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Should healing stay in Resolve, or revert back to Strength?


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#1
Jojobobo

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So I wanted to make a thread to specifically target a singular issue, rather than the more wide-ranging debate on Strength, Resolve and Might. What I wanted to see opinions on (more for my own curiosity, as I don't have beta access) is, if we take the division of physical damage in Strength and spell damage in Resolve as set in stone, should healing still belong in Resolve?

 

Broadly speaking, I think how Might and Resolve played in PoE 1 was:

 

1) For offensive DPS builds, Might allowed for a degree of self-sustainability as it provided healing.

2) Tanks focussed on high defences, and so when you paired high defences to a middling Might for healing they would also be self-sustaining.

 

In PoE 2 from an outsider perspective, what it seems like from the raw mechanical changes to the stats:

 

1) Tanks now benefit more, as if you pump Res you get healing on top of Deflection.

2) Casters benefit way more, getting Damage, Deflection and healing.

3) Physical attackers lost any kind of defensive benefit, no longer being self-sustaining to any degree if they dump Res, which is a stat that is otherwise useless to them (while casters can dump Strength with zero cost, apart from a loss of Fortitude).

 

I guess I liked in PoE 1 that you can make any class self-sufficient to a degree without the need for a Cleric for support and healing, and you could do so this while making them maximally damaging - with both DPS and damage. It seems like in PoE 2, this is no longer the case, high damage + DPS melee attackers (dumping Resolve) will need some sort of cleric support for survival - or they will have to move away from maximal damage or DPS to have some Resolve and stay alive without a cleric. Casters on the other hand can go for maximal offences without any concern.

 

So I guess there's a couple of questions here:

 

1) Do you feel like I've accurately represented the current situation, or do you think I've exaggerated the problem, or not factored in larger interplay with healing? As mentioned, I don't have beta access, so I'd not thoroughly well versed in all the ins and outs of PoE 2.

2) With these factors considered, do you think healing should revert back to Strength, or are you happy with the current system?

 

There's been a lot of debate about how much the fanbase should be making these threads (particularly when they're made by people without Beta access, aka me), and how much they are/aren't interfering with the devs' design processes.

 

I made this thread mainly out of my own curiosity (it's a question I'd like to see discussion on), but in terms of it impacting on the devs' decision making why don't we approach this topic as more or less operating as a independent focus group for the devs, which they can either use the feedback from or leave at the wayside at their own discretion? If the devs' have an overarching vision for attributes that they think will work in the long term, then by all means they should stick with that - I would never suggest otherwise.

 

If we're taking the focus group approach, I'd like to see as objective and logical arguments as possible on the mechanistic ramifications of both approaches, so I'd massively prefer it if people check all their "muscle wizards suxxed" arguments at the door. This isn't about those subjective arguments, it's about us trying to rationalise which approach we think has the potential to make a more mechanically fluent game.

 

Have fun!


Edited by Jojobobo, 11 January 2018 - 12:38 AM.

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#2
daven

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I think they should just get the rights to 2nd Edition DnD and put that in.



#3
Tigranes

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I think they should just get the rights to 2nd Edition DnD and put that in.

 

I like having different systems to play alongside my AD&D CRPGs. I just want the system to be good.


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#4
Ninjamestari

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Like I've said before, one has to make sure the concepts make sense before moving onto the mechanical side of things. If they really changed might to strength just for mechanical reasons, they did it for the wrong reasons and I'm not surprised if it causes problems. The problem with their thinking is the same it is with your thinking: you can't just make singular changes like that to tweak a badly designed system, you need to redesign it from the ground up if you're changing the concepts you work with.



#5
Jojobobo

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The problem with their thinking is the same it is with your thinking: you can't just make singular changes like that to tweak a badly designed system, you need to redesign it from the ground up if you're changing the concepts you work with.

I'm not so sure, the scientific method is to change a single variable and see its results. While games are complicated and there is a lot of interplay as you say, there's also nothing particularly wrong with the single variable at a time approach either.

