Suggestion thread: Shields

[IndiraLightfoot]

Here are some interesting tidbits of researched info on what the limitations are wearing and fighting in plate armour (University of Leeds):

http://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/a6749/medieval-knights-on-a-treadmill-put-historical-myths-to-the-test/

[Madscientist]

Since this thread has turned into a discussion about historical correctness:

 

I have seen a video where one person in plate armor stands in the middle and 4 people with normal cloth stand around him, all equipped with long wooden sticks.

The 4 guys attacked the knight in the middle one after the other and the knight had to block the attack and strike back.

After some minutes the knight had to stop because of exhaustion.

 

I am not making any combat sports, but I do long distance running. So I know that the body produces lots of heat when you do sports.

Wearing too warm cloth while doing sports will lead to overheating. For me, even wearing long modern sportwear (instead of short one) may be too much and my performance goes down.

Any of those middle age armors have a much better heat insulation than modern sportswear. Their weight comes on top of that. So somebody who is fighting in a full plate armor must sweat like crazy and death of overheating or dehydration seems as likely as being killed by the enemy. It is beyond my understanding how anyone can fight for some time ( more than 15minutes ??? ) in a row.

 

OK, I am a light runner, not a mountain of muscles who is trained in combat.

I guess modern players of american football or ice hockey have the same problem.

 

At least PoE is "realistic" in a way that you can do everything while wearing armor but it increases recovery.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah, and still, in numerous CRPGs and MMORPGs, we get to around in bone-dry deserts with full plates, with impunity!

[MortyTheGobbo]

My general rule is that whenever you try to make a sweeping, authoritative statement about historical weapons... you probably shouldn't. There's a lot of variance across time and cultures, plus things we simply don't know. To say nothing of the perils of applying historical accuracy to a video RPG.

 

Anyhow, it does sound like the problem with shields is the same as in PoE. Passive defence just doesn't cut it if you have to sacrifice offensive power for it. Which you do by taking the accuracy penalty and giving up the increased damage of a two-handed weapon or dual-wielding. You can take more hits, but you will take more of those hits, because you can't kill enemies dead as quickly.

Edited January 17, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[JerekKruger]

If that is not enough for you then think what you want. 

 

I will   

 

Yeah sure. You have all the information bro... whatever I'm done arguing this. Lets get back topic.

 

It's not hard to find examples. Here are two: the English (and later French) armies during the Hundred Years War were full of well trained, non-noble soldiers; and various Italian city states were training the citizens to use crossbows and various polearms throughout the middle ages and beyond.

Edited January 17, 2018 by JerekKruger

[Wormerine]

Please, let’s go back to discussing shield in game, their role in game and implimentation. It has been very interesting thread so far. As a long time gamer and not much of real life melee fighter I am used to think of shields as nothing more than defencive boost.

 

Do you think the defensiveness of shields should be increased (better defence or chance to increase enemy recovery on miss by putting him “off balance”) or are you more inclined into making it a soft weapon? I like idea of shield being a “defensive” equipment, but the other approach does seem intriguing. however, with pen system I am not sure how effective would it be as “weak defensive weapon”.

[ShakotanSolari]

Do you think the defensiveness of shields should be increased (better defence or chance to increase enemy recovery on miss by putting him “off balance”) or are you more inclined into making it a soft weapon? I like idea of shield being a “defensive” equipment, but the other approach does seem intriguing. however, with pen system I am not sure how effective would it be as “weak defensive weapon”.

Personally I think the defense from shields is adequate, especially if you factor in the modals, which I think are much more interesting and worthwhile than most of the other weapon modals. As far as being a "weak defensive weapon", that's mostly how the bashing shields were in Pillars 1, and honestly I think I'd be okay with bashing returning as an enchantment if only it's damage scaled up with the quality of the shield.

[Soulmojo]

 

If that is not enough for you then think what you want. 

 

I will   

 

Yeah sure. You have all the information bro... whatever I'm done arguing this. Lets get back topic.

 

It's not hard to find examples. Here are two: the English (and later French) armies during the Hundred Years War were full of well trained, non-noble soldiers; and various Italian city states were training the citizens to use crossbows and various polearms throughout the middle ages and beyond.

 

 

Yeah do you read my comments? The hundred years war started in the 14th century and lasted that long because armies were so untrained and badly equipped neither side could take a decisive action precisely through that time is where military tactics and equipment went from no professional to professional. You are ignoring 700+ years from medieval times just to prove your point. Meh.

