Sacred Immolation or Dragon trashes, which does more damage when picked by MC?

[dunehunter]

So I wonder which does more damage? I read a few thread here that all says Dragon trashes > Sacred Immolation. But SI can benefit from high accuracy and critical bonus isn’t it? So I made a MC Darcoozi paladin which buffs himself with liberation extotation and pick all the +critical damage talent and all slayer talent. The damage is pretty impressive, so any input from players played both?

[Boeroer]

It also works with Scion of Flame by the way.

 

Still SI's AoE is smaller and the duration is limited while Dragon Thrashed is endless.

 

Dragon Thrashed also profits from crits like any other DoT, but not from crit dmg talents like Merciless Hand. It also profits from INT twofold: not only the area gets increased but also the damage.

It also depends on your stage of Brisk Recitation.

 

Sacred Immolation works very well with Combusting Wounds, Dragon Thrashed doesn't.

 

Dragon Thrashed has two damage types (slash & burn) while SI only has one (burn).

 

Dragon Thrashed gets +12 ACC from single weapon usage.

 

Dragon Thrashed works while withdrawn (never tested with SI). While that doesn't contribute to damage it is very handy.

 

So it depends on the number and type of enemies and how many you can reach (not all will attack you in melee) and how long the encounter takes.

 

I'd say in a short(ish) encounter with rel. few enemies SI is better - while Dragon Thrashed is unmatched when it comes to longer encounters with numerous foes (bounties, dragon fights, Crägholt Bluffs, Abbey of the Fallen Moon, Lagufaeth...).

Edited April 22, 2018 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

Pretty sure Kaylon tested the damage and the chant does more as soon as it is double stacked.

My last chanter was quadra stacking even with under 25 Int (level 16 so full brisk Recitation) if the enemies reflex wasn't on Alpine Dragon levels. (PotD)

Single applied chant does less than SI. so at the start of a fight SI will do more as Boeroer said.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Raven Darkholme

[Boeroer]

Yeah - but with Merciless Hand, Dungeon Delver and Azalin's Helmet or Rabbit Fur Gloves the SI gets a dmg bonus of +50% on crit. Combined with hater talent and Scion you would have +45 on hit and +95% on crit which is hefty - especially good when you can one- or two-shot weaker enemies. They die faster which is an advantage over the slower DoT. I also think the dps is higher but didn't calculate. Also the Bartender's Ring works with SI which would give you +20% against Spirits and Vessels. Doesn't work with DoTs unfortunately.

 

But yes - I guess nothing besides Heart of Fury or some spells come close to properly skilled, itemized and stacked Dragon Thrashed in PoE. 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

Ah so I ignore the fact that Dragon Thrashed can stack itself even with one chanter. That is pretty strong because one chant provides 10+10 = 20 DoT, so two would make it 40 DoT. Also this doesn't check hit/miss make it good at any high level mobs.

 

How many layer of Dragon Thrashed u can stack with Brisk Recitation on btw? Also the damage is nerfed to 4+4 in Deadfire if I remember the number correctly. Does it stack itself in DF?

[Boeroer]

Yes, it does. But linger times are much shorter in Deadfire. Only a Troubadour can stack more than 2 phrases in Deadfire with a lot of INT.

 

In PoE it's not so hard to stack 3 instances of DT. 4 is also possible but tricky - and you need max level 16 in order to gain the 50% Brisk Recitation bonus.

 

The Damage is nerfed in Deadfire, yes. However with a Helwalker who also uses Duality (INT) for +10 MIG/+10 INT it's still good.

[dunehunter]

Yes, it does. But linger times are much shorter in Deadfire. Only a Troubadour can stack more than 2 phrases in Deadfire with a lot of INT.

 

In PoE it's not so hard to stack 3 instances of DT. 4 is also possible but tricky - and you need max level 16 in order to gain the 50% Brisk Recitation bonus.

 

The Damage is nerfed in Deadfire, yes. However with a Helwalker who also uses Duality (INT) for +10 MIG/+10 INT it's still good.

 

I remember in recently beta Troubadour Brisk Recitation will cancel lingering completely. I maybe wrong because cannot access to PC now.

[Boeroer]

Yes - but a Troubadour has +50% linger time compared to other chanters when he's not using Brisk Recitation.

[Raven Darkholme]

Stacking 4 on regular mobs is quite easy and you need less than 25 Int for it as I said above (as long as the chanter is max level).

You can easily get 30 int with buffs and stacking 3 on tougher mobs should be pretty much guaranteed. (except those 160 ref rogues in Brynlod's bounty).

 

In Deadfire the damage nerf alone wouldn't be the worst but the way Brisk Retaliation works now seems to make the nerf quite noticeable, which is good, since there is no reason for the most passive ability in the game having the highest dps by far.

As Boeroer said the 50% linger bonus outside BR will still make it viable, jsut not the champion of lazy dps anymore.

[Elric Galad]

I remember that once I made some comparison calculation and my conclusion was that Dragon Trashed was about twice the damages of sacred immolation. Its AoE is greater, it last indefinately and does not cause self damages. Sacred Immolation also heals, which is great and a Paladin has many other trick meanwhile a Dragon Trasher Chanter does pretty much nothing else (I like starting battle with the fire lash chant though, before my chanter moves into the frail)

[dunehunter]

I remember that once I made some comparison calculation and my conclusion was that Dragon Trashed was about twice the damages of sacred immolation. Its AoE is greater, it last indefinately and does not cause self damages. Sacred Immolation also heals, which is great and a Paladin has many other trick meanwhile a Dragon Trasher Chanter does pretty much nothing else (I like starting battle with the fire lash chant though, before my chanter moves into the frail)

 

Well if the damage is twice you don't need any tricks

[Boeroer]

It was ok to nerf DT for Deadfire. It was just too strong. But maybe it's a little too weak now. You can make it work with a lot of min-maxing - but in its basic form it's just not very useful now - unless you plan a solo run. Mith Fyr for example is unchanged and much better now in a party.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

Wait, wait, wait!!! Boeroer, how so? "It also works with Scion of Flame by the way" - are you sure? As i remember, Haters & Elements Talents don't work with DOT's.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

I meant Sacred Immolation, not Dragon Thrashed. SI is not a DoT but a pulsing effect that does a seperate hit roll every time a pulse occurs. It works with hater talents, Merciless Hand et al. and also Scion of Flame. Draong Thrashed works with none of them.

[Kaylon]

The damage of SI(25base) + Combusting Wounds(10base) is roughly equivalent to 2xDT(2x20base). SI+CW suffers however vs enemies with high burn DR. Also a chanter with 30INT is able to stack 3xDT with maxed Brisk Recitation - which is close to the dps of a DW barb and over a huge area...