Why the hell are they dumbing down the game?

[InsaneCommander]

Moral is a mechanics tied to crew. Feed them with hardtacks for too long and they be unhappy, gaining xp slower, possibly rebelling etc.

 

 

 

Ok, I'll have to do that in one of my playthroughs. I hope it causes a battle so that I can beat them into submission.

[Guest Ontarah]

Anyway, I don't really feel like you had to had a super optimized party to get by in POE

 

True.  I said "party optimization" but I more meant party micromanagement as I wasn't even really thinking of designing your own party.   I tend to forget this is even an option because I have 0 interest in doing so in an RPG that has party members with characters and dialogue and quests and whatnot.

 

Though you do still get to build said party members however you like aside from their class and attributes.  And given the amount of attribute boosting items, resting bonuses, and whatnot, you can kinda get most of their combat stats to whatever you need/want them to be with the right approach to micromanagement.  

 

Some examples of what precisely I mean by "arbitrary cheapness":

 

The over the top (by both limiting camping supplies *and* making it impossible to cast spells before combat) and yet still ineffectual way they went about trying to prevent rest spamming, which had a really simple solution that worked even back in Ye Olde Infinity Engine Days: player discipline.  If you think rest spamming makes the game feel cheap and non-challenging then *gasp* just don't rest spam.  Considering none of the fights in PoE or the old Infinity Engine games were balanced around the assumption that the player *must* rest after every single encounter, the only thing compelling players to rest incessantly is lack of self control.  And even if they do opt for this constraint there is 0 need to employ both of them.  If you limit resting, there is 0 need to constrain buffing spells to combat because if I can't rest spam, I'm not going to spam haste and defensive harmony and such before every single fight with trash mobs.  I'm going to save them for the mini boss when they matter.  It also means that it removes any practical benefit of scouting ahead.  What precisely is the point of scouting ahead to learn the next room is full of vampires if I can't cast negative energy protection and chaotic commands on my front line guys to prep for the fight but am forced to wait until we run in like a bunch of idiots and half of them get dominated or level drained waiting for my slowass caster as they get spammed by instantaneous innate abilities?  

 

Or attempts to prevent fog of war abuse by constraining rest spamming *and* marking AoE for most offensive sells pitifully small even with high intellect *and* making it impossible to cast them outside combat when any one of those 3 would have done the trick.  (Not to mention that this ceased being a problem even in the later Infinity Engine games because they just fixed the previously dumb AI to come attack you even if you were dealing them damage in fog of war with cloudkill or whatever). 

 

Or multiple others.

 

I could give a big list of precisely what I meant by "arbitrary cheapness" in POE but it seems counterproductive for multiple reasons including the general trollish, baity nature of this thread and the fact that most of those issues are apparently being addressed in PoED so it would just be kicking a dead horse. 

[Katarack21]

Just an aside, was there really anything wrong with Resolve? In my playthroughs, I found Perception and Resolve the primary attributes for my Paladin

Did you ever play a mage? You used to be able to dump resolve down to 3 on a mage and gobble those points up in spell damage and area effect with no consequences whatsoever.

 

Every stat *WASN'T* useful for everybody, because resolve was utterly useless for ranged spell-based characters.

[SonicMage117]

Yes, I would expect those kinds of awesome additions in sequels to broaden appeal to bring in new types audience, especially since the foundation was laid from before, but these new features usually come at the extent of others (not always though). Is there anything that BG2 sacrificed from the first game? The answer, I believe is - in short - "No."

 

But as a different time, developers are focused on different things. For example, BG2 was never re-designed for console port in mind but Deadfire is on that opposite spectrum so what will be changed and how will it affect us Steam gamers is what I am often asking myself. Luckily, the game is on Unity Engine so that could make it much easier for the Obsidian - Pillar's Team to not have to sacrifice but I won't know for certain until several playthroughs.

[Elkor_Alish]

Did you ever play a mage? You used to be able to dump resolve down to 3 on a mage and gobble those points up in spell damage and area effect with no consequences whatsoever.

 

Every stat *WASN'T* useful for everybody, because resolve was utterly useless for ranged spell-based characters.

And being able to drive it down to three wasn't useful to you? I am really not seeing the complaint

Edited March 19, 2018 by Elkor_Alish

[Guest Ontarah]

Just an aside, was there really anything wrong with Resolve? In my playthroughs, I found Perception and Resolve the primary attributes for my Paladin, with Dex and Intelligence my second tier. Con and Might were my dump stats for the most part. I mean, I had five other dudes to build for combat support, but only one for dialogue and discovery. All he really needed to do was be competent and hold his own.

 

Which he did. Better than Durance, that is for damn sure.

