'Good' archetype characters at huge disadvantage?

[Vaneglorious]

Hi.

 

Just wanted to talk about the game's apparent issue with intermixing role playing elements and stat bonuses as rewards.

 

Gift of the Machine, the Blood Pool (idk if that's the name, been a while), Merciless Hand from the Doemenels. These are all quite impressive stat boosts to your MC, which are completely avoided if you choose to be a 'good guy'.

 

Once long ago I read a person's post on reddit, claiming he chose the 'evil path', because it's a ton more challenging. I was intrigued by it, so I went down that path myself on my 1st playthrough, only to find out the amazing bonuses 'evil' characters can receive.

 

Am I missing something? Or is it really the case? I really want to play as a 'good' MC for once, but I feel like I'm being quite restricted if I want to be a damage dealer of any sort. I don't know how to feel about playing as a tank, definitely don't want to be a supporting type on my MC.

 

Can you guys give some insight whether a 'good' character can get any decent bonuses stat-wise?

[Boeroer]

Nope, you can't. I mean if you side with the Crucible Knights you get +2 DR which is not bad, but there are no other specific bonuses for beeing benevolent and honest other than knowing you are the good guy and everybody's darling.

 

The bonuses from Gift from the Machine and Effigy's Resentment (the ones you can get for being cruel) are not that important by the way. They are only minor things. 

[Vaneglorious]

Guess I'll have to make due.

 

I hope they'll balance it out more in PoE 2.

[qEin]

Well idk how to tell you without spoiling too much but there is a quest almost at the very end of the game that gives you +1 to three stats when you choose the "good" resolution.

[Boeroer]

Is it really "good" though?

 

Whatever - if you choose the peaceful way you don't get some precious resources if I remember correctly...?

[Juodas Varnas]

Well idk how to tell you without spoiling too much but there is a quest almost at the very end of the game that gives you +1 to three stats when you choose the "good" resolution.

Eh, i'm not entirely sure that's a 'good' resolution. Peaceful and diplomatic, yes, but not necessarily good or bad.

 

But, in my opinion, i think 'evil' options SHOULD be more rewarding, more enticing. 

Good guys finish last, as you know.

[Vaneglorious]

In the previous RPG games it was usually like if you chose to be good, you had much better rep overall, and people helped you out, was easier to get by. I remember back in Baldur's Gate if you were evil, you were in for a rough time, with all those Flaming Fist guys hunting you in every city and town, for example.

 

What I really miss is follower disposition. Like there were 'good' and 'evil' type followers that always voiced their opinion on your actions, and if you strayed too far from their beliefs, they'd abandon your cause or even turn on you. IIRC it was like that in NWN 2, which was also made by Obsidian.

 

I'm not sure what PoE 2 has in store, but I'm secretly hoping they will add something similar. I also hope my decisions will carry over somewhat, at least. PoE resurrected the isometric cRPG genre for me, so I'm really hopeful they will nail it with 2. Either way, I'm getting the game on release day, and that day can't come fast enough.

 

@qEin I'd ask you to spoil it, but this is the no spoiler section, so I probably can't.

[JerekKruger]

I hope they'll balance it out more in PoE 2.

 

I don't. "Evil" options should be more rewarding. It results in an actual roleplaying dilemma i.e. you have to ask yourself whether your character would hurt others for personal gain or not. If it's balanced out then that dilemma disappears since you'll gain either way.

 

Whatever - if you choose the peaceful way you don't get some precious resources if I remember correctly...?

 

If I recall correctly you still get the important ones i.e.

 

 

The grimoire and the dragon scales.

 

[Boeroer]

Ah, ok. Thanks. It has been a while.

[Torm51]

In the previous RPG games it was usually like if you chose to be good, you had much better rep overall, and people helped you out, was easier to get by. I remember back in Baldur's Gate if you were evil, you were in for a rough time, with all those Flaming Fist guys hunting you in every city and town, for example.

 

What I really miss is follower disposition. Like there were 'good' and 'evil' type followers that always voiced their opinion on your actions, and if you strayed too far from their beliefs, they'd abandon your cause or even turn on you. IIRC it was like that in NWN 2, which was also made by Obsidian.

 

I'm not sure what PoE 2 has in store, but I'm secretly hoping they will add something similar. I also hope my decisions will carry over somewhat, at least. PoE resurrected the isometric cRPG genre for me, so I'm really hopeful they will nail it with 2. Either way, I'm getting the game on release day, and that day can't come fast enough.

 

@qEin I'd ask you to spoil it, but this is the no spoiler section, so I probably can't.

