The big nerf list (patch 1.2) (WIP)

[divjak]

 

i have played chanter/monk, and did some fights solo, and monk has a flagellant path, same thing really, except in that kind of gameplay weaker because of lack of cleaving stance. I have never thought that brilliant would change anything significant

Flagellant's Path doesn't do a full attack to every enemy hit along the path, it does a small amount of crush damage. It's significantly less powerful than charge.

 

Anyway I'm bowing out of this argument. It's not going anywhere.

 

and yet i would still clear solo on POTD without brilliant 

 

so lets see, me using a weaker combination for charging gameplay get to win this faster without brilliance and without spending all  of the mortification, than stronger fighter set with brilliance. hmmm

 

maybe  because i  didnt use brilliance,  but tornado or paralyze instead 

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[Zeitzbach]

It really shows when Brilliant is really only good for super immortal char because they don't have to worry about braindead enemies. Dps type just burn through it too fast to really use brilliant.

 

And Unbending can just be turned into regen to make it possible to still kill the character especially if Reduced healing is used. There should even be a T3 sickness that disable healing while it's around. Is there even one?

[divjak]

It really shows when Brilliant is really only good for super immortal char because they don't have to worry about braindead enemies. Dps type just burn through it too fast to really use brilliant.

 

And Unbending can just be turned into regen to make it possible to still kill the character especially if Reduced healing is used. There should even be a T3 sickness that disable healing while it's around. Is there even one?

all of this is countered with 1 point cast ranger ability which no enemy ever uses.

-30 seconds on all buffs, means briliance, unbending or whatever is over or close to over, with addition that attack interrupts as well 

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[theBalthazar]

If all ranger and wizard have this, try this spell/ability become useless.

 

So the best is to re-think deeply the two concerned abilities.

Edited May 19, 2018 by theBalthazar

[PIRI]

Everyone forgot about Salvation of Time. Salvation of Time + Barring Death's Door + Brilliant Inspiration = whole group immortal for eternity, none of buffs will ever end.

[theBalthazar]

Thanks to whom Salvation of time is good ?

subsequently, the main problem is indeed brilliant. It put a loophole in the machine.

[divjak]

If all ranger and wizard have this, try this spell/ability become useless.

 

So the best is to re-think deeply the two concerned abilities.

no, that  just means they become priority.

 

you need  to develop different tactics  to get rid of them before you can enable your buff combo.

 

What we get is that enemies get tools to counter, that makes game harder, rather then nerfing something you didnt  even played with, because in your pipe dream its OP

:D

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[Zeitzbach]

I rather enemies be threatening that us having to be nerfed down to their level of incompetence.

 

If enemies are really strong enough, then we just need to fix the whole Stealth Disengage or Pre-cast spell free shot abuse.

 

Like, for example, Empower can only be used once the combat has already begun. No more Pre-cast instawipe Maelstorm. Have to do it in combat instead which is riskier if the enemy ranger actually deal damage.

[divjak]

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Arcane_Dampener

[divjak]

I rather enemies be threatening that us having to be nerfed down to their level of incompetence.

 

If enemies are really strong enough, then we just need to fix the whole Stealth Disengage or Pre-cast spell free shot abuse.

 

Like, for example, Empower can only be used once the combat has already begun. No more Pre-cast instawipe Maelstorm. Have to do it in combat instead which is riskier if the enemy ranger actually deal damage.

thats precisely it, all this calls  for nerfs wouldn't change anything, because  most  people  here have no clue, its all pipe dream theorycrafting, people dream up combos they dont play with, or understand in practice, while most faceroll POTD with basic stuff  

 

things like giving enemies better AI, and more tools would be more benifitial, have them focus fire, disable  buffs, chain paralyze and so on... then we get harder game 

also cheseing out in and out of combat was bane of every RPG  i ever played  

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[Zeitzbach]

THey need to design some ridiculous scripted encounter like having enemy rogue start in stealth and so on or put a debuff on you before a fight starts. There's only 1 of that in PoE 2 and you have to step into a trap at the Zombie Island for them to scale the tower and surround you.

 

Like PoE 1 had that White March Elevator where you are surrounded and have an injury slapped on your to make your team weaker and powerful AoE with friendlyfire harder to use.

 

The other kind of design is a long fight like the one at the Old City near the spot where you get a unique item from a corpse at the top right and the rotghast start waking up 1 by 1. Another is the Berath Temple where skeletons start spawning as you kill more of them.

 

There's no way to prevent cheese because of human creativity when it comes to exploit. Anyone can youtube a walkthrough and beat any encounter frm just repeating the steps. You can only make em harder to pull off.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Arcane_Dampener

More classes need a dampener like effect, it's too useful to lock it behind wizards only.

[Zeitzbach]

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Arcane_Dampener

More classes need a dampener like effect, it's too useful to lock it behind wizards only.

