do ranger/cipher animal companion attacks build focus for the ranger?

[Michael_Galt]

The title says it all.  I was wondering if anyone who has played the beta can answer this question. 

 

Also, if the answer is "No", then it seems to me it should be "Yes".  Since animal companions are BONDED to the ranger (unless the ranger is a ghostheart), they are essentially an EXTENSION of the ranger.  I mean, the ranger will suffer penalties if the animal companion is killed (incapacitated?), which is more than would happen if say, the ranger were to "break" one of their weapons.  If a ranger broke a weapon, that would be bad, but it wouldn't physically and psychically damage the ranger. 

 

So... since ciphers gain focus through interacting with other things which have souls, it seems to me, that they should gain focus if their animal companion is doing the same thing, since the cipher/ranger has a special bond with their animal companion.  This WOULDN'T apply to other cipher multiclasses, say a chanter, because they don't have any special BONDS with the creatures or things they summon... unlike the ranger animal companion.

[HAWmaro]

I think the answer is no and it should be no, ONLY weapon damage builds focus for obvious balance reason, If we're to follow the logic you're implying then litterally any ability a cipher multiclasse has should generate focus like a wizard fire ball, also including cipher own abilities.Which is of course against the entire concept of the classe.  

Also adding arteficial synergies like that seems like a bad design IMO, just let the classe abilities interact and build synergies naturally.

 

Edit: To add another point, cipher generate focus using their soul whip which is similar to an enchantement they can genrate around their WEAPON, so even lore wise it doesn't really make sense.

Edited May 7, 2018 by HAWmaro

[Michael_Galt]

I think the answer is no and it should be no, ONLY weapon damage builds focus for obvious balance reason, If we're to follow the logic you're implying then litterally any ability a cipher multiclasse has should generate focus like a wizard fire ball, also including cipher own abilities.Which is of course against the entire concept of the classe.  

Also adding arteficial synergies like that seems like a bad design IMO, just let the classe abilities interact and build synergies naturally.

 

Edit: To add another point, cipher generate focus using their soul whip which is similar to an enchantement they can genrate around their WEAPON, so even lore wise it doesn't really make sense.

 

This isn't accurate at all.  The ranger literally has a PSYCHIC connection to his BONDED animal companion.  That means he is aware of when it is experiencing pain, and that is why he suffers from bonded grief if it is killed or incapacitated.  That is why you can SEE around your animal companion if you send it into the fog of war, but you CAN'T see around your summons if you do the same thing.  There is no psychic connection with summons. 

 

Furthermore, the ciphers gains their focus because they are interacting with something in a physical manner.  They touch things, they can get a "feel" for the soul remnants on it.  They are in combat with someone, everytime they deliver a blow, they can begin to better understand the makeup of the soul of their opponent.  They still get it when they are using ranged weapons because they PHYSICALLY touched the ball(firearm) or the arrow/bolt(bow/crossbow).  That then hits the opponent, which allows them to quickly gather focus.  From a lore perspective, it makes 100% sense that if a cipher is ALSO a ranger, and has a BONDED animal companion, with which they share a PSYCHIC[soul] link, that if that animal companion strikes an opponent, the cipher would gain focus.  The animal companion is LITERALLY an EXTENSION of the cipher/ranger's soul. 

 

Why does that not apply to a wizard/cipher or chanter/cipher or priest/cipher or druid/cipher?  The wizard isn't physically making a fireball.  That is magic, drawing from the power of the caster's soul(s).  The caster has no PHYSICAL or PSYCHIC connection to that fireball... unlike a ranger/cipher, who DOES have those connections to and with their animal companion. None of those other casting classes have a psychic or physical connection to those attacks either... unlike the ranger/cipher.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Michael_Galt

[anathanielh]

Looking from a mechanics perspective, that seems overpowered as all hell, even if the pet gives a reduce amount of focus (As it potentially allows the cipher to generate his/her power pool by doing absolutely nothing). I'm gonna guess a hard no.

[Michael_Galt]

Looking from a mechanics perspective, that seems overpowered as all hell, even if the pet gives a reduce amount of focus (As it potentially allows the cipher to generate his/her power pool by doing absolutely nothing). I'm gonna guess a hard no.

 

I don't see why this would matter.  The drawbacks to multiclassing are that you don't get those last 2 tiers of abilities for either class.  You also get reduced power levels in both.  So even if your ranger/cipher generates focus more quickly than even a single class cipher, it isn't like his abilities are as powerful or effective. 

 

A fighter/cipher or barbarian/cipher is probably going to be generating their focus at an even higher rate.  Should they arbitrarily throttle their ability to generate focus because they are more effective classes at striking opponents and forcing engagement? (which, when combined with attacks which strike multiple opponents at once, will generate a TON of focus)

 

If you compare the number of successful attacks by a ranger + animal companion, I doubt that it is greater than a fighter/cipher or barbarian/cipher. 

