Spells don't do any damage

[MadDemiurg]

How should I know what you know? I'm just interpreting what you wrote, and that may go wrong sometimes. Since you said summoned weapons don't scale I assumed you could be mistaken with the nature of dmg mods, too.

 

Anyway: the title "Spells don't do any damage" is highly exaggerated. I could agree with "don't do enough damage". Some could indeed be better.

 

Conjured weapon scaling is new stuff, I tested it and you're right, it's not easy to notice as it jumps up in quality at certain thresholds rather than scaling gradually. 

 

I agree that the title is a bit exaggerated and sort of a clickbait :D. 

 

But DD casters are bottom tier now imo, if we exclude skald and ascended.

[Boeroer]

What do you mean? They scaled from beta 1 on. Or wait - I guess you mean that the scaling is new in Deadfire (compared to PoE): then you're absolutely right.

 

Yes, pure nukers are not top notch. At least they felt underwhelming up to beta3 because of slow casting times. No it's a bit faster, but still: I miss my fast Fireballs and Iconic Projections...

[JerekKruger]

Conjured weapon scaling is new stuff, I tested it and you're right, it's not easy to notice as it jumps up in quality at certain thresholds rather than scaling gradually. 

 

Conjured weapon scaling has been in since beta 1, I know because I tested it pretty much straight away and posted a bug report about the fact it didn't seem to be scaling properly with power level (which is where I was told it was intended to scale with character level).

 

EDIT: oh, if you meant it's new to Deadfire (as Boeroer suggested) then my bad 

Edited April 3, 2018 by JerekKruger

[MadDemiurg]

Yeah I mean new to Deadfire, I haven't played betas enough to distinguish between versions.

[Gromnir]

Apparently so, yet in my personal experience casters tend to seriously out-DPS everyone else. Not to mention some super handy debuff/interupt spells. 

 

It might be me not really building properly melee DPSers, I dunno.

the single class caster complaints has, from day 1 o' the beta, been all bass ackwards.  use the beta mercenary party and add a single class caster.  play on vet difficulty.  chances are the pc caster and merc wizard is gonna be doing admirable dps and contributing much to the party in terms o' essential debuffs/buffs/whatever.  the single class pc caster as part o' the beta merc party, played by somebody with at least a smidge o' poe experience, will likely find vet difficulty to be challenging w/o being overwhelming... at least such is the likely scenario now that penetration has been nerfed a bit.

 

for some peculiar reason, folks measure deadfire single class casters 'gainst a benchmark o' helfire sages and assassin/_______ or berserker/_________ mutli-class weapon havers and come to the curious conclusion o' the need for a caster power-up.  "combat is over so quick i can't get more than two spells cast" and similar such silliness is used as evidence o' broken casters.

 

...

 

is mind boggling.  yes, there is more than a handful o' multi-class weapon focused builds which is, even in the most recent beta release, doing comical high damage.  got folks routine observing how their combat encounters is lasting less than 30 seconds but somehow they see root problem with casters? 

 

the casters typical do not benefit from multi-classing.  the passive weapon damage enhancers do little for dedicated casters and multi-class casters.  combine a wizard and priest also is tending to be counterproductive as  you is sacrificing higher level abilities simple to access a secondary spell catalog.  casters, with few exceptions, benefit little from multi-class, which is kinda what most people expected, no? 

 

nevertheless, when caster potency is decried, is not measured 'gainst the actual deadfire gameplay challenges.  casters is also not declared weak when single class rogues or fighters is occupying the other side o' the scale. nope, casters is weak compared to multi-class... whatevers.  given current state o' deadfire gameplay, to come to the conclusion casters need additional developer buffs is... wacky. heck, such a solution not only ignores current challenge level o' the game for an entire single-class party, but it magnifies the already existing op status o' any weapon haver multiclass which combines with a caster.  

 

am realizing Gromnir is howling at the wind, but am genuine baffled by the majority o' caster complaints since the release o' the first deadfire beta.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 3, 2018 by Gromnir

[CottonWolf]

The spell balance is honestly terrible but if you cherry pick the good ones (i.e. the ones with duration more than 3 seconds) ascendant or chanter are the best CC classes. Ascendant has 20 sec charm/dominate/aoe charm + dominate which is basically the strongest affliction. All the while paralyze is nerfed to 6 sec because "omg mental binding OP".