 

 

Priest can erase with Magran though that takes ages and RAnger just flat out remove 30 secs off every buff in one shot for only 1 bond. Paladins can also stop it and arcane dampener can be found on items too.

 

Like, it's really the game AI fault that level scaling and bloated stat does not fix. I was fighting the Principi at the end of the game that although intended to be a very easy fight, it was sad watching a level 20 mage using..

 

Minelotta MINOR missile.

 

AT LEVEL 20.

 

THat thing couldn't even penetrate my squishies armor and did like 30 damage.

[Ryz009]

I find it funny no one is talking about Arcana scrolls. Extremely cheap. Some of the T9 mats can be bought and 15 arcana isn't hard to get.

 

Also they only take like 1.5 seconds to cast a meteor storm or a maelstorm.

 

I dropped one Maelstorm for the lol with a level 15 takehu and he killed 90% of concelhaut torn banner merc before they even walk through the bridge.

 

Any spells with long cast time but op effect you want to break? Just toss the scroll.

 

Leave my op scrolls alone. Plus hardly anyone uses consumables anyway.

 

Besides arcana is useless otherwise.

[Zeitzbach]

 

I find it funny no one is talking about Arcana scrolls. Extremely cheap. Some of the T9 mats can be bought and 15 arcana isn't hard to get.

 

Also they only take like 1.5 seconds to cast a meteor storm or a maelstorm.

 

I dropped one Maelstorm for the lol with a level 15 takehu and he killed 90% of concelhaut torn banner merc before they even walk through the bridge.

 

Any spells with long cast time but op effect you want to break? Just toss the scroll.

 

Leave my op scrolls alone. Plus hardly anyone uses consumables anyway.

 

Besides arcana is useless otherwise.

 

 

You're fortunate there's no Salvo scroll. At least Maelstorm can't kill bosses. Salvo can. Salvo is the major reason why I never got to see Ukaizo as a 3-headed machine dragon. You have to drag the fight out to make sure he gets all 3 heads.

[dunehunter]

 

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Arcane_Dampener

More classes need a dampener like effect, it's too useful to lock it behind wizards only.

Priest can erase with Magran though that takes ages and RAnger just flat out remove 30 secs off every buff in one shot for only 1 bond. Paladins can also stop it and arcane dampener can be found on items too.

 

Like, it's really the game AI fault that level scaling and bloated stat does not fix. I was fighting the Principi at the end of the game that although intended to be a very easy fight, it was sad watching a level 20 mage using..

 

Minelotta MINOR missile.

 

AT LEVEL 20.

 

THat thing couldn't even penetrate my squishies armor and did like 30 damage.

How can paladin dispel spells?

[Sotnik]

2.  Invisibility Solo in general allows you to reset fights. So kill a mob, go invis, run out of range to get out of combat,  spam restealth, keep doing that 1 by 1 each mob (if you even need to with gambit and smoke cloud 1 shot spam). Could potentially be absolutely broken for future POTD achievements. Mayhaps they will strengthen POTD AI for that solo invis/stealth. 

 

I also read that you can skip almost all the fights in the game (even some "end game bosses") with Invisibility. I think most problems with Invisibility could be solved if: 1) being invisible within the enemies' vision range would not cease the combat; 2) enemies would move towards the invisible character to some degree unless they have other priorities. 3) make more combat encounters unskippable/inescapable.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Sotnik

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Arcane_Dampener

More classes need a dampener like effect, it's too useful to lock it behind wizards only.

Priest can erase with Magran though that takes ages and RAnger just flat out remove 30 secs off every buff in one shot for only 1 bond. Paladins can also stop it and arcane dampener can be found on items too.

 

Like, it's really the game AI fault that level scaling and bloated stat does not fix. I was fighting the Principi at the end of the game that although intended to be a very easy fight, it was sad watching a level 20 mage using..

 

Minelotta MINOR missile.

 

AT LEVEL 20.

 

THat thing couldn't even penetrate my squishies armor and did like 30 damage.

How can paladin dispel spells?

 

 

I made a mistake with Liberating skill thinking it was anti-beneficial and didn't go back to fix that post.

 

Just give anyone the broom then. That thing takes like 10 sec off buffs per hit.

 

 

 

 

I also read that you can skip almost all the fights in the game (even some "end game bosses") with Invisibility. I think most problems with Invisibility could be solved if: 1) being invisible within the enemies' vision range would not cease the combat; 2) enemies would move towards the invisible character to some degree unless they have other priorities. 3) make more combat encounters unskippable/inescapable.

 

 

Use the new stealth detection on the invisible char, just without the cone of vision. When you stay in the detection area, your detection goes up and once it goes fully red, you are revealed. This goes up slower with talents, items and points into stealth.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Sotnik]

 

Use the new stealth detection on the invisible char, just without the cone of vision. When you stay in the detection area, your detection goes up and once it goes fully red, you are revealed. This goes up slower with talents, items and points into stealth.

