Two handed style seems weak

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I have made an upgrade to the model I was using, it now takes into account attack resolution (miss, graze, hit, crit), perception and weapon modals. The average DPS was computed as per the miss/graze/hit/crit distribution.

 

In the table attached there is a comparison of the average DPS of the weapons against 1-13 enemy AR. The setup used in this comparison is the following:

• 10 dex, 10 might, 10 perception
• the difference between accuracy (before weapon modifiers) and enemy's deflection is 0
• all weapons are fine quality
• When 2-handed weapon was used, two-handed style was assumed
• When dual welding 1-handed weapon, two-weapon style was assumed
• When using a single 1-handed weapon, 1-weapon style was assumed
• character is wearing heavy-armor

 

The green lines represent the DPS for using a 2-handed weapon or for dual-welding 1-handed weapons. The yellow lines represent the DPS for using a 1-handed weapon in 1-weapon style mode. The white lines following a green or yellow line represent the same setup but with the weapon modal enabled.

 

For some weapons the modal was not implemented. Among these only mace, battle axe and pike have modals that are potentially able to increase DPS in some setups.

 

Looking at the results, it seems that dual-welding clubs/daggers/rapiers (without modal) is optimal against AR 1-8. Dual welding swords with modal is optimal against AR9. Dual welding stilettos (without modal) is optimal against AR10. And using estoc with modal is optimal against AR11-13.

 

 

How does this math change when a character is not in heavy armor? i.e., in zero recovery cloth?

 

If you look at just the base weapon data, before recovery, perception, accuracy, etc., two-handers currently have a nontrivial DPS advantage. 

I suspect part of what you're seeing might be an artifact of over-long armor recovery times, multiplying by overlong two-hander recovery times, giving an outsize result. Part of the fix might be to lower armor recovery times, rather than improving 2H weapon recovery directly. With lower heavy armor recovery times, the weapon recovery on 2-handers is getting multiplied by a smaller percent (say, 135% instead of 155%) and thus the DPS penalty for heavy armor is lessened.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[dunehunter]

 

I have made an upgrade to the model I was using, it now takes into account attack resolution (miss, graze, hit, crit), perception and weapon modals. The average DPS was computed as per the miss/graze/hit/crit distribution.

 

In the table attached there is a comparison of the average DPS of the weapons against 1-13 enemy AR. The setup used in this comparison is the following:

• 10 dex, 10 might, 10 perception
• the difference between accuracy (before weapon modifiers) and enemy's deflection is 0
• all weapons are fine quality
• When 2-handed weapon was used, two-handed style was assumed
• When dual welding 1-handed weapon, two-weapon style was assumed
• When using a single 1-handed weapon, 1-weapon style was assumed
• character is wearing heavy-armor

 

The green lines represent the DPS for using a 2-handed weapon or for dual-welding 1-handed weapons. The yellow lines represent the DPS for using a 1-handed weapon in 1-weapon style mode. The white lines following a green or yellow line represent the same setup but with the weapon modal enabled.

 

For some weapons the modal was not implemented. Among these only mace, battle axe and pike have modals that are potentially able to increase DPS in some setups.

 

Looking at the results, it seems that dual-welding clubs/daggers/rapiers (without modal) is optimal against AR 1-8. Dual welding swords with modal is optimal against AR9. Dual welding stilettos (without modal) is optimal against AR10. And using estoc with modal is optimal against AR11-13.

 

 

How does this math change when a character is not in heavy armor? i.e., in zero recovery cloth?

 

If you look at just the base weapon data, before recovery, perception, accuracy, etc., two-handers currently have a nontrivial DPS advantage. 

I suspect part of what you're seeing might be an artifact of over-long armor recovery times, multiplying by overlong two-hander recovery times, giving an outsize result. Part of the fix might be to lower armor recovery times, rather than improving 2H weapon recovery directly. With lower heavy armor recovery times, the weapon recovery on 2-handers is getting multiplied by a smaller percent (say, 135% instead of 155%) and thus the DPS penalty for heavy armor is lessened.