 

Wizard CC is better on average but has nothing to match 20 sec dominate and severely limited in resources. It's still decent, although confuse is nerfed into non entity.

 

I'm not sure. It feels like a pure beguiler probably puts out more consistent CC than an ascendant, at the cost of focusing purely on that at the expense of damage dealing. Though the ascended window is very long.

 

E: Though thinking of it, how much of that is that I deliberately build beguilers to be better at CC, I don't know.

Edited April 3, 2018 by CottonWolf

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

The spell balance is honestly terrible but if you cherry pick the good ones (i.e. the ones with duration more than 3 seconds) ascendant or chanter are the best CC classes. Ascendant has 20 sec charm/dominate/aoe charm + dominate which is basically the strongest affliction. All the while paralyze is nerfed to 6 sec because "omg mental binding OP".

 

Wizard CC is better on average but has nothing to match 20 sec dominate and severely limited in resources. It's still decent, although confuse is nerfed into non entity.

 

I'm not sure. It feels like a pure beguiler probably puts out more consistent CC than an ascendant, at the cost of focusing purely on that at the expense of damage dealing. Though the ascended window is very long.

 

E: Though thinking of it, how much of that is that I deliberately build beguilers to be better at CC, I don't know.

 

 

 

Well, Beguilers are going to be built more for CC just by virtue of their bonuses.

 

The main thing the Ascendant gives up is the opening chunk of the combat, which is the most tactically valuable. The Beguiler can *open* the fight with an Eyestrike, etc., whereas the Ascendant generally doesn't want to.

 

The other thing that makes Beguilers effective CC is that they don't necessarily have to pump and dump -- if they have their stuff together they can cast cast cast and regain focus from casting, without having to take weapon breaks.

[MadDemiurg]

@Gromnir

 

If you read the first post it's specifically comparing to multiclass builds, but that's the world we live in right now. Maybe certain multiclasses need to be nerfed instead. Although certain builds can put out very respectable dps even single class.

 

@rest

 

Yeah, beguiler is likely a great CC class too but I haven't used it much to compare.

[Gromnir]

@Gromnir

 

If you read the first post it's specifically comparing to multiclass builds,

 

 

we did read, and the dubious comparison is exact why we responded.  curious conclusions reached by the misleading comparison were why we responded.  casters ain't weak compared to other single classes (with the notable exception o' paladins and perhaps monks) and they ain't insufficient insofar as fulfilling their role within a deadfire party-- take a caster will not gimp your party.  furthermore, due to the nature o' multiclassing itself, general improvements to casters will necessarily improve those multiclasses which combine with casters, thus perpetuating the very problem you seem to identify. 

 

etc.

 

am repeating self.

 

a few multiclass combos would indeed benefit from surgical nerfing. however, such an observation does not necessarily result in one concluding casters is suffering any kinda generalized gameplay paucity.  

 

*shrug*

 

this scarecrow has had the stuffing beat out o' it mercilessly by backers since the beta were first released.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MadDemiurg]

If you want an example of a single class dpser better than a spell damage oriented wizard or druid you should not look much further than a straightforward devoted fighter (I've actually read comments about fighters being UP here which is quite amusing). It can currently stack 100% graze to hit and 50% hit to crit conversion which is kinda crazy and with a proper dps setup such as dw spears/sabers or a hunting bow with its modal can put out pretty ridiculous damage numbers. Of course it can get even better with some multiclassing, but just a vanilla one is sufficient. If you're running some rp build with like 5 sec recovery and not min/maxed you won't see the good numbers tho.