 

 

I don't know how this would help

Edited May 19, 2018 by Sotnik

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

Use the new stealth detection on the invisible char, just without the cone of vision. When you stay in the detection area, your detection goes up and once it goes fully red, you are revealed. This goes up slower with talents, items and points into stealth.

 

 

I don't know how this would help

 

 

It's the only fair mechanic that can easily be implemented into the game without killing the stealth options entirely. Unless you invest in stealth and runs real fast, the invisibility spell will expire. And choke points with enemies preventing them will reveal you because the circle goes up much faster when you're in a crowd.

 

It's the only way to fix stealth mechanic without resorting to creating skills that completetly illuminate area or creating anti-invisibility monster.

[Sotnik]

 

 

 

Use the new stealth detection on the invisible char, just without the cone of vision. When you stay in the detection area, your detection goes up and once it goes fully red, you are revealed. This goes up slower with talents, items and points into stealth.

 

 

I don't know how this would help

 

 

It's the only fair mechanic that can easily be implemented into the game without killing the stealth options entirely. Unless you invest in stealth and runs real fast, the invisibility spell will expire. And choke points with enemies preventing them will reveal you because the circle goes up much faster when you're in a crowd.

 

It's the only way to fix stealth mechanic without resorting to creating skills that completetly illuminate area or creating anti-invisibility monster.

 

 

 

There are 2 problems:

1) The sound detection is limited in range.

2) The sound detection is predictable.

 

 

Another option: whenever an invisible character moves, the enemies make a perception check for revealing him/her once per 1d4 seconds. Plus, as I have mentioned:

1) being invisible within the enemies' vision range should not cease the combat; (necessary)

2) enemies would slowly move towards the invisible character to close distance unless they have other priorities; (desirable)

3) make more combat encounters unskippable/inescapable (desirable).

 

If this is too complicated and there is no better alternative, I am afraid it would be better to scrap the AI aspect of the invisibility mechanic and replace it with (untargetable) + (cannot be engaged) + (high resistances buff) + (backstab and assassinate buffs). If "untargetable" leads to the AI entirely ignoring the invisible character, Invisibility should not have this property.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Sotnik

[Wiegraf Folles]

I do not see the issue with empower doubling spell damage. If you empower yourself, you get +1 spell use of the all spells. You could have cast 1 high level spell, 1 empowered high level spell, or you could cast 3 high level spell + 8 lower level spells. As it stands, I find empowering self far more useful.

[AndreaColombo]

My .02 after trying the Brilliant inspiration, the healing chant, and other things.

 

• Brilliant didn't change my play style or break my game at all. By the point you get it, you're already powerful enough that you can auto-attack your way through any fight (except perhaps 20th-level boss fights, which still require a modicum of thought and manual intervention if you're level 15) and I wasn't really starved for resource points anyway. I understand how it can make a difference for solo play, where resource points are much more scarce, but I thought we agreed the game shouldn't be balanced around solo play? Ultimately, I'm OK if it's nerfed but also if it isn't.
• The healing chant is indeed very good, but again it doesn't make a difference if enemies can't already kill you without it. I agree it would still be plenty useful if it was nerfed to 75% or even 50% (my suggestion would be to try 75% first; if it still feels too powerful, then nerf again to 50%), but there are other things that must be fixed before the chant becomes a real problem, IMO.
• Unbending and its upgrades shouldn't benefit from anything that boosts healing, as someone else has already pointed out in this thread. At 50% and 75%, they are crazy good abilities—which I think is fair given their cost and how late they come, provided that they stay like that and don't scale up all the way to 100% or more via boosts. Clearly anything that makes you immortal should be unintended.
• No ability should be able to proc itself. I'll never grow tired of repeating this. A single ability that chain procs until everyone is dead with a single swing of your weapon is obviously a no-no.
• Charge could be changed from Full Attack to Primary Attack to enemies on the path. Not the main source of concern, but I understand it makes DW Fighters too good compared to non-DW Fighters.
• No ability, empowered or otherwise, should be able to one-shot bosses. Either reduce the impact of Empower, increase bosses' HP, reduce the damage of certain spells, or any combination of these but no one-shotting bosses, please.

 

As for Empower, 90% of the time I either don't use it, or use to replenish my resource pool if I ran out. I rarely use it to actually Empower a spell or an ability. A matter of play style, I'm sure.