 

About the italian states armies. Those were mercenary armies called condottiere private owned and privately funded companies, who were employed by the various trading states like milan genoa and venice florence or tustcany because they didn't have the manpower to employ a large national army but was rich from mediterranian and silk road trade. Most of them were one maybe two regiments in size and werent nationally trained. A lot of standing mercenary companies of that time were siege units because the nobles and rulers werent trained in siege , and did not posessed the means. Btw I thought we were discussing national professional armies. Yes you could mention swiss pikemen or landsknechts , but those two companies were also sort of high medieval units.  

 

Also I wasnt stating at all that in the medieval ages there were no trained man at all, i was stating that in most of Europe and for about 800 years. If you look at the dates most of the professional soldiers came after the 14th century, but the medieval period started after the chaos of the fall of western roman empire. when  the saxons conquered england, when the vandals raided through europe, when the visigoths and suebi tribes settled in iberia, when the goths then lombards conquered italy where burgunds carved out a kingdom in france etc. These events started around the fifth-sixth century and where the classical era ended.

Many lore and experience were lost at that time and most of the rules even couldn't read how could they train their men when they couldn't understand the scrolls and books of the romans and greeks? You could ofc mention the franks, but as I told you most of europe were ruled by migrated tribals, and the franks could annex large parts without resistance. Also there were the Hunnic invasion where the huns basically razed half of the cities of the romans there were huge areas where the population fled or were killed. there were a 100 year long mini ice age at that period too which brought starvation and death. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Soulmojo]

Please, let’s go back to discussing shield in game, their role in game and implimentation. It has been very interesting thread so far. As a long time gamer and not much of real life melee fighter I am used to think of shields as nothing more than defencive boost.

 

Do you think the defensiveness of shields should be increased (better defence or chance to increase enemy recovery on miss by putting him “off balance”) or are you more inclined into making it a soft weapon? I like idea of shield being a “defensive” equipment, but the other approach does seem intriguing. however, with pen system I am not sure how effective would it be as “weak defensive weapon”.

 

Ok sorry guys. My mistake really. 

 

So shields

 

 

 

I did some thinking and I came up with an idea:

 

 

Shields need to be more different.

Using a shield normally changes nothing, but if you are profient with shields each shield gives a unique bonus.

- some shields keep the modals they have now

- some shields are used as bashing weapon that cause low damage but can cause another effect, like distracted

-some shields have a very aggressive mode: There is a spiked shield and if you activate the modal, it does damage like a normal weapon and causes bleed on hit, but it gives a defense penalty instead of a bonus. So by turning on/of the modal you can chose if you want to more defense or more offense

- some shields get a per encounter ability with a few charges, like one shied can interrupt enemies 3 times per encounter while another shield can confuse an enemy once per encounter. The effects, damage and amount of charges is different from shield to shield

- some shields simply get a bigger defense bonus if you are profient

- some shields may have shield bash by default, being profient adds damage or gives an additional effect

- There is an epic soulbound fire shield. (being profient increases damage and defense)

    + Initial state: the shield glows, you can bash with it and it gives you minor ice resistance

    + first upgrade: increases bash damage, additional fire damage on hit, medium ice resistance

    + final upgrade: every time ( or a % chance) you land a critical hit with the shield you create a fireball that causes fire damage to all enemies around you. You also get 3 per rest charges of the spells fireball and fireshield.

 

I want to have a devoted/paladin that is devoted to shields!

In one hand you have the soulbound fire shield, in the other hand the spike shield. Activate disciplined strikes plus eternal devotion and you are a moving fireball that burns and bleeds everything around him while having a good defense.

A char who specializes on using weapons might have bigger damage against the target in front of him, but you have better defense and you burn everyone around you.

 

Of course this means that you should be able to dual wield shields.

 

Edit: Changed bonusses of the final upgrade of the soulbound shield.

When reading this I like my idea so much that I wish I backed the "design a soulbound item" tier. ( . . . basking in my own ego     . . . )

 

Edited by Madscientist, Yesterday, 01:26 AM.

 

 

You have to think from the creators perspective there has to be a general rule thumb which applies to all shield. That is either you can attack or not. Either you make each capable of attack and build the bonuses around the fact that shields can attack and defend.

If you don't then you get what you got in PoE1 where the shield enchants were all defensive and they inserted a bash effect which made the shield function as a weapon but couldn't be offensively enchanted and it became more bad as the game progressed.

 

I love your idea of certain shields posessing different effects on a succesfull attack It would give uniquie flavour to each different shield you can find and every shield could be inserted to every build available. But then all shield have to be capable of attack and damage at least as much as a light weapon. And the upgrade path must also consist offensive bonuses too so they remain competitive till the end.