 

Most caster multiclasses are actually pretty weak and the ones that are not do not center around spell damage, so buffing spell damage builds won't have any noticeable impact there. Again, quoting my original post " I'm not sure they are actually UP since they can do well enough on PotD so maybe it's weapons and weapon damage passives that need nerfing". Tbh I do prefer the nerf route as the game is easy enough as is, but "surgical nerfing of a few multiclasses" is not gonna cut it, the list of OP damage builds is really really long, I'll get tired if I start listing all combos.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Gromnir]

a single class devoted fighter? we can show you ridiculous damage totals from a beta playthru using a nature godlike evoker wizard even w/o abusing hardtack.  we can play the one-ups game all day long.  

 

"Most caster multiclasses are actually pretty weak"

 

*chuckle*

 

do a quicky search for feedback regarding op warlocks, sages, ascetics, contemplatives and other combos.  such builds has become even more potent with the return o' might.  a few o' the helwalker builds we mentioned at beta release is having found new life.  a ranged helwalker sage or contemplative dual wielding scepters is almost comical strong... no pun. 

 

deadfire might not be the game you believe it to be.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MadDemiurg]

I've run a nature godlike evoker wizard, it's a one hit wonder and doesn't match an optimized melee build in terms of total damage done in my experience.

 

People believe many things to be OP... even when they're not.

 

I've tested quite a lot of builds. E.g. wIzard multiclasses that work usually center around conjured weapons and they still aren't top tier this beta because of really low pen of blights. Maybe with higher lvl cap and lance accessible to multiclass they will be stronger. These builds won't really benefit from offensive spell buffs much if at all. No multiclass actually helps wizard doing damage with spells.

 

Anyways, as I've said I would prefer to nerf all OP stuff instead.

 

But you're welcome to show your OP spell damage builds.

 

Of course, this discussion is pretty subjective atm, I can say "X OP" and you would respond with "Y OP". I'm not really sure what the benchmark should be cause "X did the most damage in my party" is not it.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Gromnir]

 

People believe many things to be OP... even when they're not.

 

 

irony. 

 

honest, do some homework and search board for contemplative, sage, ascetic, warlock and similar combos.  am thinking you is gonna be surprised by how effective such is in deadfire.  your personal experience may be insufficient at this point to be giving you a full picture if you genuine is seeing multiclass caster builds as "pretty weak." 

 

and yes, nature godlike specialist casters is one-hit wonders in the sense they is powerful damage dealers.  is a pretty significant "hit."

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MaxQuest]

Spells don't do any damage

That's quite a hyperbole)

 

Spell damage, due to the new per encounter system, was overall dropped. The number of spells you can use per fight was also decreased, but you don't have to rest to get them back now.

 

As a result, I find spell damage builds severely underwhelming compared to weapon damage builds.

I tend to separate damaging spells in 4 groups:

1. alpha-strike damage (stuff that likes to get empowered and is used to eliminate enemies asap, like missiles and fireballs)

2. periodic damage (have decent total damage values but can't be used to "evaporate" enemies; also usually do not benefit from INT)

3. total damage-per-casttime kings (spells that can deal tremendous amounts of total damage, but do it slowly, over time, like Shining Beacon, Touch of Rot, Disintegration)

4. utility damage (usually has low values but gets something useful like interrupt attached in return)

 

If I want to deal "spell damage" I use categories 2 and 3.

If I want to quickly eliminate weaker enemies at the start of combat, and fight the remaining sturdy ones, I will use spells from 1st category.

 

Wizards in my opinion were always great at 1,2, and 4. And unlike priests sucked at 3. Which in my opinion is ok, but maybe that's why you have a feeling that they deal "no damage"?

 

Here's a question I haven't seen discussed much -- Which are the best Wizard spells to choose as your "core" powers on level up?

 

So far in the beta I've generally picked a few core utility powers that are always useful -- eldritch aim, thrust of tattered veils, pull of eora. What have other folks gone with?

Unless my party is built around alpha-strike, I spec my wizards for crowd-control, and leave "total spell damage" department for priests, druids and in case of poe1 also: ciphers and dragon-trashed chanters.

 

In beta4 my favorite wizard spell so far is Repulsive Visage. Even through terrifying is only partially working at the moment (as it doesn't prevent enemies from using all hostile spells like some aoes), it still prevents enemies from auto-attacking you and afaik from using single-targeted offensive stuff. The next spell I like is Miasma of Dull-Mindedness due it's decent malus to will; which helps with landing charms, beacons and also helps that visage.