 

What I'm hoping is that when the beta wraps the devs will test a lot of other possibilities in house, and try to find a slightly better fit. I guess I want minimal downtime between the game's release and them balancing it appropriately (3 months or so, something like that) - they were going at it with PoE 1 for ages.


Edited by Jojobobo, 11 January 2018 - 12:23 PM.


#6
Tigranes

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Like I've said before, one has to make sure the concepts make sense before moving onto the mechanical side of things. If they really changed might to strength just for mechanical reasons, they did it for the wrong reasons and I'm not surprised if it causes problems. The problem with their thinking is the same it is with your thinking: you can't just make singular changes like that to tweak a badly designed system, you need to redesign it from the ground up if you're changing the concepts you work with.

 

Honestly, when it comes to attributes, I'd say mechanical first and then dress it up in suitable conceptual so it makes sense. In 5th ed D&D, for example, the attributes make some degree of conceptual sense for roleplaying, but that comes from the mechanical system of having the attribs feed directly into skill proficiencies. So you're really thinking about that mechanical connection of, say, Performance with Charisma.


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#7
MountainTiger

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Is there a text summary of the current attributes somewhere for those of us not in the beta?

 

And man, I love the BG series as much as the next guy, but I'll never understand the level of 2e nostalgia required to want more games to use it.



#8
Ninjamestari

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I'm not so sure, the scientific method is to change a single variable and see its results. While games are complicated and there is a lot of interplay as you say, there's also nothing particularly wrong with the single variable at a time approach either.

 

What I'm hoping is that when the beta wraps the devs will test a lot of other possibilities in house, and try to find a slightly better fit. I guess I want minimal downtime between the game's release and them balancing it appropriately (3 months or so, something like that) - they were going at it with PoE 1 for ages.

 

The scientific method is great for breaking things and understanding them, not so much for building things. There is a whole separate methodology for designing stuff, and the implications of simple changes like the one that has been made are quite easy to anticipate to a certain degree.

 

EDIT: what I'm saying is, games are essentially just a bunch of logic and math, you don't really have to experiment in order to know how a design will work when you've done everything from the ground up. If you begin to change stuff on the fly however, then you'll potentially be in the dark. The more so the further you're in the development.

 

Honestly, when it comes to attributes, I'd say mechanical first and then dress it up in suitable conceptual so it makes sense. In 5th ed D&D, for example, the attributes make some degree of conceptual sense for roleplaying, but that comes from the mechanical system of having the attribs feed directly into skill proficiencies. So you're really thinking about that mechanical connection of, say, Performance with Charisma.

 

Not so I think, there's so much wiggle-room with the mechanical side of things that it is easier to design the concepts first, with the mechanical side in mind obviously. It's a great starting point because it lets you form up a list of features the game needs and the kinds of designs needed for individual scripts, spells and such. It's a basis that will then help guide the rest of the design process. The thing is, the concepts of the stats are important in creating the identity of your character, that's why you have stuff like Strength and Constitution and not just "Damage" and "Hitpoints", and why you want the Strength of the character to manifest itself in more ways than just increasing damage. The strong guy in the party carries most of the loot for example, the nimble guy does the nimble stuff like sneaking, scouting and stuff. It's there so that when you create a character with high strength, there really is a reinforced fantasy of playing a strong character to back it up. Or a weak character for that matter if you choose to have low Strength. It's better to have the concepts guide the mechanics than the other way around, you'll just get a more powerful fantasy that way.


Edited by Ninjamestari, 11 January 2018 - 12:57 PM.


#9
Jojobobo

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I'm not so sure, the scientific method is to change a single variable and see its results. While games are complicated and there is a lot of interplay as you say, there's also nothing particularly wrong with the single variable at a time approach either.

 

What I'm hoping is that when the beta wraps the devs will test a lot of other possibilities in house, and try to find a slightly better fit. I guess I want minimal downtime between the game's release and them balancing it appropriately (3 months or so, something like that) - they were going at it with PoE 1 for ages.