 

Personally I think the defense from shields is adequate, especially if you factor in the modals, which I think are much more interesting and worthwhile than most of the other weapon modals. As far as being a "weak defensive weapon", that's mostly how the bashing shields were in Pillars 1, and honestly I think I'd be okay with bashing returning as an enchantment if only it's damage scaled up with the quality of the shield.

 

 

This. I think too that the defensive side shields are ok, especially because if you can gear with shields that the enemy couldn't hit you at all, then suddenly no one would use armor and ever build would employ shields. Rationally that would be the bottom line.

If shields would have uniquie offensive enchants - elemental damage, daze, stagger, prone etc. and the damage, accuracy would scale with upgrade too they would remain competitive.

I would fit into the enchanting plans of the devs too. I remember somewhere Josh or the devs said that they want the player to upgrade the uniquie stat of each item  rather that giving general upgrades, so each item would look more different as the game progresses not more the same. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Madscientist]

OK, I make a simplified version of my suggestions from above:

 

- basic shields and their modals stay as they are

- For shields with bashing, damage should scale with item quality. (BTW, should large shields do more damage than small ones?)

- It would be nice if you could have more enchantments for shields, not just quality. I have read that weapon enchantment of PoE2 is more like upgrading the properties the item already has, not giving it whatever standart bonusses you like. The same thing would be nice for shields.

- It would be nice if at least some of the bashing shields have an extra effect, like status effects on hit or lashes. It could be a rare artifact or you can get it via enchanting.

 

I still like my idea for the souldbound shield.

Looks like I have to use it together with a weapon if something similar exists in the game.

[Kaylon]

When quality enchanted the damage/accuracy of the shield should be increased too, not just defense. I also think that bashing should be a modal for all shields, with a little flavor depending on their type (chance to stagger,interrupt, lower defenses, etc...)

[JFutral]

I didn't see the examples from history of shields necessarily about historical accuracy. I saw them more about expanding our ideas of what shields could be. I found it interesting in the first video the demonstrator started using the term "weapon" for the shield, that the shield is as much an offensive device as a defensive device. Which makes sense. When one is fighting for their life, one uses everything at their disposal. Why not? Even swords are used defensively.

 

Joe

[Soulmojo]

OK, I make a simplified version of my suggestions from above:

 

- basic shields and their modals stay as they are

- For shields with bashing, damage should scale with item quality. (BTW, should large shields do more damage than small ones?)

- It would be nice if you could have more enchantments for shields, not just quality. I have read that weapon enchantment of PoE2 is more like upgrading the properties the item already has, not giving it whatever standart bonusses you like. The same thing would be nice for shields.

- It would be nice if at least some of the bashing shields have an extra effect, like status effects on hit or lashes. It could be a rare artifact or you can get it via enchanting.

 

I still like my idea for the souldbound shield.

Looks like I have to use it together with a weapon if something similar exists in the game.

 

The soulbound shield idea is good. Though don't forget that fireball is a friendly fire spell, so a fire resist would be more appropriate.

I really think there should be many more shield like that. 

 

I don't think large shields should do more damage than lets say a medium shield. yes the area is larger but I'm not seeing how it could do more damage than a smaller version. 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Soulmojo

[gGeorg]

I like the idea of considering shield as a weapon. Make it work like a hatchet sounds good. Just give it more deflection and less damage.

 

But no pistol/shield plz, that is so weird

I am sorry dude, but I am going to crush your happy world filled with rainbows and unicorns.

 

One handed axe is good for aggressive attacks, but definitely not defense. 

Defensive weapon is light for response (most important parameter), balanced for control (hatchet  with the weight at the one side does not fit at all), able to make straight blocks, have hand guard. e.g. short blade type weapons, one handed club type weapon ( tonfa ), two handed staffs of a size the man.

 

Grab a wood axe try to block a piece wood flying at you. You will see. :D You most probably get your wrist hurt yourself because of trying make a quick movement with heavy unbalanced hatchet.... . Its higher chance you might ride a unicorn than make a successful defense by hatchet.

 

Pistol and Shield was actually used in the real world. Late European knights armed with shield and war hammer (sword is useless when opponent is covered in armor) used as a side weapon a pistol. However, these were one shot (or two barrels at max) weapons. Loading few minutes so, definitely no loading in the middle of a combat.  In the same time period, Japanese Ashigaru used Matchlocks guns (which is the game arquebus) and the tower shield.

I wish the PoE firearms has at least far longer loading times to somehow response reality.