There are certain followers who will leave if you make certain decisions.

[JerekKruger]

Ah, ok. Thanks. It has been a while.

Yeah I can imagine given a lot of your enjoyment of the game comes from the challenge of hard fights.

[Boeroer]

Yeah, but it's the earlier fights that are quite hard (given your own low level) that I like most. Like... when you rush Penhelm for example. Not necessarily the big bosses. 

[JerekKruger]

True. I like taking on those forest shamblers near the shrine of Galawain at low level for a challenge.

[ArnoldRimmer]

Guess I'll have to make due.

 

I hope they'll balance it out more in PoE 2.

 

 

No they won't.. I started a thread about this: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91683-good-people-need-some-perm-ability-score-bonuses/ and basically half the people thought it was fine and that "...people who are good shouldn't do things for rewards" or asked questions about "what is good anyway?" completely missing the poing that this is a game not an a study into types of ethical theory.

 

Someone even asked in one of the director's Q&A vids mentioning my thread (i was pleased!) - His reply was basicallly he doesn't think they need to be equal and wont be balancing good/evil perm stat bonuses. So lookfoward in deadfire to bad dudes getting loads of perm ability bonuses while "good" guys get an extra 20 copper pieces from the quest giver for doing the "right thing"

Edited January 24, 2018 by ArnoldRimmer

[Vaneglorious]

 

Guess I'll have to make due.

 

I hope they'll balance it out more in PoE 2.

 

 

No they won't.. I started a thread about this: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91683-good-people-need-some-perm-ability-score-bonuses/ and basically half the people thought it was fine and that "...people who are good shouldn't do things for rewards" or asked questions about "what is good anyway?" completely missing the poing that this is a game not an a study into types of ethical theory.

 

Someone even asked in one of the director's Q&A vids mentioning my thread (i was pleased!) - His reply was basicallly he doesn't think they need to be equal and wont be balancing good/evil perm stat bonuses. So lookfoward in deadfire to bad dudes getting loads of perm ability bonuses while "good" guys get an extra 20 copper pieces from the quest giver for doing the "right thing"

 

Good guys should still get something, if not stat boosts, a good rep that helps them get by. Just like in the original Baldur's Gate. Being evil was pretty difficult there, if not downright impossible at times. Now that was a challenge. Being good required sacrifices, but people (NPCs) recognized your good rep and treated you differently.

 

 

There are certain followers who will leave if you make certain decisions.

 

The only one I know of is GM.

[house2fly]

I've played through Pillars as a lovely nice and selfless character and done just fine. There's no shortage of equipment, experience, cash and bonus talents however you play.

[Torm51]

 

 

Guess I'll have to make due.

 

I hope they'll balance it out more in PoE 2.

 

 

No they won't.. I started a thread about this: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91683-good-people-need-some-perm-ability-score-bonuses/ and basically half the people thought it was fine and that "...people who are good shouldn't do things for rewards" or asked questions about "what is good anyway?" completely missing the poing that this is a game not an a study into types of ethical theory.

 

Someone even asked in one of the director's Q&A vids mentioning my thread (i was pleased!) - His reply was basicallly he doesn't think they need to be equal and wont be balancing good/evil perm stat bonuses. So lookfoward in deadfire to bad dudes getting loads of perm ability bonuses while "good" guys get an extra 20 copper pieces from the quest giver for doing the "right thing"

 

Good guys should still get something, if not stat boosts, a good rep that helps them get by. Just like in the original Baldur's Gate. Being evil was pretty difficult there, if not downright impossible at times. Now that was a challenge. Being good required sacrifices, but people (NPCs) recognized your good rep and treated you differently.

 

 

There are certain followers who will leave if you make certain decisions.

 

The only one I know of is GM.

 

Spoilers! D: D: D: but ya

[Valmy]

Often I had a hard time even figuring out what the 'good' or 'bad' thing to do even was.

 

Granted sacrificing your people to Skaen was pretty obvious. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Valmy

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

PoE is quite ok when not Min/Maxing, to be honest. Unless you have maximalist tendencies. 

 

Good/bad shouldn't be a priority because it is dualistic and polarizing. Rather they should focus on fleshing out characters and bringing complex and morally challenging situations forward. You decide who to hurt and how to profit when the opportunity presents itself. I can explain a chaotic evil character as the epistemological height of freedom--somebody who is not interested in other people's opinions because they've come to realize that what they're doing for themselves matters the most to them. They can be quite relaxed in the mean time doing their own thing without stomping on every little kitten or looking for a way to put their hands in every pocket and triumph to show it off.  

