Might VS PER VS DEX and RES VS CON

[Wiegraf Folles]

So, I was wondering which stat was more important than the other according to build (DPS, CC, Tank), and I have come to the following conclusions:

 

Might: additive % increase of damage. With no modifier, at 18, you get 24% increase. With modifiers, the effect is less noticeable. For example, if you get a 50% buff modifier in your damage, might will add and becomes 74% more damage, which means 16% increase.

 

Dex: additive % to attack speed and recovery. Assuming you are wearing no armor, at 18 you get 1/1.24 turn time which means 24% more damage over time. If you have the heaviest armor (+55%) recovery speed, it adds negatively to the fraction. Assuming you are a caster, with 4s cast time and 4s recovery time, wearing the heaviest armor, at 18 dex you take 3.2s to cast and 5.8s to recover, totaling 9s of spellcasting, vs 4s+8.9s=12.9s at 10 dex for a caster, which means around 43% damage increase. For a pistolier wearing the heaviest armor, you get 1.1s+11.1s=12.2s at 10 dex and 0.9+7.2s=8.1s at 18 dex which is 50% damage increase.

 

Per: additive increase to accuracy. In terms of damage, at 18 per it means approximately 17% multiplicative damage, on average, vs 10 Per (if your accuracy equals enemy defense at 10 per). Flat out better than Might when you get a 50% buff modifier to your damage. It also increases CC duration (due to increasing hit and crit hit chance) and increases the chance to trigger some beneficial perks, besides its use for finding traps and hidden items.

 

So, in terms of damage, it seems DEX>MIGHT>PER at early game. PER may be >MIGHT under certain circumnstances.

 

 

Con: % increase to HP. At 18 CONS, you can get at least 40% more hits before dying, on average.

 

Res: additive increase to Deflection. In terms of damage reduction against deflect type damage, at 18 Res, it means you can take approximately 13% more "hits" before dying, if your deflection is equal the enemy accuracy at 10 Res. However, its effects are coumpounded. So, if you are wearing a large shield, weapon and shield style, single combat instance,  and a cloak of deflection+4, a char with 18 Res would take 24% more hits than a char with 10Res, wearing the same equipment. Deflection, however, only affect deflection-based attacks, vs the universal use of CON. Keep in midn, however, that RES also affects hostile effect duration, which can adversely affect you if you get stunned, prone, etc.

 

So, in terms of tanking, CON>RES.

 

 

Should you dump one stat to raise another?

 

 

Dumping RES to pump CON: you can take 20% more "hits".

 

Dumping MIGHT to pump DEX: You deal 4% less damage if you have no damage buff. Starting at 21% damage buff, dex pump starts to pay-off.

 

Dump PER to pump MIGHT: You get 20% damage increase with no damage buff. At around 70% damage buff, Per is more beneficial than Might.

 

Dump MIGHT to pump PER: You deal 17% less damage in the worst case scenario, on average.

 

 

General conclusion:

 

DEX>PER=MIGHT for DPS in the long run, on average. Don't dump PER because it also affects your CC abilities (knock down, stun, etc). Dump MIGHT and pump DEX or PER.

 

CON>RES, to the point that it is generally worth dumping RES to pump CON without a second thought. Just keep in mind that against CC, you will probably suffer a bit more.

 

 

If you are min-maxing your tank, you will want to dump MIGHT. If you are min-maxing your DPS, you will want to dump RES. If you are CCing, you will want to dump either MIGHT or RES.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Wiegraf Folles

[Yosharian]

Can we get a confirmation on which attributes are used for conversation checks?  Someone told me RES isn't used at all!  I'd like to know exactly which attributes are used, and which aren't.

 

> Dumping RES to pump CON: you can take 20% more "hits".

 

This ignores the fact that survivability in combat is often dictated by the amount of healing being output, not the amount of overall 'hits' a character can absorb.