 

Other than that there is Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights, which was UP in PoE1, but decent in Deadfire, since it guarantees that your armor won't be overpenetrated, if penetrated at all. And the rest is survivability ones like: Arcane Veil and Spirit Shield, because they have good effect/casttime ratio.

 

Special note about Confusion and Bewildering Spectacle: in PoE1 I sometimes used those as oh-shi- emergency buttons, since it could quickly transform a 10x6 into 6x10 fight. And was really disappointed with them in deadfire. But I can see a situational incentive to pick them after beta4 came in. For example Confusion could be good vs Scirocco as in: let them kill and blind themselves.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MaxQuest

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

People believe many things to be OP... even when they're not.

 

 

irony. 

 

honest, do some homework and search board for contemplative, sage, ascetic, warlock and similar combos.  am thinking you is gonna be surprised by how effective such is in deadfire.  your personal experience may be insufficient at this point to be giving you a full picture if you genuine is seeing multiclass caster builds as "pretty weak." 

 

and yes, nature godlike specialist casters is one-hit wonders in the sense they is powerful damage dealers.  is a pretty significant "hit."

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I tried some of the builds I found here and in other sources when I started on deadfire, a lot of them are actualy unimpressive or just straight up bad. Others are horribly outdated for beta 4 and don't work anymore. It's kind of hard to find good builds in the pile of of suboprimal ones. I read through the whole "best beta" builds thread. If you have something to suggest in particular, feel free to, instead of cryptically suggesting some OP builds that exist somewhere, otherwise my experience is as good as yours, thanks.

 

100+ fireball 1/encounter is a gimmick when I can cleave with a pure fighter for 60+ and with a multiclass one for 100+.

 

 

Spells don't do any damage

That's quite a hyperbole)

 

Spell damage, due to the new per encounter system, was overall dropped. The number of spells you can use per fight was also decreased, but you don't have to rest to get them back now.

 

As a result, I find spell damage builds severely underwhelming compared to weapon damage builds.

I tend to separate damaging spells in 4 groups:

1. alpha-strike damage (stuff that likes to get empowered and is used to eliminate enemies asap, like missiles and fireballs)

2. periodic damage (have decent total damage values but can't be used to "evaporate" enemies; also usually do not benefit from INT)

3. total damage-per-casttime kings (spells that can deal tremendous amounts of total damage, but do it slowly, over time, like Shining Beacon, Touch of Rot, Disintegration)

4. utility damage (usually has low values but gets something useful like interrupt attached in return)

 

If I want to deal "spell damage" I use categories 2 and 3.

If I want to quickly eliminate weaker enemies at the start of combat, and fight the remaining sturdy ones, I will use spells from 1st category.

 

Wizards in my opinion were always great at 1,2, and 4. And unlike priests sucked at 3. Which in my opinion is ok, but maybe that's why you have a feeling that they deal "no damage"?

 

Here's a question I haven't seen discussed much -- Which are the best Wizard spells to choose as your "core" powers on level up?

 

So far in the beta I've generally picked a few core utility powers that are always useful -- eldritch aim, thrust of tattered veils, pull of eora. What have other folks gone with?

Unless my party is built around alpha-strike, I spec my wizards for crowd-control, and leave "total spell damage" department for priests, druids and in case of poe1 also: ciphers and dragon-trashed chanters.

 

In beta4 my favorite wizard spell so far is Repulsive Visage. Even through terrifying is only partially working at the moment (as it doesn't prevent enemies from using all hostile spells like some aoes), it still prevents enemies from auto-attacking you and afaik from using single-targeted offensive stuff. The next spell I like is Miasma of Dull-Mindedness due it's decent malus to will; which helps with landing charms, beacons and also helps that visage.

 

Other than that there is Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights, which was UP in PoE1, but decent in Deadfire, since it guarantees that your armor won't be overpenetrated, if penetrated at all. And the rest is survivability ones like: Arcane Veil and Spirit Shield, because they have good effect/casttime ratio.