 

Not only that, but from the LORE perspective, there seems to be nearly no justification for NOT having the attacks of the animal companion generate focus.  I don't even think it should be 100% focus gain (from each animal companion attack), but something like 10-25% of what the ranger would gain from their own attacks.  It's like sending electricity over a wire- you are going to lose some, even if it is well insulated.  The ranger isn't physically touching his animal companion, but they ARE linked by their souls.  So some of that focus gain SHOULD happen.

[anathanielh]

 

Looking from a mechanics perspective, that seems overpowered as all hell, even if the pet gives a reduce amount of focus (As it potentially allows the cipher to generate his/her power pool by doing absolutely nothing). I'm gonna guess a hard no.

I don't see why this would matter. The drawbacks to multiclassing are that you don't get those last 2 tiers of abilities for either class. You also get reduced power levels in both. So even if your ranger/cipher generates focus more quickly than even a single class cipher, it isn't like his abilities are as powerful or effective.

 

A fighter/cipher or barbarian/cipher is probably going to be generating their focus at an even higher rate. Should they arbitrarily throttle their ability to generate focus because they are more effective classes at striking opponents and forcing engagement? (which, when combined with attacks which strike multiple opponents at once, will generate a TON of focus)

 

If you compare the number of successful attacks by a ranger + animal companion, I doubt that it is greater than a fighter/cipher or barbarian/cipher.

 

Not only that, but from the LORE perspective, there seems to be nearly no justification for NOT having the attacks of the animal companion generate focus. I don't even think it should be 100% focus gain (from each animal companion attack), but something like 10-25% of what the ranger would gain from their own attacks. It's like sending electricity over a wire- you are going to lose some, even if it is well insulated. The ranger isn't physically touching his animal companion, but they ARE linked by their souls. So some of that focus gain SHOULD happen.

My problem wasn’t them generating it faster. It was them potentially generating focus without doing anything. (Meaning while stunned or disabled they’re still just generating focus because of a pet) At least other class have to hit a dude before they are rewarded.

[Michael_Galt]

 

 

Looking from a mechanics perspective, that seems overpowered as all hell, even if the pet gives a reduce amount of focus (As it potentially allows the cipher to generate his/her power pool by doing absolutely nothing). I'm gonna guess a hard no.

I don't see why this would matter. The drawbacks to multiclassing are that you don't get those last 2 tiers of abilities for either class. You also get reduced power levels in both. So even if your ranger/cipher generates focus more quickly than even a single class cipher, it isn't like his abilities are as powerful or effective.

 

A fighter/cipher or barbarian/cipher is probably going to be generating their focus at an even higher rate. Should they arbitrarily throttle their ability to generate focus because they are more effective classes at striking opponents and forcing engagement? (which, when combined with attacks which strike multiple opponents at once, will generate a TON of focus)

 

If you compare the number of successful attacks by a ranger + animal companion, I doubt that it is greater than a fighter/cipher or barbarian/cipher.

 

Not only that, but from the LORE perspective, there seems to be nearly no justification for NOT having the attacks of the animal companion generate focus. I don't even think it should be 100% focus gain (from each animal companion attack), but something like 10-25% of what the ranger would gain from their own attacks. It's like sending electricity over a wire- you are going to lose some, even if it is well insulated. The ranger isn't physically touching his animal companion, but they ARE linked by their souls. So some of that focus gain SHOULD happen.

My problem wasn’t them generating it faster. It was them potentially generating focus without doing anything. (Meaning while stunned or disabled they’re still just generating focus because of a pet) At least other class have to hit a dude before they are rewarded.

 

 

If anything, this makes MORE sense.  That is the entire point of a ranger having an animal companion.  They work as a team.  If the animal companion is in trouble, a good ranger comes to the rescue, and vice versa.  Neither wants to see the other get hurt or die.  If the ranger is generating focus while incapacitated because the animal companion is busy trying to make sure it's master doesn't die... that just means that if it is successful, by the time the ranger is revived, they will be able to deliver a dangerous psychic attack. 

 

I don't see the problem with this.  A barbarian/cipher or fighter/cipher will have a greater chance to hit, and be generally more robust, than a ranger/cipher.  Rangers are typically more vulnerable than fighters or barbarians, which means that they will go down more often.  If they have a means of generating focus while incapacitated, this just makes up for the fact that they spent who knows how much time not being able to contribute to the fight because they aren't as robust.  This would again favor a fighter/cipher or barbarian/cipher multiclass if the animal companion DOESN'T generate focus, because a fighter/cipher or barbarian/cipher will go down less often than a ranger/cipher, which means they will have more opportunities to generate focus and use their abilities. 

