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The problem with multiclassing / nerving


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so a lot of nerving seems to be going on...i see a similar problem that is appearing with multi classing now that i see often in mmo's - ESO that i am playing for example where you can freely "mix and match" skills etc...

 

What happens is basically that devs nerv based on the most powerful combination possible - so they look at the strongest combos/synergies and then nerv them so that these op combos are no longer op but just ok...but that usually means unfortunatly that all other combos that included these classes/skills that werent op before the nerving are now sub-par.... this leads to forcing people into cookie cutter / meta builds because everything else is garbage

 

It's the exact same thing that happens in ESO.... and i am afraid this might happen too in POE to a certain extent because it is so difficult to balance such a system - unless you nerve synergies as a whole rather than the skills/classes used to create the synergy.

 

So imo you should rather nerve the "whole puzzle" rather than the "puzzle pieces" to prevent this... its less of an issue because it is a single player game and as such not competitive...but still...

 

or am i seeing this completly wrong?

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IMO they should be focusing their time in buffing up underpower builds as a priority and not nerfing the popular builds contributed by the veterans. Of course broken builds should be adressed where you get ridiculously overpowered *early* game. I don't mind some overpowering if i'm almost completing the game. What's more those super mega optional big bosses require some form of overpoweredness to make the battle easier.

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Not sure what the problem is. Balance adjustments between beta4 and release were to be expected.

It isn't like this will disrupt anyone's game in progress.

 

 

Besides, most of the 'nerfing' I've noticed was warranted and fairly reasonable.

I'm not sure how nerfing the 'whole puzzle' would work. Most of the crazy stuff IS made up of pieces, there isn't an overarching bundle to turn down.

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IMO they should be focusing their time in buffing up underpower builds as a priority and not nerfing the popular builds contributed by the veterans. Of course broken builds should be adressed where you get ridiculously overpowered *early* game. I don't mind some overpowering if i'm almost completing the game. What's more those super mega optional big bosses require some form of overpoweredness to make the battle easier.

That is not how Obsidian does balancing.  They have explained it before back in Eternity 1 beta but what they do is intentionally make abilities a little stronger than they think they should be.  Then they test that, and adjust down, or in some cases realize they were wrong and give the ability a big buff until it is op.  Then they start that slow slight adjustment down step by step again.

 

Their theory is it is easier to balance by adjusting things down, than by taking them up.

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Imo they just nerf some class combo too hard without fixing either single classes. For example Eternal Flame is nerfed to 10% fire lash because they afraid the BW/Assassin combo becoming too strong. But compare to Shared Flame that gives 20% fire lash to all your team member including summons, would there be anybody pick Eternal Flame? They balance the game because people says omg that combo is so OP, but also make the ability unbalanced at the same time.

 

Also based on some comment in general subforum, sneak attack is nerfed to 30% sneak attack. I dunno if this is also because rogue is too good for multiclass, but it juse make single class rogue less appealing both early and late game.

Edited by dunehunter
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No, eternal flame got nerfed because the whole flames of devotion package was just too good, even for a single class paladin.

Eternal flame was a trivial part of BW/Assassin- that math still goes nuts without it.

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What happens is basically that devs nerv based on the most powerful combination possible - so they look at the strongest combos/synergies and then nerv them so that these op combos are no longer op but just ok...but that usually means unfortunatly that all other combos that included these classes/skills that werent op before the nerving are now sub-par.... this leads to forcing people into cookie cutter / meta builds because everything else is garbage

Aren't the other builds still garbage in comparison if you don't somehow nerf the gamebreaking ones?

Out With The Good: The mod for tidying up your Deadfire combat tooltip.
Waukeen's Berth: Make all your basic purchases at Queen's Berth.

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No, eternal flame got nerfed because the whole flames of devotion package was just too good, even for a single class paladin.

Eternal flame was a trivial part of BW/Assassin- that math still goes nuts without it.

 

But they have different method to fix the build without making an ability trash. Like change the mechansim of Lash, or increase ability cost. 

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No, eternal flame got nerfed because the whole flames of devotion package was just too good, even for a single class paladin.

Eternal flame was a trivial part of BW/Assassin- that math still goes nuts without it.

 

but that is the problem - nervring something because of one op combo making other combos to weak in the process

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No, eternal flame got nerfed because the whole flames of devotion package was just too good, even for a single class paladin.

Eternal flame was a trivial part of BW/Assassin- that math still goes nuts without it.

but that is the problem - nervring something because of one op combo making other combos to weak in the process

Paladins are still quite strong both single and multi class. What combo is going to be "to weak" because it lost 10% off the enduring flame lash?

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No, eternal flame got nerfed because the whole flames of devotion package was just too good, even for a single class paladin.

Eternal flame was a trivial part of BW/Assassin- that math still goes nuts without it.

 

But they have different method to fix the build without making an ability trash. Like change the mechansim of Lash, or increase ability cost. 