 

 

• Interesting fact:

Viking style fighting with a shield, Vikings used shield for block and hold opponent's weapon, open the guard then make own attack, dis-balance opponent (do not misinterpret with bashing, rather make opponent off the rhythm). Also, get noticed Viking sword minimum handguard becouse is not usually used for defense. Try to block another blade with Viking sword, it slips by the your blade and cut your hand off.  Similar usage was of Roman (Scutum) shield. Romans drill was push opponents weapon away and stab to the under belly. If weapon is not pushed away then do not stab. Check the size of Roman shield, its tower shield in game terms, this shield technique definitely NOT lower your chance to hit. It does exact opposite! Surprisingly, roman swords handguard is nearly non, because ... surprisingly it was not usually used to block. ) 

 

• In game terms, 

shield makes your Accuracy rise up, same as recovery cose you carefully use your shield to open opponent first then and only then attack. Also the defense of your weapon is not so important. For the game purpose, shield user halved defense value of the weapon, maybe cut it at all (need to test it).

You see, the combat (active) role of a shield is the preparation of opponent for the attack. Not the actual attack. Actual attack comes by the main weapon. Therefore some mindless fast hacking is not the case. The "Viking" or "Roman" shield user should receive up deflection and accuracy but lower time of attacks. Then, in case of good combat performance FOLLOW UP action comes.

Any Follow up actions should be accessible for proficient users. Shield is correctly set as a weapon proficiency.

 

Shield actions could be:

Shield could add some bonus to follow up attacks in case of successful defense.

Shield could add a guaranteed hit to follow up attacks in case of extraordinary defense.

Shied could add an advanced follow up attacks (like bash, knock) in case of successful critical main weapon attack.

Regardless of Captain America movie, shield is defensive tool. Shield is support for the weapon, support for weapon techniques. Shield is not stand alone bashing or throwing weapon.

Edited January 23, 2018 by gGeorg

[Madscientist]

@gGeorg:

- PoE is a fantasy game, not a historical simulation

- Haches had the bonus for game balance reasons. Each weapon type has a special bonus. Some of these bonusses make as much or as little sense as the hatchet bonus, but I can live with that. Games will always have a certain level of abstraction.

- The romans were fighting in formation. Lots of soldiers with the same equipment moved forward as a wall of shields and swords or spears. Their effectiveness came from constant drill to fight as a team with standartized equipment.

In PoE2 you have up to 5 characters and not all of them will have a shield. To compare this with the roman army makes no sense. I do not know much about vikings.

Shields have a acc penalty because of game balance. You have to chose if you want more defense or offense.

[gGeorg]

@gGeorg:

- PoE is a fantasy game, not a historical simulation

- Haches had the bonus for game balance reasons. Each weapon type has a special bonus. Some of these bonusses make as much or as little sense as the hatchet bonus, but I can live with that. Games will always have a certain level of abstraction.

- The romans were fighting in formation. Lots of soldiers with the same equipment moved forward as a wall of shields and swords or spears. Their effectiveness came from constant drill to fight as a team with standartized equipment.

In PoE2 you have up to 5 characters and not all of them will have a shield. To compare this with the roman army makes no sense. I do not know much about vikings.

Shields have a acc penalty because of game balance. You have to chose if you want more defense or offense.

Argument that its fantasy game is good to justify anything. Like polearms has no penalty in close quarter combat.... .

Hatches had the bonus for a reason to have some bonus greate argument. Then Sabre should be made a defensive weapon of choice rather than hatchet. that makes sense.

In formation or not, technigue of shield used as preparation for attack works regardless.

 

Shield has acc penalty (eg lower DPS) becouse of blance yes. Better would be, get lower DPS by lowering number of attacks, which comply reality better.

Edited January 23, 2018 by gGeorg

[divjak]

Amount of armor changes everything i terms how you use weapons(shields are weapons as well)

 

this is how bucklers work when you use no or light armor

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC_g750Ziss

 

 

and in heavy armor, it becomes more like BoN posted videos from before 

 

 

so basically combat style depends more on armor than anything, fighting with a buckler in light armor is more similar to fighting with only a sword in light armor, then it is to fighting in buckler in heavy metal armor.  Good armor makes you almost invulnerable, only limitation is price and it has to be tailor-made for each individual.

Fighting in heavy  armor came down to wrestling the guy on the floor, after few hits from mace, and then opening visor and stabbing with dagger  to the face 

Edited January 24, 2018 by divjak

[divjak]

this is a video that shows all kinds of different setups in a dueling scenario with you having gambeson at most, also not heaving shield, or paired weapon in another hand, does not give you more accuracy or more options, its always better to have either something in your off hand or 2 handed weapon. People(civilians) used a single handed weapon because it is easier to carry in everyday life, then it is to lumping around with a shield or 2-hander. It was common with archers to carry a single weapon as a backup.