 

My experience with PotD so far:

 

• The moment you reach 10th level, nothing's a challenge for you anymore unless you deliberately pick way over-leveled fights. I'm not particularly good at this, and PotD in the first game was too hard for me from 1st to about 5th-6th level; yet I could beat Deadfire on PotD the first time, with little to no meta-knowledge. At 15th level, you can beat anything without too much effort (and that's with story companions and a non-min/maxed character.)
• I found enemies' HP to be adequate, but they could use a slight increase to their accuracy, damage, defenses, and armor rating. Some could stand with a slightly faster attack/action speed as well. Dragons should have a powerful alpha-strike breath like in the first game.
• Enemies should be able to identify and counter at least some of the player's combos, and/or execute good combos themselves. Can't fight high-level enemies who only use low-level abilities with no strategy; of course there's no challenge like that!

 

Until this is resolved, nerfing abilities won't do much good as you can win any fight via mere auto-attacking. First, force me to think over my moves to win fights; then, rebalance abilities so that I can't one-shot bosses or chain-slaughter packs of enemies in one swing.

Edited May 20, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[Bugged Wolf Companion]

Fact for me is Potd is too easy. For me its a mode that should be very challenging for a group of 5 and should be near impossible solo.

 

By that definition PotD needs clearly revalance. Want easy game? Good play on easy difficulty.

 

Some builds would not even work in pillars 1 potd vecause of the huge accuracy requirements which in my opinion was good. Atleast 50% of the current cheese builds would be trashed by upping the accuracy requirements of PotD so that its not a dump stat anymore.

[Elric Galad]

My .02 after trying the Brilliant inspiration, the healing chant, and other things.

 

• Brilliant didn't change my play style or break my game at all. By the point you get it, you're already powerful enough that you can auto-attack your way through any fight (except perhaps 20th-level boss fights, which still require a modicum of thought and manual intervention if you're level 15) and I wasn't really starved for resource points anyway. I understand how it can make a difference for solo play, where resource points are much more scarce, but I thought we agreed the game shouldn't be balanced around solo play? Ultimately, I'm OK if it's nerfed but also if it isn't.
• The healing chant is indeed very good, but again it doesn't make a difference if enemies can't already kill you without it. I agree it would still be plenty useful if it was nerfed to 75% or even 50% (my suggestion would be to try 75% first; if it still feels too powerful, then nerf again to 50%), but there are other things that must be fixed before the chant becomes a real problem, IMO.
• Unbending and its upgrades shouldn't benefit from anything that boosts healing, as someone else has already pointed out in this thread. At 50% and 75%, they are crazy good abilities—which I think is fair given their cost and how late they come, provided that they stay like that and don't scale up all the way to 100% or more via boosts. Clearly anything that makes you immortal should be unintended.
• No ability should be able to proc itself. I'll never grow tired of repeating this. A single ability that chain procs until everyone is dead with a single swing of your weapon is obviously a no-no.
• Charge could be changed from Full Attack to Primary Attack to enemies on the path. Not the main source of concern, but I understand it makes DW Fighters too good compared to non-DW Fighters.
• No ability, empowered or otherwise, should be able to one-shot bosses. Either reduce the impact of Empower, increase bosses' HP, reduce the damage of certain spells, or any combination of these but no one-shotting bosses, please.

 

As for Empower, 90% of the time I either don't use it, or use to replenish my resource pool if I ran out. I rarely use it to actually Empower a spell or an ability. A matter of play style, I'm sure.

 

My experience with PotD so far:

 

• The moment you reach 10th level, nothing's a challenge for you anymore unless you deliberately pick way over-leveled fights. I'm not particularly good at this, and PotD in the first game was too hard for me from 1st to about 5th-6th level; yet I could beat Deadfire on PotD the first time, with little to no meta-knowledge. At 15th level, you can beat anything without too much effort (and that's with story companions and a non-min/maxed character.)
• I found enemies' HP to be adequate, but they could use a slight increase to their accuracy, damage, defenses, and armor rating. Some could stand with a slightly faster attack/action speed as well. Dragons should have a powerful alpha-strike breath like in the first game.
• Enemies should be able to identify and counter at least some of the player's combos, and/or execute good combos themselves. Can't fight high-level enemies who only use low-level abilities with no strategy; of course there's no challenge like that!

 

Until this is resolved, nerfing abilities won't do much good as you can win any fight via mere auto-attacking. First, force me to think over my moves to win fights; then, rebalance abilities so that I can't one-shot bosses or chain-slaughter packs of enemies in one swing.

 

I agree with all this.

 

The current priority is to correct Broken abilities and make the game more difficult.

 

Nature Godlike may be too strong, but not broken.

Same for cleave. Cleave from cleave from cleave is a problem, but I'm rather happy to see Fighter getting a bit of love. 

 

Then, there will be obviously many things to balance but it might come later.

Having a couple of abilites a bit OP for each class (Fighter Stances, Gambit, Swift Flurry, Devotion for the Faithful) isn't a true problem. It might even help defining classes as it did in PoE1.