 

The scientific method is great for breaking things and understanding them, not so much for building things. There is a whole separate methodology for designing stuff, and the implications of simple changes like the one that has been made are quite easy to anticipate to a certain degree.

 

EDIT: what I'm saying is, games are essentially just a bunch of logic and math, you don't really have to experiment in order to know how a design will work when you've done everything from the ground up. If you begin to change stuff on the fly however, then you'll potentially be in the dark. The more so the further you're in the development.

Fair enough, and I'm sure you're correct in that the methodologies will be different. Still that doesn't necessary mean there's no merit in looking over a particular element, if all angles get discussed then it has the potential to serve as a frame of reference if the devs were looking to reconsider some part of their overall mechanistic picture.



#10
illathid

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The entire strength experiment has been a failure. Time to bring back might with all of its previous effects.


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#11
Ninjamestari

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The entire strength experiment has been a failure. Time to bring back might with all of its previous effects.

 

It's the hated Muscle Wizard!  I will see you destroyed, you hear me, DESTROYED!


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#12
Jojobobo

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The entire strength experiment has been a failure. Time to bring back might with all of its previous effects.

I think my main problem with all of this is it seems like trading one set of arbitrary constraints for another - and I'm not entirely sure of the intention. I don't mind the experiment per se, but to me it seems like will definitely entirely and radically alter the way people make characters from PoE 1. As the new set of constraints seems more or less as arbitrary as those set in PoE 1, I just can't get my head around it.

 

As I said, as a non-beta player I want to get my head around it, I was hoping someone could sate my curiosity with their beta experience. Anyone?



#13
dunehunter

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The entire strength experiment has been a failure. Time to bring back might with all of its previous effects.


It's the hated Muscle Wizard! I will see you destroyed, you hear me, DESTROYED!

Lol, what’s going on here :)
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#14
dunehunter

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The entire strength experiment has been a failure. Time to bring back might with all of its previous effects.

I think my main problem with all of this is it seems like trading one set of arbitrary constraints for another - and I'm not entirely sure of the intention. I don't mind the experiment per se, but to me it seems like will definitely entirely and radically alter the way people make characters from PoE 1. As the new set of constraints seems more or less as arbitrary as those set in PoE 1, I just can't get my head around it.

As I said, as a non-beta player I want to get my head around it, I was hoping someone could sate my curiosity with their beta experience. Anyone?

 

I might not be able to give u the complete answer. But from my experience.

For pure tank, a tank + healer or tank + caster is more doable now.

For a damage dealer, it hurt a bit because if u dump Res, Second wind will be pretty weak. You will need a support or put some point into Res.

For a hybrid, the change makes Cipher, Druid weaker for sure, because u need to split attribution between Str and Res now.

For a pure caster, u either use summon weapon and max Str, or max Res and cast spells only. So a Max Res caster has much better defense now, but after he used all spells, he is pretty useless. So in the early game, a max Res wizard can only cast 2 or 3 offensive spell and go idle because he has nothing else to do.

That’s my feeling in current beta.


Edited by dunehunter, 11 January 2018 - 10:33 PM.

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#15
KDubya

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The entire strength experiment has been a failure. Time to bring back might with all of its previous effects.

 

It's the hated Muscle Wizard!  I will see you destroyed, you hear me, DESTROYED!

 

 

This battle was fought and won by Might back in the beta of PoE. Time to move on and accept defeat.

 

Might being 'soul power' which fueled all the damage for all the characters was a nice refreshing change from the standard bog of strength for melee, and some other stat for magic. It gave PoE a distinct identity from every other RPG. Add in the unique Cipher using focus, Monks with wounds and Chanters building phrases over time and you had a new game system that matched a new renaissance themed game world.

 

Personally I think they should have dropped Wizards, Priests and Druids from the entire game and just had all spell casting be from focus fueled Ciphers or Chanters. It'd been much more unique and made for a better game. PoE was plagued with the overpoweredness of Vancian casters late game and now DeadFire is plagued with the uselessness of Vancian casters who are now not Vancian exactly. 


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#16
Jojobobo

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The entire strength experiment has been a failure. Time to bring back might with all of its previous effects.