 

My last playthrough was as a ranger, and while he wasn't a "glass cannon", I nonetheless ended up with him being knocked out 14 times throughout the entire game.  I don't know how many times Eder was knocked out, but I know it was MAYBE a handful, and he was literally always in the front lines.  I played my ranger PRINCIPALLY as a backrow sniper, but he was effective in melee as well.  His interrupt rate was off the chart, so if he needed to melee, he was typically fine, if it was a single or even 2 opponents.  But Eder could sit there with 4 engagements and just keep on going at it. 

[anathanielh]

I sincerely hope you enjoy the game, dude. I just doubt that sole mechanic is the way you want it to be. Have a day, and good luck.

[Riftis]

The description of soul whip is as follows: "Causes the cipher's weapons  to generate a field of parasitic energy that lashes out at the target, increasing Damage inflicted and generating Focus for the cipher"

 

Is your animal a weapon? No, it's your friend. I disagree with your sentiment. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Riftis

[Iceborg1307]

give the pet your weapon and wala problems now solved.

[Boeroer]

"wala"? Dude!

[tinysalamander]

Is your animal a weapon?

 

Is that a trick question?

[FlintlockJazz]

I asked this very question! I believe some thought that spending a talent to enable the pet to generate focus was a good mid-way point, or a reduced (or lower level) Reaping Knives that you could cast on it would also work. Or just cast Reaping Knives when you get it. :D

[Michael_Galt]

The description of soul whip is as follows: "Causes the cipher's weapons  to generate a field of parasitic energy that lashes out at the target, increasing Damage inflicted and generating Focus for the cipher"

 

Is your animal a weapon? No, it's your friend. I disagree with your sentiment. 

 

I would say so, given the fact that you have abilities which literally upgrade how much damage your animal companion does, and what types of attacks it has. Considering a weapon is simply a tool to cause damage to someone else... and your animal companion can do that, it IS a weapon.  You don't have to hold a weapon in your hand... like a  grenade, or missile you have fired by pushing buttons.  Given you  can specifically tell your animal companion WHO or WHAT to attack, that makes it a SENTIENT weapon.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/weapon

weapon noun

1A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.

[anathanielh]

I asked this very question! I believe some thought that spending a talent to enable the pet to generate focus was a good mid-way point, or a reduced (or lower level) Reaping Knives that you could cast on it would also work. Or just cast Reaping Knives when you get it. :D

I’m pretty sure reaping knives is T8, so multiclass can’t access it

[HAWmaro]

 

The description of soul whip is as follows: "Causes the cipher's weapons  to generate a field of parasitic energy that lashes out at the target, increasing Damage inflicted and generating Focus for the cipher"

 

Is your animal a weapon? No, it's your friend. I disagree with your sentiment. 

 

I would say so, given the fact that you have abilities which literally upgrade how much damage your animal companion does, and what types of attacks it has. Considering a weapon is simply a tool to cause damage to someone else... and your animal companion can do that, it IS a weapon.  You don't have to hold a weapon in your hand... like a  grenade, or missile you have fired by pushing buttons.  Given you  can specifically tell your animal companion WHO or WHAT to attack, that makes it a SENTIENT weapon.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/weapon

weapon noun

1A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.

 

so according to you, chanters summons are also weapons, and so are wizard spells? 

[Michael_Galt]

 

 

The description of soul whip is as follows: "Causes the cipher's weapons  to generate a field of parasitic energy that lashes out at the target, increasing Damage inflicted and generating Focus for the cipher"

 

Is your animal a weapon? No, it's your friend. I disagree with your sentiment. 

 

I would say so, given the fact that you have abilities which literally upgrade how much damage your animal companion does, and what types of attacks it has. Considering a weapon is simply a tool to cause damage to someone else... and your animal companion can do that, it IS a weapon.  You don't have to hold a weapon in your hand... like a  grenade, or missile you have fired by pushing buttons.  Given you  can specifically tell your animal companion WHO or WHAT to attack, that makes it a SENTIENT weapon.

 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/weapon

weapon noun

1A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.

 

so according to you, chanters summons are also weapons, and so are wizard spells? 

 

 

Of course they are.  If they didn't have spells or summons, would either have any weapons to speak of? They would be useless, or close to it. 

 

That doesn't change the fact that neither of those classes have a physical or psychic connection with those things.  Rangers do.  They spend years with their animal companions.  They raise them, they care for them, they communicate telepathically with them.  They have a SOUL BOND with them.  Chanters do not have soul bonds with their summons.  Wizards don't have a close, personal relationship with their magical attacks.  Again, failing to understand how these things work in the context of the Pillars of Eternity universe, based on the lore which has been presented to us. That isn't according to me, that is according to everything which was presented to us in PoE 1.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Michael_Galt

[Fardragon]

QQing is pointless. The answer to the question is "No, animal companions do not build focus".

[Michael_Galt]

QQing is pointless. The answer to the question is "No, animal companions do not build focus".

 

So, does this mean that you have tested this?  Or is this supposition? 

 

And no idea what "QQing" is.