 

My main issue with resolve is how much it mattered in dialogue, but how otherwise generally useless/not necessary it was.  I felt like dialogue checks overwhelmingly favored Resolve, Perception, and Intellect in that order, which meant you had to sacrifice necessary proficiency for most melee characters if you wanted to be decent at conversations.  It felt like I had a binary smart puny guy/big dumb beefy guy choice that was disappointingly constraining.  That and a lot of the fighter type dialogue checks like Might tended to be overwhelmingly Intimidate jerkish type responses.  This would be just as easily fixed by resolving issues with the dialogue system as with the attribute system itself though.  Just include more non-jerk Might/Dex/Con checks so I feel like my big beefy guy can do something else besides club xaurips over the head and shake down peasants for their last coppers. 

[Guest]

My head-canon fighter stats are M:13, D:9, C:11, P:15, I:14, R:16 (Aedyr). I guess I’m not seeing the issue. Want someone who can pass the dialog checks, then build a character that can pass the dialog checks.

[Wormerine]

For example, BG2 was never re-designed for console port in mind but Deadfire is on that opposite spectrum so what will be changed and how will it affect us Steam gamers is what I am often asking myself.

BG2 was ported for tablets. Deadfire is ported to consoles. The situation is the same. Devs make the game for PC, other studio makes a port. 

[Guest Ontarah]

My head-canon fighter stats are M:13, D:9, C:11, P:15, I:14, R:16 (Aedyr). I guess I’m not seeing the issue. Want someone who can pass the dialog checks, then build a character that can pass the dialog checks.

 

I do.  What precisely is the problem with there being *more* variety of dialogue checks though?  As is, Resolve kinda works like Persuade in that it is frequently a "get out of jail free/magically get the best option by sheer will" card.  Why can't *all* stats do that *sometimes* and no single stat have an overwhelming advantage there?  Why can't there be various valid ways to build a viable conversationalist as well as a combatant?

Edited March 19, 2018 by Ontarah

[Yenkaz]

 

Anyway, I don't really feel like you had to had a super optimized party to get by in POE

 

True.  I said "party optimization" but I more meant party micromanagement as I wasn't even really thinking of designing your own party.   I tend to forget this is even an option because I have 0 interest in doing so in an RPG that has party members with characters and dialogue and quests and whatnot.

 

Though you do still get to build said party members however you like aside from their class and attributes.  And given the amount of attribute boosting items, resting bonuses, and whatnot, you can kinda get most of their combat stats to whatever you need/want them to be with the right approach to micromanagement.  

 

Some examples of what precisely I mean by "arbitrary cheapness":

 

The over the top (by both limiting camping supplies *and* making it impossible to cast spells before combat) and yet still ineffectual way they went about trying to prevent rest spamming, which had a really simple solution that worked even back in Ye Olde Infinity Engine Days: player discipline.  If you think rest spamming makes the game feel cheap and non-challenging then *gasp* just don't rest spam.  Considering none of the fights in PoE or the old Infinity Engine games were balanced around the assumption that the player *must* rest after every single encounter, the only thing compelling players to rest incessantly is lack of self control.  And even if they do opt for this constraint there is 0 need to employ both of them.  If you limit resting, there is 0 need to constrain buffing spells to combat because if I can't rest spam, I'm not going to spam haste and defensive harmony and such before every single fight with trash mobs.  I'm going to save them for the mini boss when they matter.  It also means that it removes any practical benefit of scouting ahead.  What precisely is the point of scouting ahead to learn the next room is full of vampires if I can't cast negative energy protection and chaotic commands on my front line guys to prep for the fight but am forced to wait until we run in like a bunch of idiots and half of them get dominated or level drained waiting for my slowass caster as they get spammed by instantaneous innate abilities?  

 

Or attempts to prevent fog of war abuse by constraining rest spamming *and* marking AoE for most offensive sells pitifully small even with high intellect *and* making it impossible to cast them outside combat when any one of those 3 would have done the trick.  (Not to mention that this ceased being a problem even in the later Infinity Engine games because they just fixed the previously dumb AI to come attack you even if you were dealing them damage in fog of war with cloudkill or whatever). 

 

Or multiple others.

 

I could give a big list of precisely what I meant by "arbitrary cheapness" in POE but it seems counterproductive for multiple reasons including the general trollish, baity nature of this thread and the fact that most of those issues are apparently being addressed in PoED so it would just be kicking a dead horse. 

 

 

I'd disagree about the tents in the sense that any games imposes limitations upon the player. Some players enjoy the sense of planning ahead and resource management (say, playing F:NV in survival mode as well), others don't.