 

> So, if you are wearing a large shield, weapon and shield style, single combat instance,  and a cloak of deflection+4, a char with 18 Res would take 24% more hits than a char with 10Res, wearing the same equipment. 

More RES equals more hits taken?  Whut?

Edited May 13, 2018 by Yosharian

[Zzz]

Your math some wrong.

PER better than MIGHT bcs too many on-crit effect. Something like +100% crit dmg, repeat attack or paralyze totally outweigh MIGHT bonuses.

Also, we have many sources of increase attack dmg, but very limited way to increase acc. 

With spell usually we cant take many buff to dmg, so there MIGHT look better. But power level still affected spell dmg, when acc still the same - so PER>MIGHT too.

 

About DEX - a lot of buff speed or recovery stiff here. As example, you have 5.2 sec to double attack+reload with 10 dex, and only 4.4. with 21 dex. And you can do this more faster, like 2 sec to double attack+reload. So DEX important when you have huge penalty, or cant stack recovery bonuses. Keep in mind, you can found weapon with 75% speed buff, which equivalented 35 dex.  So i think PER>DEX>MIGHT.

 

CON and RES -  and now you wrong. Evry point of avoidance have increase weight depends of heal gain and how many avoidance you have. As example, if you have 100 HP base, 50 def and 20 CON, you have 200 HP. If you have 20 RES- you have 100 hp, but 60% def. And you take 20% less dmg, so after 100/0.2 = 500 incoming dmg RES>CON. If you have 80 def, 10 RES get you half dmg.

And keep in mind on-crit effect, which can totally break this balance.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Zzz

[Sotnik]

We cannot consider the attributes without knowing the other variables. If a character can get +100 speed, Dex becomes redundant. If the character can get +100% damage, Might becomes less important.

Might affects damage only; Dex is good for any non-instant action (weapon switch is an exception I believe). On the other hand, Might becomes more important in regards to limited resource points.

 

As for Con and Res it is not so simple because many melee attacks target Fortitude. However, If you are capable to deal with such attacks with CC, keeping distance or another way, it becomes less important. Having little Will can make your life very unpleasant, although I don't know if it is a useless stat in solo play as it was in PoE1.

 

Upd: I have just read about the weird malus formula and now I am thinking that it is generally reasonable to avoid negative numbers in attribute derivatives.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98679-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery-time-reload-time/

Edited May 13, 2018 by Sotnik

[angryusaman]

Isn't might one of the only ways to increase healing done, making it more important for healers?  What other options do healers have besides might that will increase their healing?  I know there are some items that increase healing received but that's all I can think of at the moment.

[Sotnik]

Isn't might one of the only ways to increase healing done, making it more important for healers?  What other options do healers have besides might that will increase their healing?  I know there are some items that increase healing received but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Does Might affect both healing received and done?

[angryusaman]

Might only affects healing done and not healing received.

[Climhazzard]

This game has items and buffs that increase healing done.  For example the dawn star blessing at the start of the game gives +50% healing done for the MC.

[Yosharian]

I think you need just enough CON to avoid getting burst down by crits, etc.

 

Other than that, CON is not a 'tanking' attribute really.

[Arnegar]

Might is most useful when you don't get a bunch of other percentile bonuses. It's additive now, not multiplicative like in beta. If you get like +100% damage from various sources, getting another 24% from might doesn't do that much. Meanwhile, spellcasters don't get many of these bonuses so might's additive damage is very valuable on spells.

 

There's a lot of other minor considerations, though. If you're a tank and trying to manage what passes for aggro in this game, you should not dump your might and perception into oblivion. The way engagement works, mobs will take your attributes into account when calculating whether or not to break engagement with you. If they see that you have like a 20% chance to hit and your blows do 8 damage on average, they won't stick on you. If instead you have decent accuracy and high might, as well as something like Overbearing Guard, they're scared of your disengagement attacks and will be much less liable to wander off and kill your wizards.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Arnegar

[Noctaem]

Might is the best of the 3 damage stats because at 20 it gives a straight +30% damage multiplier to all your damage.  The other 2, Dex and Perception can't compete with that kind of multiplier.  I would order them from Might>Dex>Perception.  From there Intellect is good for DPS builds that use AOE like the Assassin Rogue/Evoker Wizard.  Not as important on the single target DPS outside of defense.  