 

 

couldn't obsidian just address a particular build that is overpowered instead of just nerfing a talent/ability that at the same time make  it overpowered for multiclass and underpowered for single? so if let's say BW/Assassin multi-class just address eternal flame for that multi-class itself? possibly it could be too much work for obsidian but again why introduce multiclass if they couldn't balance it correctly in the first place? going the nerf path in balancing multi-class while disregard the single class ability or other multi-class combinations, isn't really a good approach.

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They certainly can nerf abilities on a per-multiclass basis but it won't be pretty. Anyone looking to create an interesting synergy might get annoyed with the sudden restrictions, assuming the game itself communicates them to begin with. It'll feel inelegant.

 

It's gonna be hell to balance all these multiclasses to begin with and I'm pretty sure they said they're just gonna deal with heavy outliers. Still, I think the key to handling these problems could be power level scaling. Because single classes have a higher power level than multis, you could aim to tune abilities so that the imba synergies are dampened by the lower power level behind them. I think you'd need to work with exponential scaling for that though, which might create an even greater balancing mess.

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I don't like that every nerf they do because of op multiclass combos most severely affects single classes. They fix one thing while nerfing the other to the ground. And as far as we have seen in streams 8-9 level abilities that are locked behind single classes are far from being good enough to warrant being a single class. And what's more, they will only be unlocked in the later half of the game when you're like level ~15 or something, so for bigger half of the game you're not gonna run with anything extra up your sleeve  :rolleyes: .

 

I dunno how or whether devs will balance this problem at all, it's a serious one. Perhaps some abilities at every level should be locked out if you multiclass, not just level 8-9? Or are made even more weaker than just being of lower power level?  :shrugz:

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No, eternal flame got nerfed because the whole flames of devotion package was just too good, even for a single class paladin.

Eternal flame was a trivial part of BW/Assassin- that math still goes nuts without it.

 

But they have different method to fix the build without making an ability trash. Like change the mechansim of Lash, or increase ability cost. 

 

:blink: Increased ability cost would make it horrid- far more so than losing a few percentage points of additional damage. 

 

No idea what you have in mind for 'change the mechanism of lash,' but I very much doubt it would quick or functional to do.

Edited by Voss
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I don't like that every nerf they do because of op multiclass combos most severely affects single classes. They fix one thing while nerfing the other to the ground. And as far as we have seen in streams 8-9 level abilities that are locked behind single classes are far from being good enough to warrant being a single class. And what's more, they will only be unlocked in the later half of the game when you're like level ~15 or something, so for bigger half of the game you're not gonna run with anything extra up your sleeve :rolleyes: .

 

I dunno how or whether devs will balance this problem at all, it's a serious one. Perhaps some abilities at every level should be locked out if you multiclass, not just level 8-9? Or are made even more weaker than just being of lower power level? :shrugz:

Some classes have high level abilities that are for sure worth single classing to get. Monk is a good example of this.

 

Can't remember names, but a passive that gives 100 ACC and 100 Pen for an Empowered ability combined with the ability that deals 60-80 crush and does +500% crit damage if it crits is a worth while set of abilities. That ACC buff will make a crit very likely on all but maybe PotD. Combined with Flagellants Path or Long fists could put you in any position on the battlefield to do an equivalent of Finger of Death on any target in an encounter. This, and the Chanter's high level abilities, mean my first 2 plays will be single class plays.

 

Chanters have an interesting dynamic Invocation at 7 that gives them an Energized inspiration for 30 seconds. If you MC that should be enough since you can pop that buff and dump your other class's abilities in short order. I'm imagining an ascendant/Chanter where you pop it right before you top out focus. Cast energize buff, get your last hit for ascendant, and go ham with damage spells from cipher. As a single class you can upgrade and it gives you 3 phrases immediately for use. Which means you could cast one of the low level inspirations immediately after. I dont know how this will work with Skalds with lower Offensive phrase requirements, and might work best with troubadour with Brisk Recitation. However, you could empower that first invocation after you cast the energize buff.

 

Chanters, Druids, Fighters, Monks, and Barbs all look great at high level. Very worth single classing them. Cipher, Wizard, and Priests look good enough. Paladin looks good, but some things might be IMBA for good or bad... So it depends on implementation. Rogue might be ok depending on Guile costs, but I'm unsure. Rangers need something IMHO.

 

However, Rangers and Rogues have very empty talents at high Level, and I think that makes them most susceptible to being MC only for most. There just isn't enough weight at the top of their trees to keep them from being MCed most playthroughs. We will see, though. My play style would probably never single class those two classes anyway. They would always fill out a MC build for flavor.

 

I think some classes are for sure better than others in this regards, and IMHO that is an issue.

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No, eternal flame got nerfed because the whole flames of devotion package was just too good, even for a single class paladin.

Eternal flame was a trivial part of BW/Assassin- that math still goes nuts without it.