 

When I first played POE it was just after release. When I replayed it for Deadfire, it was 3.whatever. They really did a good job in the meantime with the party member AI settings. I feel ambivalent about the pre-buffing, with the combat-only limitation it makes the use of your buffer more critical to decide when to buff and when to do something else instead of doing it all beforehand.

 

I agree it ruins the point of scouting ahead - I never bothered in POE.... but nor did I honestly in BG2.

[Yenkaz]

 

My head-canon fighter stats are M:13, D:9, C:11, P:15, I:14, R:16 (Aedyr). I guess I’m not seeing the issue. Want someone who can pass the dialog checks, then build a character that can pass the dialog checks.

 

I do.  What precisely is the problem with there being *more* variety of dialogue checks though?  As is, Resolve kinda works like Persuade in that it is frequently a "get out of jail free/magically get the best option by sheer will" card.  Why can't *all* stats do that *sometimes* and no single stat have an overwhelming advantage there?  Why can't there be various valid ways to build a viable conversationalist as well as a combatant?

 

 

Sorry for double-posting, can't work the quote properly into my other post.

 

You can, it'd just mean that you would have to spread your stats out a little. You could get by with 10 resolve and bonuses to pass 18-20 checks, but more manageable 13-ish would make most available with equipment. You were only really limited if you made resolve a dump stat... which I can't do for any stat. I just can't make myself make any attribute lower than 8-9.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Yenkaz

[Guest]

Why can't *all* stats do that *sometimes* and no single stat have an overwhelming advantage there? Why can't there be various valid ways to build a viable conversationalist as well as a combatant?

*looks at post you’re replying to*

 

Err...

 

Not sure you picked this up, but there are multiple stats being emphasized there. And you do occasionally see Might show up. Unfortunately those options are typically boring, so I don’t lose sleep over them.

 

Oh and that build is very much viable.

[Guest Ontarah]

@Yenkaz

 

The amount of meta-gaming that requires though.  Basically, what I'm getting at is that I wish there was less of this "Egads!  My resolve is too low and so I must reload and equip the Boots of Wondrous Willpower +3 and run back to that village 2 days away and sleep in the Heavenly Hayloft of +2 Resolve and try again!"

 

This is just...inane.

 

There are instances where stuff like this can make sense.  I'm reminded of that drinking game in the tavern in NWN based on constitution where it's *obvious* that you are about to get into a drinking competition so you can go cast Bear's Endurance of yourself or whatever.

 

I don't want my choices to be limited to 1. dump points in Resolve for characters that don't need it or 2. metagame or 3. Suck at dialogue generally

 

When a scenario with much more roleplaying potential is available of 1. Chose from various conversation boosting stats to be good at a non trivial number of conversations without sacrificing fighting ability or 2. Chose to boost conversation stats generally so you are good at dialogue generally with the consequence of being less good at fighting

Edited March 19, 2018 by Ontarah

[Guest Ontarah]

 

Why can't *all* stats do that *sometimes* and no single stat have an overwhelming advantage there? Why can't there be various valid ways to build a viable conversationalist as well as a combatant?

*looks at post you’re replying to*

 

Err...

 

Not sure you picked this up, but there are multiple stats being emphasized there. And you do occasionally see Might show up. Unfortunately those options are typically boring, so I don’t lose sleep over them.

 

Oh and that build is very much viable.

 

 

Where did I say it wasn't viable?  My current guy off the top of my head is like Might 13, Con 10-11, Dex 10-11, Per 14ish, Intellect 16, Resolve 15 or something like that.  I'm not on my home PC so I can't get him up to view exact stats.  He's *fine.*  I am beating the game with him.  He's also substantively less effective than he could be.

 

Also, are you denying that Resolve doesn't enjoy a clear advantage especially in advantageous quest resolution?  This is like borderline axiomatic.  If you haven't noticed it, I don't know what to tell you. 

 

Also, how is "occasionally" seeing "boring" Might options show up not clearly inferior to "occasionally" seeing *interesting* Might options show up, which is what I'm asking for?

[Tanos]

I don't like the Health/Endurance system in PoE. I will either run out of health before using all of my spells so it looks like I don't need to decide carefully when to use them or I will use them all the time and again they won't look like an important resource to save for special occasions. But this may be my impression now because recently I've only played on high levels, when I have lots of spells.

 

Could also be because I play different from most people. I never spam rest, I only rest when it makes sense, like when I go to a new city/village or too much time has passed. Or when I explore an entire level of a dungeon and it feels safe to rest.

 

I don't think I'll miss it.

 

As for the new casting system, it does look worse, but I don't have enough information to judge it yet.