 

 

Like I've already suggested earlier, give armor a flat recovery penalty than a % based one will fix this issue, but noone seems to like the idea

 

I think there is not space to improve 2h weapon recovery because it is already 4 sec, if you make 2h faster, then you need to adjust 1h slow/fast weapon too, and that will be a nightmare to balance again.

 

And I don't think only by improving the damage of 2h weapon will solve the problem because, why will I pick 2h sword if the recover is 6 sec(assuming i wear plate armor)? Even with the suggestion to boost its damage, ok it has same auto DPS or even slightly better than DW, 6 sec is too much for me.

 

Also there are some edge case, for example plate armor + arquebus + arquebus modal = unplayable 12+ sec recovery, u have to switch or wait half the battle for it to reload.

Edited April 16, 2018 by dunehunter

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I wouldn't exactly cry if they shaved a second of recovery off of everything, but yeah, I *feel*, subjectively, like the root issue is that armor is a bit underbalanced right now. There's very little reason to wear mid-tier armors (scale, chain, bp) because they're easily penetrated by almost all weapons, and plate and brigandine slow you down immensely, to the point that you're far better off wearing lighter gear and using buffs or debuffs for penetration-protection instead.

 

Meanwhile though, if you go the classic RPG route and try to wear heavy plate and throw around a two-hander, you'll be the Molasses Man.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[kmbogd]

@DR. Hieronymous Alloy

 

I'm still at work now but will change the armor selection in my setup to 0 penalty cloth when I get home. Do you have some particular combinations you want to get sooner? It will take me some time to complete the full table for all weapons, weapon styles and modals.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

@DR. Hieronymous Alloy

 

I'm still at work now but will change the armor selection in my setup to 0 penalty cloth when I get home. Do you have some particular combinations you want to get sooner? It will take me some time to complete the full table for all weapons, weapon styles and modals.

 

Hey we ain't in no rush here!   

 

What I'm hoping is that at some point someone (not it) puts together a generalized DPS calculator for Deadfire so that we can plug in various stat setups, weapons, modals, buffs, etc. and have it spit out the DPS with that setup -- basically, taking your work and combining it with MaxQuest's attack speed calculator. 

 

The current attack formulae seem . . . non-intuitive . . . and I think if people could just plug stuff in and get a result, we'd get a lot of interesting stuff popping out of the data. Right now it's really hard to know (for example) whether it's better to go single-handed blunderbuss or dual on PotD, or even blunderbuss/pistol with the pistol modal, etc., or how that changes once someone drops Devotions for the Faithful or an Aware inspiration, so forth so on. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[kmbogd]

You can get my file from this link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1u8I7rBUPJuwI9CaS-uQ4hmK1IY8uCI7E. I didn't manage to get the selectable fields working in google sheets so, unless you know how, you'll have to download the file and open it in excel. For some fields I've implemented some minor data validation: for example a weapon modal can be enabled only if the proper weapon is selected and if the no other modal is selected. For others I did not do this sort of data validation. Like I said, it's a work in progress and excel is not really the easiest way to do it (I'm also not a very proficient in excel as I'm learning along). Maybe someone could expand on this and create a small piece of software with a basic GUI.

[MadDemiurg]

@ dunehunter 

 

I don't think flat armor recovery penalty would work on its own. Med 1h and 2h have the same recovery. The problem with the armor penalty is that DW + style cuts it nearly in half, so regardless of whether it's flat or not DW would pull ahead.

 

Now if DW recovery reduction only applied to your base recovery and did not reduce the armor penalty, that would push DW to be more of a light armor style and allow 2h to pull ahead in heavy armor. Currently DW is the heavy armor option and 2h needs the lightest armor (where it's still not great) which feels plain wrong.

Edited April 16, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[AndreaColombo]

I'd rather speed up everything else than slow down DW, honestly. 4s recovery on weapons is already a crime in itself—I've got to pack speed bonuses or die of boredom while I stare at my guys sitting through recovery.

[dunehunter]

@ dunehunter

 

I don't think flat armor recovery penalty would work on its own. Med 1h and 2h have the same recovery. The problem with the armor penalty is that DW + style cuts it nearly in half, so regardless of whether it's flat or not DW would pull ahead.