 

If you're looking to squeeze every point out of the game, you're not good or evil. You're actually breaking the 4th wall. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Hulk'O'Saurus

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

You miss out on +1 might, +5% endurance, +1 attribute, and some minor benefit. You get 1 perception, some minor benefit, and don't lose a companion. I agree that there should be a balance between "good" and "evil" bonuses, but I don't think the disparity in PoE is huge.

 

A bigger issue in PoE is parity of Faction talents, with CK and HD being pretty good and D being comparatively worse.

[Valmy]

 

Good/bad shouldn't be a priority because it is dualistic and polarizing. Rather they should focus on fleshing out characters and bringing complex and morally challenging situations forward. You decide who to hurt and how to profit when the opportunity presents itself. I can explain a chaotic evil character as the epistemological height of freedom--somebody who is not interested in other people's opinions because they've come to realize that what they're doing for themselves matters the most to them. They can be quite relaxed in the mean time doing their own thing without stomping on every little kitten or looking for a way to put their hands in every pocket and triumph to show it off.  

 

 

Of course it is dualistic. It is based on Persian dualism. I always liked how D&D also brought in the Sumerian dualism of order vs. chaos. 

 

I don't get the epistemological proof here.You are playing an ego-centric character who does not really view others as having value so will stomp on whomever, or not, to get what they want. They are calculating and selfish. Is that freedom? Is caring about other people some kind of slavery? I don't get it.

 

Or wait...you are saying that what the game says is evil might not actually reflect the sort of evil you are trying to do? Ok I guess I get that.

 

But fortunately this is not a game where you have to worry about your good vs. evil score.

 

But it doesn't really matter, I guess. I completely agree with your assertion about fourth wall breaking.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Valmy

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

 

 

Good/bad shouldn't be a priority because it is dualistic and polarizing. Rather they should focus on fleshing out characters and bringing complex and morally challenging situations forward. You decide who to hurt and how to profit when the opportunity presents itself. I can explain a chaotic evil character as the epistemological height of freedom--somebody who is not interested in other people's opinions because they've come to realize that what they're doing for themselves matters the most to them. They can be quite relaxed in the mean time doing their own thing without stomping on every little kitten or looking for a way to put their hands in every pocket and triumph to show it off.  

 

 

Of course it is dualistic. It is based on Persian dualism. I always liked how D&D also brought in the Sumerian dualism of order vs. chaos. 

 

I don't get the epistemological proof here.You are playing an ego-centric character who does not really view others as having value so will stomp on whomever, or not, to get what they want. They are calculating and selfish. Is that freedom? Is caring about other people some kind of slavery? I don't get it.

 

Or wait...you are saying that what the game says is evil might not actually reflect the sort of evil you are trying to do? Ok I guess I get that.

 

But fortunately this is not a game where you have to worry about your good vs. evil score.

 

But it doesn't really matter, I guess. I completely agree with your assertion about fourth wall breaking.

 

 

While my own voice is nothing but a single voice in the crowd, I do think that dualism should not be emphasized on precisely because it is doctrinal and based on opinion, situation and philosophy. To be more precise, one needs a lot more dualistic opposites than emphasis on good/evil to craft a good(pun) world. Still, taking into consideration the classic d&d paradigm, there can be many flavours of evil--calculating and selfish hardly encompassing the possibilities. For example, when I was playing Planescape, my Nameless One became Chaotic Evil when he stomped through a locked gate, the guards of which were refusing him passage because they wanted a bribe. Their boss (Pharod) had sent the Nameless One on a task in a dangerous dungeon, and they were refusing to cooperate with him(TNO) when he came back to rest. His intent was never to hurt them, he literally wanted to pass through to rest, but they attacked him and got what was coming. 'Not concerned with social norms' stood out in my mind concerning the newly acquired badge of honour--Chaotic Evil, which made perfect sense to me, because after so many reincarnations one may become quite unsympathetic to society in general. There are things that need to be achieved and little patience to boot. It can look damn evil to a bystander but hardly the whole story. Thus becoming free in a way. It is only unfortunate that the game's description of Chaotic Evil is nothing like that...

 

It follows logically to say that only freedom fulfilling somebody should matter to them. In the eye of the beholder that may be good/evil. Sygg's words come to mind: 'It comes down to the power to hold versus the power to take.' As well as Jesus' 'Whosoever raises a sword, by the sword they will be ended.'(not word for word)

 

I suppose that ultimately good/evil is just too simplistic to me.  

Edited February 4, 2018 by Hulk'O'Saurus