Much like you i never "spam" rest and i limit and manage my spell usage so it will coincide with  my health loss usually resulting in 1 or sometimes 2 rests per area. Unfortunately people who prefer a more strategic and adapting approach are going to be a bit disappointed. By introducing the per encounter approach with far fewer casts(1-2) per spell level the flexibility of the system has become quite... limiting. Combined with the extremely narrowed down spell selection (2 spells per spell level) you are essentially forced into having at most 2 approaches to rotate through for every single encounter you will ever have for the entire game provided you diversify your spell selection and there is absolutely nothing you can do about that and still have a viable character.

 

On the bright side most physical classes gained some more versatility by having a resource pool instead of a set number of usages per ability. Unfortunately they are and have always been far less versatile than casters despite this and does not make up for the loss of combat options for the caster types.

 

The only thing in the game that could potentially give some versatility to a run in combat (aside from changing companions) would be consumable items, but there has yet to be proven if the crafting system is robust enough to make any kind of significant impact in that apartment. So be prepared to have your entire game plan be determined at character creation and levelups, because the current system doesn't seem versatile enough to allow for dynamically changing game-plans in combat.

 

But that's enough expression of disappointment from me for a single post. I just wanted to share my opinions on the subject.

Have a good one.

[Guest]

 

 

Why can't *all* stats do that *sometimes* and no single stat have an overwhelming advantage there? Why can't there be various valid ways to build a viable conversationalist as well as a combatant?

*looks at post you’re replying to*

 

Err...

 

Not sure you picked this up, but there are multiple stats being emphasized there. And you do occasionally see Might show up. Unfortunately those options are typically boring, so I don’t lose sleep over them.

 

Oh and that build is very much viable.

Where did I say it wasn't viable? My current guy off the top of my head is like Might 13, Con 10-11, Dex 10-11, Per 14ish, Intellect 16, Resolve 15 or something like that. I'm not on my home PC so I can't get him up to view exact stats. He's *fine.* I am beating the game with him. He's also substantively less effective than he could be.

 

Also, are you denying that Resolve doesn't enjoy a clear advantage especially in advantageous quest resolution? This is like borderline axiomatic. If you haven't noticed it, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Also, how is "occasionally" seeing "boring" Might options show up not clearly inferior to "occasionally" seeing *interesting* Might options show up, which is what I'm asking for?

“Why can't there be various valid ways to build a viable conversationalist as well as a combatant?”

 

I posted one. Apparently you’re playing another. That’s two right there. How many before we can officially call it “various“?

 

“He's also substantively less effective than he could be.”

 

Effective at what? Sounds like it’s pretty effective at passing dialog checks.

 

“Also, are you denying that Resolve doesn't enjoy a clear advantage especially in advantageous quest resolution?”

 

“Clear” is debatable, but I’m not interested in belaboring that point (personally, I lean toward the Intellect options as even the Resolve choices can be a bit douchey). So let’s just give you the benefit of the doubt and say that 90% of the dialog checks can be resolved with Resolve? So. ****ing. What? No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you that you have to pass them. You’re making a conscious choice to prioritize this aspect of the game then complaining that the devs didn’t do it in a manner that you find pleasing? I just want to make sure that I’m understanding the argument correctly.

 

FWIW, they have stated that they are going to “spread the love” a little more in Deadfire when it comes to stat reactivity. Will I get to hear more about your wants and desires if they don’t write these options in a way that you agree with (ala “hulk smash”)?

Edited March 19, 2018 by Achilles

[Katarack21]

 

Did you ever play a mage? You used to be able to dump resolve down to 3 on a mage and gobble those points up in spell damage and area effect with no consequences whatsoever.

 

Every stat *WASN'T* useful for everybody, because resolve was utterly useless for ranged spell-based characters.

And being able to drive it down to three wasn't useful to you? I am really not seeing the complaint

 

Being "useful" doesn't mean "fun" or "good game design".

[DexGames]

 

 

Did you ever play a mage? You used to be able to dump resolve down to 3 on a mage and gobble those points up in spell damage and area effect with no consequences whatsoever.

 

Every stat *WASN'T* useful for everybody, because resolve was utterly useless for ranged spell-based characters.

And being able to drive it down to three wasn't useful to you? I am really not seeing the complaint

 

Being "useful" doesn't mean "fun" or "good game design".

 

 

& so ? Might was bad design because you used to dump down Resolve on your Mages ?

EDIT : Nevermind, good news dropped.

Edited March 19, 2018 by DexGames

[Guest Ontarah]

I posted one. Apparently you’re playing another. That’s two right there. How many before we can officially call it “various“?