 

Dual wielding was  either done with 2 short weapons,  ar a sword+dagger, because having 2 long weapons limits you, they clash with each other, limiting your attack, while providing not much for defense    

Edited January 24, 2018 by divjak

[SaruNi]

Turns out shields were---and still are---used with pistols. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield#Modern_history

 

[divjak]

Turns out shields were---and still are---used with pistols. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield#Modern_history

 

in past, however, tower shields were used by Romans, and later on by crossbowmen

in game modal makes sense, but you cant use it with crossbows 

 

realistically, it should be possible to use with crossbows, when modal is not on, shield is on the back and provides no defense, and when you turn it on, you put it in front, and can't move, so using xbows and rifles should be possible,  and with no nonsense of reducing the accuracy   

Edited January 24, 2018 by divjak

[divjak]

actually, all shields should be able to be used with 2 handed weapons, its  just you hold them on a back, and let's say instead of pure deflection bonus, you get a bonus against flanking or disengagement attacks 

[Madscientist]

 

Turns out shields were---and still are---used with pistols. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield#Modern_history

 

in past, however, tower shields were used by Romans, and later on by crossbowmen

in game modal makes sense, but you cant use it with crossbows 

 

realistically, it should be possible to use with crossbows, when modal is not on, shield is on the back and provides no defense, and when you turn it on, you put it in front, and can't move, so using xbows and rifles should be possible,  and with no nonsense of reducing the accuracy   

 

 

I like this.

There are only two problems with game balancing:

- When ranged weapons can be used with the tower shield modal, everybody with ranged weapons will carry one. Usually you do not move while shooting anyway and you can turn on the modal on and off any time.

- Regarding your next post, if shields also give a bonus while using 2h weapons, everybody will use a shield and it will be less attractive to use 1h+shield.

- Maybe this can be handeled when shields give a recovery penalty like armor instead of an acc penalty. Large shields make you slower than small ones. Using 1h+shield lowers this penalty a lot and the talent removes it completely, together with the small defense bonus it gives now.

 

The problem with history ( opposed to game mechanics) is, that combat was not balanced. Usually some options were much better than others and most fighters used similar equipment. Most people used a shield ( including ranged units like those crossbow guys) because unlike game characters who need to have 1HP to keep on fighting, real people will get injured when they are hit by a weapon. Even when you survive a hit it will hinder you and you might die later from it because of infections. So not getting hit has a very high priority for most people.

That means a game will either be unrealistic or unbalanced.

OK, There are games which are both, unrealistic AND unbalanced

 

PS:

Regarding the different use of shields I have some nice examples from other games:

- In "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" you can find a large shield. The adult Link uses it normally to fight with weapon and shield. Link as a Kid wears it on his back and he can take cover under it to protect himself from things falling from above.

- In Okami you can have shields ( I think those things are mirrors, but I am not sure) as weapon. If you equip them as primary weapon you use them to bash enemies. If you equip them as secondary weapon you can use them to block attacks. (Ok, your character is a wolf and I have no idea how a wolf can carry weapons and a large inventory at all. But the wolf is also a god and the game is great, so who cares )

[Wormerine]

actually, all shields should be able to be used with 2 handed weapons, its  just you hold them on a back, and let's say instead of pure deflection bonus, you get a bonus against flanking or disengagement attacks 

I like all the ideas, but they wouldn't make sense with current setup. You have two hands. You can put two items in each hand, or put one weapon in two hands. That's it.

 

If we were to impliment your ideas what shield be treated as? Trinket? cloak? Would me make it equippable on multiple slots? Would we create seperate shield slot? 

 

Yeah, I agree shields had much wider implimentation than melee, but I don't think it would work that well with current system.

[Gromnir]

@gGeorg:

- PoE is a fantasy game, not a historical simulation

- Haches had the bonus for game balance reasons. Each weapon type has a special bonus. Some of these bonusses make as much or as little sense as the hatchet bonus, but I can live with that. Games will always have a certain level of abstraction.

- The romans were fighting in formation. Lots of soldiers with the same equipment moved forward as a wall of shields and swords or spears. Their effectiveness came from constant drill to fight as a team with standartized equipment.

In PoE2 you have up to 5 characters and not all of them will have a shield. To compare this with the roman army makes no sense. I do not know much about vikings.

Shields have a acc penalty because of game balance. You have to chose if you want more defense or offense.

 

finally.  were wondering when somebody were gonna get reasonable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[DigitalCrack]

If I was going to change anything I would prob just make the small shield proficiency a bash modal. Otherwise not sure there is a good way to balance all shields getting bash.