 

Special note about Confusion and Bewildering Spectacle: in PoE1 I sometimes used those as oh-shi- emergency buttons, since it could quickly transform a 10x6 into 6x10 fight. And was really disappointed with them in deadfire. But I can see a situational incentive to pick them after beta4 came in. For example Confusion could be good vs Scirocco as in: let them kill and blind themselves.

 

 

I agree that it's a hyberbole, it was intended as one. But the fact is, they are still very suboptimal.

 

I'm not sure why you're arguing about CC spells being good in the 2nd part of your post, I never suggested they aren't.

 

Most damage spells of all 4 categories you listed are nerfed pretty heavily tho e.g. shining beacon is only a fraction of what it was before.

 

And weapons are capable of some serious alpha too, I can probably do 2 full attacks in the time it takes to cast a fireball for 200+ total damage + cleave.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Frog Man]

If you want an example of a single class dpser better than a spell damage oriented wizard or druid you should not look much further than a straightforward devoted fighter (I've actually read comments about fighters being UP here which is quite amusing). It can currently stack 100% graze to hit and 50% hit to crit conversion which is kinda crazy and with a proper dps setup such as dw spears/sabers or a hunting bow with its modal can put out pretty ridiculous damage numbers. Of course it can get even better with some multiclassing, but just a vanilla one is sufficient.

Arguments aside, tell me about this devoted hunting bow guy! So you just pick hunting bow as the devoted weapon and use modal and he owns? How do you build him?

[MadDemiurg]

 

If you want an example of a single class dpser better than a spell damage oriented wizard or druid you should not look much further than a straightforward devoted fighter (I've actually read comments about fighters being UP here which is quite amusing). It can currently stack 100% graze to hit and 50% hit to crit conversion which is kinda crazy and with a proper dps setup such as dw spears/sabers or a hunting bow with its modal can put out pretty ridiculous damage numbers. Of course it can get even better with some multiclassing, but just a vanilla one is sufficient.

Arguments aside, tell me about this devoted hunting bow guy! So you just pick hunting bow as the devoted weapon and use modal and he owns? How do you build him?

 

 

Quite simple.

 

Max Dex/Might/Per. Dump Int. Take hunting bow and use its -50% recovery modal. it puts you at -15 acc but hunting bow is +5 acc base so really it's -10. The other 10 you compensate with conqueror stance. Spend all your discipline on disciplined barrage, don't bother with any other actives. Take the +50% hit to crit upgrade. Also take confident aim. Take 2h style and other passives that look decent enough.

 

Congrats, you have ~3s attack interval in plate armor with smth like 40-50 damage per hit at range and super consistent hits with frequent crits.

 

Melee dw version is overall a lot stronger tho because it can cleave for like 60+ damage with a full attack.

 

Both would benefit from dual classing paladin a lot for +resists and FoD tho. Especially melee dw because FoD is full attack. Melee dw Crusader can crit for like 160 with FoD and you see it quite often. You can use 2 in the time it takes to cast a spell, lol. It's still not as good single target damage wise as dw Inquisitor, but it has cleave.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[dunehunter]

I missed a lot with Soul Annihilation, I'm playing on PoTD...

[MadDemiurg]

I missed a lot with Soul Annihilation, I'm playing on PoTD...

Did you max perception? Anyways, **** happens and everyone can miss. It's not like Soul Anihilation has lower accuracy than normal attacks. But you hit "most" of the time atm.

 

I mostly mess around solo PotD atm, party is easy mode .

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Boeroer]

As a sidenode:

 

you can't stack graze-to-hit or hit-to-crit conversion like so: 50% from Tactical Barrage and 50% from Killers Froze Stiff = 100%.

 

Actually you can never reach 100%. Conversions are calculated like so:

 

0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25 chance NOT to convert. So your chance is 75%, not 100%. THe more conversions you add the lower the impact of each additional conversion. If you could stack 50% + 50% + 20% (like fighter/rogue attacking a paralyzed target) your chance would be 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.8 = 0.2 chance to NOT convert or 80% chance of conversion.