Two basically identical builds differing only by like 1 point in any given stat is "various?" I'm starting to think you aren't actually reading my posts, man.  

 

Effective at what? Sounds like it’s pretty effective at passing dialog checks.

Fighting. Duh. That is what we are discussing. Sacrificing fighting ability for dialog ability and vice versa. 

 

So let’s just give you the benefit of the doubt and say that 90% of the dialog checks can be resolved with Resolve? So. ****ing. What? No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you that you have to pass them. You’re making a conscious choice to prioritize this aspect of the game then complaining that the devs didn’t do it in a manner that you find pleasing? I just want to make sure that I’m understanding the argument correctly.

Dude, this argument is willfully inane and I think you are well aware of that. But I can engage in some putting words in people's mouths inane arguments too so here goes: You are officially advocating for *less* choice in an RPG, no? Or is it just that you think it's inherently silly to criticize any choice Obsidian makes in regards the game because I don't *have* to do it the way they designed it and can instead chose to just suck at it? So what if, say, 75% of dialogue checks could only be made by an orlan PC wearing a pink leotard? I assume that you would be consistent and maintain that "nobody is forcing you to make those checks" with that as well? 

 

FWIW, they have stated that they are going to “spread the love” a little more in Deadfire when it comes to stat reactivity. Will I get to hear more about your wants and desires if they don’t write these options in a way that you agree with (ala “hulk smash”)?

Um, you are aware this is a forum, no? So, yes, I will be venturing opinions about the game if I feel like it, negative and positive both. (Probably positive if the dialogue checks go more in this direction). I was unaware this was the "Accept everything Obsidian does without criticism/agree with Achilless" echo chamber.

 

*Edit* A bunch of edits to get the quoting and spacing right.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Ontarah

[JerekKruger]

Fighting. Duh. That is what we are discussing. Sacrificing fighting ability for dialog ability and vice versa.

 

Attributes are nowhere near as important in Pillars as people seem to give them credit for. A Fighter with 13 Might will do less damage than a Fighter with 20, but it's really not all that noticeable, especially once you start picking up other +Damage bonuses.

[mostundesired]

The only thing in the game that could potentially give some versatility to a run in combat (aside from changing companions) would be consumable items, but there has yet to be proven if the crafting system is robust enough to make any kind of significant impact in that apartment. So be prepared to have your entire game plan be determined at character creation and levelups, because the current system doesn't seem versatile enough to allow for dynamically changing game-plans in combat.

 

 

In additon, Wizards can switch grimoires to access different spells and IIRC Priests get bonus spells per power level, for whatever that's worth. I'm guessing it's not a lot, but better than nothing.

[Guest]

 

Fighting. Duh. That is what we are discussing. Sacrificing fighting ability for dialog ability and vice versa.

Attributes are nowhere near as important in Pillars as people seem to give them credit for. A Fighter with 13 Might will do less damage than a Fighter with 20, but it's really not all that noticeable, especially once you start picking up other +Damage bonuses.

Hey Ontarah, you should read this.

[Elkor_Alish]

 

 

Fighting. Duh. That is what we are discussing. Sacrificing fighting ability for dialog ability and vice versa.

Attributes are nowhere near as important in Pillars as people seem to give them credit for. A Fighter with 13 Might will do less damage than a Fighter with 20, but it's really not all that noticeable, especially once you start picking up other +Damage bonuses.

 

Hey Ontarah, you should read this.

 

I am confirm this. My paladin had both the most crits delivered and most damage dealt in my party statistics in spite of his 10 might.

[Guest Ontarah]

It isn't just might though. I'm talking about everything, constitution and dexterity too. Potentially even perception.

 

The point is that resolve and intellect are both reasonably useless for tank type characters or non spellcasters generally. They do some good yes, but they are arguably not as useful as the other stats yet they are indispensable if you want to be good at dialogue. And it creates the aforementioned you can either be good at dialogue or good at melee combat but not both. However you can be both excellent at dialogue and excellent at magical combat. Or excellent at dialogue and excellent in ranged combat. Why this arbitrary distinction when it could be easily solved by just providing more dialogue checks based on something besides intellect and resolve?

 

I am sincerely failing to understand what is even remotely controversial about this opinion or why anybody wouldn't want this in the game.

[Guest]

And it creates the aforementioned you can either be good at dialogue or good at melee combat but not both. 

This just isn't true.

 

Perception helps high interrupt front-liners. Intellect helps with the handful of duration or area fighter abilities (like knockdown or clear-out). Resolve increases deflection and helps to make sure that you're interrupter (not the interruptee).

 

The few points you're diverting away from might were never going to make that big of a difference (which isn't to say that they make no difference at all).