 

Minimum CON I would recommend on a character would be 7.  Outside of specific builds, most will set this to 7-8.

 

Example:

 

damage on my attack is 5.9-11.8 

 

I look at my bonuses, says 3-6 base.  +36% from Might and +60% legendary bonus.  3-6 becomes 5.9-11.8

 

Take off legendary and you get 5-8 base, +36% from Might = 6.8-10.9

 

Someone's math isn't correct here I think and some people are confused on if Might is multiplicative or Additive.  But that 60% from legendary doesn't seem to do much so I'm going to assume that's only additive while the one from Might is a multiplier.  Am I correct?

Edited May 13, 2018 by Noctaem

[Irori]

Might is the best of the 3 damage stats because at 20 it gives a straight +30% damage multiplier to all your damage.

 

Might is now additive instead of multiplication according to https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/97530-might-turns-from-multiplier-into-additive-bonus/

thus the premise is false.

 

Right now potd/scaling seems to be broken, so accuracy is less of a factor.  I think there is a lot of value in high accuracy in resource generation, making debuffs hit, and there are a lot of talents which give benefits to crit (such as monk being able to echo attacks).  

[Wiegraf Folles]

More RES equals more hits taken?  Whut?

 

Yes, in the sense that: 1-You will avoid some of the hits (that is why I called "hits"); 2-You will get more grazes than hits; 3- You will avoid criticals.

 

I used the term "hits" so I could properly compare to Health. If you have 10% avoidance and 90 Health, and each hit, if proc'ed, would deal 10 damage, you can take on average 10 "hits", because one of the "hits" will miss.

[Wiegraf Folles]

We cannot consider the attributes without knowing the other variables. If a character can get +100 speed, Dex becomes redundant. If the character can get +100% damage, Might becomes less important.

Might affects damage only; Dex is good for any non-instant action (weapon switch is an exception I believe). On the other hand, Might becomes more important in regards to limited resource points.

 

As for Con and Res it is not so simple because many melee attacks target Fortitude. However, If you are capable to deal with such attacks with CC, keeping distance or another way, it becomes less important. Having little Will can make your life very unpleasant, although I don't know if it is a useless stat in solo play as it was in PoE1.

 

Upd: I have just read about the weird malus formula and now I am thinking that it is generally reasonable to avoid negative numbers in attribute derivatives.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98679-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery-time-reload-time/

 

 

Indeed, if you already have 100% increase in attack speed, the additional 21% from +7 will not be very significant. As it is the case with might if you have a high multiplier. However, dex also affect CC spellcasting time, CC melee ability, and, as far as I am concerned, it is far easier to add damage than to increase attack speed (e.g. empower and power level greatly dimish the importance of Might as their bonus sum with it, rather than multiply it).

 

Regarding the derivative statistics (Will, Fortitude, Reflex) it is uncommon to dump them, since they are governed by 2 different attributes. You can only dump 2 attributes anyway, and as long as the ones you are dumping do not govern the same statistic (MIGHT+CON; PER+DEX;INT+RES) you should be fine.

 

Examples:

 

CC: Dumping MIGHT and RES and pumping everything else to 17 and 18 makes an excelent CC with no immediate drawbacks. Average survivability (CON compensating RES), good damage output (PER+DEX compensating MIGHT), very fast (DEX) and precise (PER), with outrageous reflexes.

 

TANK: Dumping Might and INT on your tank will make you with good damage output (PER+DEX compensating MIGHT), precise (PER), fast (DEX) and with high survivability (+CON+RES)

 

 

The only one that requires some sacrifice is a full DPS, where your only option is to dump RES and CON, leaving you with low survivability in exchange for DPS (and being as good with CC).