 

Now if DW recovery reduction only applied to your base recovery and did not reduce the armor penalty, that would push DW to be more of a light armor style and allow 2h to pull ahead in heavy armor. Currently DW is the heavy armor option and 2h needs the lightest armor (where it's still not great) which feels plain wrong.

Yep you are right, now DW can be good in both heavy armor or naked option, while to be able to use 2h effective you need the lightest armor aka naked. It’s totally reversing the concept of dual dagger rogue in leather armor and heavy armor knight with 2h sword

 

Anyway, my suggestion is one step toward the right direction and try to reduce the gap between two style.

[Soulmojo]

 

 

I have made an upgrade to the model I was using, it now takes into account attack resolution (miss, graze, hit, crit), perception and weapon modals. The average DPS was computed as per the miss/graze/hit/crit distribution.

 

In the table attached there is a comparison of the average DPS of the weapons against 1-13 enemy AR. The setup used in this comparison is the following:

• 10 dex, 10 might, 10 perception
• the difference between accuracy (before weapon modifiers) and enemy's deflection is 0
• all weapons are fine quality
• When 2-handed weapon was used, two-handed style was assumed
• When dual welding 1-handed weapon, two-weapon style was assumed
• When using a single 1-handed weapon, 1-weapon style was assumed
• character is wearing heavy-armor

 

The green lines represent the DPS for using a 2-handed weapon or for dual-welding 1-handed weapons. The yellow lines represent the DPS for using a 1-handed weapon in 1-weapon style mode. The white lines following a green or yellow line represent the same setup but with the weapon modal enabled.

 

For some weapons the modal was not implemented. Among these only mace, battle axe and pike have modals that are potentially able to increase DPS in some setups.

 

Looking at the results, it seems that dual-welding clubs/daggers/rapiers (without modal) is optimal against AR 1-8. Dual welding swords with modal is optimal against AR9. Dual welding stilettos (without modal) is optimal against AR10. And using estoc with modal is optimal against AR11-13.

 

 

How does this math change when a character is not in heavy armor? i.e., in zero recovery cloth?

 

If you look at just the base weapon data, before recovery, perception, accuracy, etc., two-handers currently have a nontrivial DPS advantage. 

I suspect part of what you're seeing might be an artifact of over-long armor recovery times, multiplying by overlong two-hander recovery times, giving an outsize result. Part of the fix might be to lower armor recovery times, rather than improving 2H weapon recovery directly. With lower heavy armor recovery times, the weapon recovery on 2-handers is getting multiplied by a smaller percent (say, 135% instead of 155%) and thus the DPS penalty for heavy armor is lessened.

 

 

Like I've already suggested earlier, give armor a flat recovery penalty than a % based one will fix this issue, but noone seems to like the idea

 

I think there is not space to improve 2h weapon recovery because it is already 4 sec, if you make 2h faster, then you need to adjust 1h slow/fast weapon too, and that will be a nightmare to balance again.

 

And I don't think only by improving the damage of 2h weapon will solve the problem because, why will I pick 2h sword if the recover is 6 sec(assuming i wear plate armor)? Even with the suggestion to boost its damage, ok it has same auto DPS or even slightly better than DW, 6 sec is too much for me.

 

Also there are some edge case, for example plate armor + arquebus + arquebus modal = unplayable 12+ sec recovery, u have to switch or wait half the battle for it to reload.

 

 

 

I don't believe you have to adjust speeds for 1handers. Greatsword, Estoc, staff are quite fast weapons. almost as fast as a one handed, you just use their features differently. 

It is a myth that 2 handed weapons are slow and it is a myth that at same speeds it will perform better than dual wielded one handers 

I really believe that 2handed weapons should be as fast as one handed weapons. If you score a hit with both battleaxe and add together the damage of two numbers it does much more than a greatsword but it also gets 30% additional recovery bonus. at half speed. So in essence if you want to balance 2 handed weapons they should be at least the same speed. 