But they have different method to fix the build without making an ability trash. Like change the mechansim of Lash, or increase ability cost.

:blink: Increased ability cost would make it horrid- far more so than losing a few percentage points of additional damage.

 

No idea what you have in mind for 'change the mechanism of lash,' but I very much doubt it would quick or functional to do.

Now lash works for all damage bonus, so if your weapon damage is 20, you have 200% damage bonus, 100% lash bonus, the final damage would be 20 * 3 * 2 = 120. Lets say if lash only applies to base weapon damage, it will be the same 20 * (1+2+1) = 80, so less spike damage.

 

Or they can cut a bit of BW bonus instead of nerfing the whole paladin class.

Edited by dunehunter
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Some classes have high level abilities that are for sure worth single classing to get. Monk is a good example of this.

Since you mentioned that, another solution came to mind. Let's say the game, or at least its higher difficulties, had a large portion tuned for max level. At this point, the crazy synergies would be competing with the level 8-9 abilities of single classes. So if a combo is way too strong, you can simply nerf its components, and if that makes the involved single classes too weak, you can compensate them by improving their level 8-9 abilities.

 

If abilities also had some soft exponential growth so that... somehow, the level 5 abilities are a little better than the level 4 ones and so on, then at any level where a multiclass can boast a crazy good synergy, a single class can at least say they have some individually stronger abilities.

 

Of course there's a ton of reasons this won't happen, the difficulty of balancing exponential scaling being one of them, the other being that I really doubt much of Deadfire will be tuned for max level. Max level is probably again just something that happens if you go for every quest you can find. And there's no criticism implied or intended here. It was just fun to brainstorm around the problem.

 

This is where we're headed ^^

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I don't like that every nerf they do because of op multiclass combos most severely affects single classes. They fix one thing while nerfing the other to the ground. And as far as we have seen in streams 8-9 level abilities that are locked behind single classes are far from being good enough to warrant being a single class. And what's more, they will only be unlocked in the later half of the game when you're like level ~15 or something, so for bigger half of the game you're not gonna run with anything extra up your sleeve  :rolleyes: .

 

I dunno how or whether devs will balance this problem at all, it's a serious one. Perhaps some abilities at every level should be locked out if you multiclass, not just level 8-9? Or are made even more weaker than just being of lower power level?  :shrugz:

A single class character unlocks PL7 six (!) levels earlier, PL6 five levels earlier, PL5 four levels earlier and PL4 three levels earlier than a multiclass character. Those are some big differences. Throughout your entire playthrough, single class characters will be casting much higher level abilities.

Edited by z_liquid
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I don't like that every nerf they do because of op multiclass combos most severely affects single classes. They fix one thing while nerfing the other to the ground. And as far as we have seen in streams 8-9 level abilities that are locked behind single classes are far from being good enough to warrant being a single class. And what's more, they will only be unlocked in the later half of the game when you're like level ~15 or something, so for bigger half of the game you're not gonna run with anything extra up your sleeve  :rolleyes: .

 

I dunno how or whether devs will balance this problem at all, it's a serious one. Perhaps some abilities at every level should be locked out if you multiclass, not just level 8-9? Or are made even more weaker than just being of lower power level?  :shrugz:

A single class character unlocks PL7 six (!) levels earlier, PL6 five levels earlier, PL5 four levels earlier and PL4 three levels earlier than a multiclass character. Those are some big differences. Throughout your entire playthrough, single class characters will be casting much higher level abilities.

 

You're not gonna unlock 8-9 level abilities at character level 8-9. Abilities levels don't unlock at every level up even for single class, only every other level. In the beta at level 9 single class you unlock only 5th level abilities. So 8th level abilities you'll get only at level 15 and 9th at 17. So that's still gonna be a large portion of the game until you get those.

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I believe z_liquid's point wasn't about 8-9 abilities but how much earlier single classes unlock various tiers compared to multiclasses. You say it's a really large portion of the game before single classes get level 9 abilities? It's exactly the same portion until multiclasses get level 7 ^^

 

new_multiclassing_table.jpg

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Out With The Good: The mod for tidying up your Deadfire combat tooltip.
Waukeen's Berth: Make all your basic purchases at Queen's Berth.

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I believe z_liquid's point wasn't about 8-9 abilities but how much earlier single classes unlock various tiers compared to multiclasses. You say it's a really large portion of the game before single classes get level 9 abilities? It's exactly the same portion until multiclasses get level 7 ^^

 

I brought up 8-9th level abilities because those are supposed to be the incentive to single class, as multiclasses won't get them. But since not all of those high level abilities are good, or are too sparse for some classes, and you get them pretty late in the game that incentive is kinda lost, I think. It would've been better I think to start giving single class only abilities way earlier, from the beginning even. But right now, some classes get most of the good stuff right from the beginning but at the end get some trash, as if devs couldn't come up with anything. Worst examples of this are rogues and rangers.

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