[Yosharian]

 

 

More RES equals more hits taken? Whut?

Yes, in the sense that: 1-You will avoid some of the hits (that is why I called "hits"); 2-You will get more grazes than hits; 3- You will avoid criticals.

 

I used the term "hits" so I could properly compare to Health. If you have 10% avoidance and 90 Health, and each hit, if proc'ed, would deal 10 damage, you can take on average 10 "hits", because one of the "hits" will miss.

Yes but the greater your Deflection, the more of those hits will graze/miss, so you're taking less hits not more hits.

 

On the other hand the lower your Deflection, the more hits/crits you will take.

 

What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

[Wiegraf Folles]

 

 

More RES equals more hits taken? Whut?

Yes, in the sense that: 1-You will avoid some of the hits (that is why I called "hits"); 2-You will get more grazes than hits; 3- You will avoid criticals.

 

I used the term "hits" so I could properly compare to Health. If you have 10% avoidance and 90 Health, and each hit, if proc'ed, would deal 10 damage, you can take on average 10 "hits", because one of the "hits" will miss.

Yes but the greater your Deflection, the more of those hits will graze/miss, so you're taking less hits not more hits.

 

On the other hand the lower your Deflection, the more hits/crits you will take.

 

What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Well, read again, then, while changing word "hit" to "enemy endurance-subtracting action against you that targets deflection", whenever we are talking about resolve. I prefer to use the word "hit", even when it does not actually hit. Because I'd rather work with real numbers (as in, the set) instead of devolving the discussion toward the strict meaning of a word.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Wiegraf Folles

[Yosharian]

 

 

 

More RES equals more hits taken? Whut?

Yes, in the sense that: 1-You will avoid some of the hits (that is why I called "hits"); 2-You will get more grazes than hits; 3- You will avoid criticals.

 

I used the term "hits" so I could properly compare to Health. If you have 10% avoidance and 90 Health, and each hit, if proc'ed, would deal 10 damage, you can take on average 10 "hits", because one of the "hits" will miss.

Yes but the greater your Deflection, the more of those hits will graze/miss, so you're taking less hits not more hits.

 

On the other hand the lower your Deflection, the more hits/crits you will take.

 

What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Well, read again, then, while changing word "hit" to "enemy endurance-subtracting action against you that targets deflection", whenever we are talking about resolve. I prefer to use the word "hit", even when it does not actually hit. Because I'd rather work with real numbers (as in, the set) instead of devolving the discussion toward the strict meaning of a word.

 

 

[Loog]

in my opinion res is way better than cons for "non-tank".

 

It's simple : the AI won't bother targeting your backline / squishy if they have enough deflection.

 

Equipped my priest with a small shield, average res, dump cons : nobody cares about him.

[marc5477]

This has been studied in many games in the past. Since everything is additive the math is actually pretty easy but it is highly dependent on the weapon or abilities/spells you want to use.

The bottom line however, is none of it matters if you dont hit your target and with low perception, you may not be able to hit difficult enemies rendering you nearly impotent. Only perception has this dramatic negative side effect so in general, until we know exactly what the top deflection is in the game, you are better off pushing perception to make sure you can hit the toughest things in the game. Hitting also has a lot of secondary perks such as increase crit % and depending on the class you play, better consistency for ability use. For example, a pillar monk will want perception for consistent wounds. A rogue/barb will get more crits... etc.

I believe that both dex and might are linear so ultimately its a wash and you should go with whichever offers a better secondary effect for the character. Another thing to consider, that a lot of players are too quick to ignore, is the value of resists. If you are weak at fort due to dumping con, then you might want to pick up might over dex. If you are a class that grants a lot of fort, then maybe you should take dex to improve reflex. In terms of builds, a crit hit build which generates special points based on number of crits (not how hard they hit) will benefit more dex than might. Casters with limited number of spells are obviously better off with harder hitting spells rather than faster casting.

Edited May 14, 2018 by marc5477