 

And so on... YOu can test this while attacking a paralyzed target (50% hit to crit) while being inspired by Intuitive (same). You will not convert all your hits to crits but more like 3/4th of hits.

 

Same as with proc chances from weapons with mutliple hits (see Stormcaller with ranger, Silver Flash with Divine Mark and whatnot).

 

Edit: shouldn't Soul Annihilation have an (1 ACC * char level) advantage over autoattacks?

Edited April 4, 2018 by Boeroer

[Gromnir]

100+ fireballs have a rather large aoe which you is clear glossing over and such is supplemented by + 100 rolling flames and interrupt fodder such as tattered veils. just ran foothills map with a 6th level nature godlike evoker as part o' a beta merc party and he did +600 damage. 1 small map and we weren't giving him cheap kills and holding the rogue back or somesuch.

 

we already mentioned specific builds which you casual ignore it seems.  take the same nature godlike mentioned multiple times and make it a sage combining helwalker monk and whatever-you-want wizard with a dual wield scepter config.  will hit 10 wounds quick, so even at 15 for starting might ,you will likely be at ~30 might for most of the battle. quickened scepters, thanks to monk flurry bolstered by dance o' death, is gonna be doing consistent high damage with overpower penetration and heightened accuracy even before adding lightning lash at level 7. might is multiplicative, so the ~30 might nature godlike sage's fireballs is gonna be hitting extreme hard, with comical screen wiping damage when activating empowers.

 

priests o' wael combined helwaker monk?  *chuckle* the priestly spiritual weapons is having a rather large lash so a rod blast combined with monk flurry is devastating even before one considers how potent is the heals for such a build.  don't like monk for some reason, then add paladin for fod + rod blast.  

 

warlocks can nullify the berserker penalty with wizard's infuse with vital essence. this alone makes 'em a powerful build whether is using parasitic staff or spirit lance or whatever. 

 

etc.

 

serious diminishing return.  if you ain't yet convinced, you never will be. regardless, our initial point stands that you got the issue all bas$ ackwards and inverted.  you haven't identified a problem with casters and comparing 'em to multiclass exploitive builds is nothing save self-indulgent and counterproductive scarecrow beating.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MadDemiurg]

As a sidenode:

 

you can't stack graze-to-hit or hit-to-crit conversion like so: 50% from Tactical Barrage and 50% from Killers Froze Stiff = 100%.

 

Actually you can never reach 100%. Conversions are calculated like so:

 

0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25 chance NOT to convert. So your chance is 75%, not 100%. THe more conversions you add the lower the impact of each additional conversion. If you could stack 50% + 50% + 20% (like fighter/rogue attacking a paralyzed target) your chance would be 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.8 = 0.2 chance to NOT convert or 80% chance of conversion.

 

And so on...

 

Same as with proc chances from weapons with mutliple hits (see Stormcaller with ranger, Silver Flash with Divine Mark and whatnot).

 

Edit: shouldn't Soul Annihilation have an (1 ACC * char level) advantage over autoattacks?

 

Good to know, still 75% is a ton.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[dunehunter]

 

Edit: shouldn't Soul Annihilation have an (1 ACC * char level) advantage over autoattacks?

 

No, abilities no longer get the 1 ACC per level bonus now.

[dunehunter]

 

I missed a lot with Soul Annihilation, I'm playing on PoTD...

Did you max perception? Anyways, **** happens and everyone can miss. It's not like Soul Anihilation has lower accuracy than normal attacks. But you hit "most" of the time atm.

 

I mostly mess around solo PotD atm, party is easy mode .

 

 

Yep, I tried a pale elf paladin/soul blade with 20 Perception, dw doesn't really work well on PoTD because I just miss so much with my attacks, and my soul annihilation miss a lot. I might try a ranger/soulblade instead, or use single weapon style instead of dw.

[Boeroer]

I guess I got c

 

 

 

Edit: shouldn't Soul Annihilation have an (1 ACC * char level) advantage over autoattacks?

 

No, abilities no longer get the 1 ACC per level bonus now.

 

Guess I got confused with some PoE testing I ran the other day. Man, I can't even remember what I tested...