I think my main problem with all of this is it seems like trading one set of arbitrary constraints for another - and I'm not entirely sure of the intention. I don't mind the experiment per se, but to me it seems like will definitely entirely and radically alter the way people make characters from PoE 1. As the new set of constraints seems more or less as arbitrary as those set in PoE 1, I just can't get my head around it.

As I said, as a non-beta player I want to get my head around it, I was hoping someone could sate my curiosity with their beta experience. Anyone?

 

I might not be able to give u the complete answer. But from my experience.

For pure tank, a tank + healer or tank + caster is more doable now.

For a damage dealer, it hurt a bit because if u dump Res, Second wind will be pretty weak. You will need a support or put some point into Res.

For a hybrid, the change makes Cipher, Druid weaker for sure, because u need to split attribution between Str and Res now.

For a pure caster, u either use summon weapon and max Str, or max Res and cast spells only. So a Max Res caster has much better defense now, but after he used all spells, he is pretty useless. So in the early game, a max Res wizard can only cast 2 or 3 offensive spell and go idle because he has nothing else to do.

That’s my feeling in current beta.

It sounds like from what you've said my assumptions about the changes are on point (though I guess other people might feel the changes are different).

 

I think my biggest issue with these changes in general is that it makes certain classes obligate tanks to a much greater extent than PoE 1 (all pure casters are going to be slapping on a shield most likely, etc.), whereas in PoE 1 there was a lot more flexibility in choices (any class could be made tanky, and any class could also focus on DPS). I personally enjoyed the ability to do whatever I wanted with a certain class, rather than it leaning heavily into a specific build. That's the biggest weakness of the new system in my eyes, and shifting healing back into Strength would rectify that at least to an extent (and stop Strength being considered so thoroughly pointless to some classes).


Edited by Jojobobo, 11 January 2018 - 11:31 PM.


#17
Ninjamestari

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Might being 'soul power' which fueled all the damage for all the characters was a retarded change from the traditional and down-to-earth strength for melee, and some other better fitting stat for magic. It gave PoE a distinct hipster-identity that negatively distinguished it from every other serious RPG. 

 

You seem to have written that wrong, I fixed it for you.



#18
JerekKruger

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I'd prefer Might to revert to its Pillars form and Resolve to be buffed in some other way, but having Healing moved to Resolve whilst Might retains Damage wouldn't bother me that much. It makes Resolve the more defensive stat, and fits well with tanky Fighters and Paladins benefiting for their healing abilities whilst not messing up the hybrid damage dealers. It's also unlikely to require people to significantly change the attributes of imported characters, which is my biggest problem with the change.


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#19
KDubya

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Might being 'soul power' which fueled all the damage for all the characters was a retarded change from the traditional and down-to-earth strength for melee, and some other better fitting stat for magic. It gave PoE a distinct hipster-identity that negatively distinguished it from every other serious RPG. 

 

You seem to have written that wrong, I fixed it for you.

 

 

You seem to have some sort of hipster fetish :)

 

Did some hipster take your girlfriend or kick your dog or something?

 

In PoE a caster did not need to have a high Might to be good, plenty of great builds concentrated on Perception and Intellect for accurate long lasting afflictions. Now in DeadFire a caster is actively encouraged to dump strength as it does nothing for them besides auto attacks which should never be used as you'll have so many per encounter spells from mid level on that you'll never run out. 

 

Now its back to the standard fare casters=weak. Hurray for being original :) 


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#20
Ninjamestari

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Although I really don't want to see Might raise its ugly head ever again, if it was to happen, I really don't understand why resolve didn't contain a bonus for passive abilities such as auras in the first place. Just have resolve grant +4% or so per point over 10 to every single passive ability, and have Might only govern non-passives. That would mean paladin auras and the Fighter's constant recovery would be governed by Resolve, while Priests' healing spells would be governed by Might. I always found it frustrating that I couldn't build a character that focuses on making those passive paladin abilities more powerful, and I think Resolve would be the perfect stat for that purpose.






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