Plus small fast weapons dps should be fixed and shields. A hefty crit damage bonus to the first, and to incorporate the shelds as weapons.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Boeroer]

But... two handed weapons do have the same speed as the heavy one handers in Deadfire, don't they?

 

It's not a myth that two handers do perform better when they are wielded with the same speed as one handers. It's physics.

[Soulmojo]

But... two handed weapons do have the same speed as the heavy one handers in Deadfire, don't they?

 

It's not a myth that two handers do perform better when they are wielded with the same speed as one handers. It's physics.

 

Awww man, don't twist my words...You know what I'm talking about.

 

I watched IRL two man fencing with Flamberges. Two trainers teaching german medieval fencing. Both attacked in quick succesion, I admit some part of it was show, but one thing was obvious, a guy with a 2 handed sword is just about as fast and can attack just about the same amount as a guy using one handed weapon.

 

Anyhow if two handed recovery speeds are not adjusted to be faster, it will be very boring. Plus the player will be discouraged to use 2 handed. I am. 

I use 2 handed with my merc. warrior, but warrior is semi useless to me anyhow at least he could finish off enemies with a 2 handed relatively dependably.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Boeroer]

I don't want to mock you or twist your words or anything like that. I don't know if what you said is really a thing, because:

 

In Deadfire the recovery of two handers is not longer than that of the heavier one handers (or am I mistaken)? So it's already like "in real life" as you said.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I don't want to mock you or twist your words or anything like that. I don't know if what you said is really a thing, because:

 

In Deadfire the recovery of two handers is not longer than that of the heavier one handers (or am I mistaken)? So it's already like "in real life" as you said.

 

 

Or more precisely, two-handers have the same recovery as sabres, maces, war hammers, and sceptres.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gsz3Hd_3HPs6RtE5YFTfSUzcPNRUY2h9yy733Jp5_50/edit#gid=0

 

All the recovery times are a bit long imho for everything (including spells) but that goes back to the D&D convention of the "round" etc.

[dunehunter]

At least I feel DW is OK, even in plate armor you can attack around 3 sec, but 2h and single weapon, well u need almost double recovery time for heavy armor.

 

Slow hard hit weapon is only good at backstabbing and disengagement attacks imo, if raw DoT like wound stacks, it gonna be worse at causing wounds too.

Edited April 18, 2018 by dunehunter

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

One big question is, how does all this change once you start adding recovery speed reductions in? Armored Grace, weapon enchants, etc.?

 

I know there are now diminshing returns for attack speed bonuses in deadfire but I don't know what those bonuses are. It's possible that DW is better at low levels but two-handers dominate at high levels once the speed advantage from DW gets made up for by other enchants.

[Soulmojo]

I don't want to mock you or twist your words or anything like that. I don't know if what you said is really a thing, because:

 

In Deadfire the recovery of two handers is not longer than that of the heavier one handers (or am I mistaken)? So it's already like "in real life" as you said.

 

Is it? Man, then why do I remember slower base recovery?   I'm so confused right now. I recant if that is the case...and thanks for pointing out that to me

[Boeroer]

It's all good.

 

I still think that two handers (or two handed style) needs a bit of a buff - or the other styles a biut of a nerf - to balance weapons styles better. 

[MadDemiurg]

Tbh I think it's DW that's OP. Shields seem nerfed due to shield modals. With modals, you do have great survivability, but your dps is horrible. Basically, shields are a mage item, dual hatchets are the way to go otherwise. 1h was always quite niche.

[Boeroer]

They already nerfed dual wielding from 50% to 30%. 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

They already nerfed dual wielding from 50% to 30%. 

 

Yeah, but recovery reduction seems more valuable now -- recovery time is a bigger number, armor recovery penalties are much more severe, etc., so a 30% recovery bonus now nets out to a much bigger effect than a 30% reduction bonus in the prior game, because 30% of 100 is a bigger number than 30% of 10. Said another way, in the first game, a 30% recovery speed boost might mean you get to make four attacks instead of three in a ten-second period; now it might mean you get to make 2 attacks instead of 1.

 

This could be something that goes *poof* due to stacking diminishing returns once the full game is out and there are more recovery-reduction effects, though. I still suspect it's more an armor / recovery time issue than specifically a DW one, though, it's just that the DW benefit is outsize-valuable (at least in the beta).

Edited April 18, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[kmbogd]

One big question is, how does all this change once you start adding recovery speed reductions in? Armored Grace, weapon enchants, etc.?

 

I know there are now diminshing returns for attack speed bonuses in deadfire but I don't know what those bonuses are. It's possible that DW is better at low levels but two-handers dominate at high levels once the speed advantage from DW gets made up for by other enchants.

 

This is a good observation. I went ahead and introduced in the file I shared with you the following scenario:

 

• dex 35, might 10, perception 10
• no armor
• for dual welding, two weapon style
• for two handed weapons, two-handed style
• fine quality
• no weapon modal

Due to the "diminishing returns" nature of the formulae, dual-welding bonuses get diluted. Attached is a brief comparison of the average DPS of 4 weapons against various enemy AR's in the above scenario.

 

This being said, I believe that it will be too late in the game until one can experience the diminishing returns for dual welding (unless one really likes a glass character with no armor whatsoever and lots of recovery bonuses) to make two-handed finally on par.

Edited April 18, 2018 by kmbogd

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

• dex 35, might 10, perception 10
• no armor
• for dual welding, two weapon style
• for two handed weapons, two-handed style
• fine quality
• no weapon modal

Due to the "diminishing returns" nature of the formulae, dual-welding bonuses get diluted. Attached is a brief comparison of the average DPS of 4 weapons against various enemy AR's in the above scenario.

 

This being said, I believe that it will be too late in the game until one can experience the diminishing returns for dual welding (unless one really likes a glass character with no armor whatsoever and lots of recovery bonuses) to make two-handed finally on par.

 

 

 

Ok that's really interesting. 

 

One thing that is sortof weird about the beta is that there are a lot of things we haven't seen yet, which could make it not-that-hard to cap out your stats, especially near endgame. For example, if there's a party-wide Dex inspiration buff (like there are for Con, Might, Res, and Per in the beta), then 25 dex is readily achievable, and if you add a +5 Dex item (which isn't unrealistic either given that the last game had +4), then a 30 Dex character becomes fairly feasible. Then add in food and drug bonuses . . . 

 

as you say though it's a mistake to balance vs. endgame because most of the game is not endgame, definitionally.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[dunehunter]

They already nerfed dual wielding from 50% to 30%.

They nerf dw from 50% to 30% yes, but they also change the recovery calculation formula. It feels like the old -50% recovery time is similar with the current -30% because of formula change. Maybe MaxQuest or some one can confirm my guess.

[MadDemiurg]

Well, as far as I can tell, one difference from PoE1 is that recovery bonuses are multiplicative which makes higher recovery reduction styles inherently better with armor.

 

Another difference is that DR is not a flat value anymore, which devalues heavy hitting weapons significantly.

 

Whatever the nerf for DW was, it's still significantly ahead in terms of dps in the current state and allows to get better survivability with less dps loss as well, so apparently it was not enough. That's not even getting into full attack spam cheese, cause dw dps just skyrockets here. Unless higher levels offer other significant sources of recovery reduction DW would likely stay ahead for the whole game. And if they do, it's still a crappy way to balance things, all styles should be viable at all levels.

 

The next thing to look out for are -50% recovery modals, they're OP too if you manage to get enough accuracy.

 

Basically compared to 1h, DW trades 12 accuracy and 20% hit to crit for -44% recovery.

 

-recovery hunting bow and pistol modals trade 15 acc for -50% recovery. You can single wield a pistol to get similar effects to dualwielding minus the full attack cheese. Hunting bow has +5 acc, so if you're playing a high acc build you could probably take -10 acc for almost double attack speed.

 

If you don't want dw nerfs you'll have to buff pretty much everything else to bring it in line with dw. Which is more work and would make the game even easier. But PotD is in dire need of monster buffing as is.

Edited April 19, 2018 by MadDemiurg