A rework for wizard subclasses bonus

[dunehunter]

Currently wizard subclasses are pretty lame except Evokers because the bonus you get from these subclass is a flat bonus that doesn't scale in later game. So I'm thinking of a rework on these bonus to make them have a better performance in both early game and late game.

 

Conjurer - Remove the useless Conjure Familiar spell. Instead, now Conjuration spell cast time is halved.

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Comment:  This change can make Conjurers a specialist in minion summon and weapon summon, they are more professional in conjuring magical things than normal wizard.

 

Enchanter - Keep the Free Action bonus, also add a haste bonus that gives enchanter an action speed boost that lasts 10 second at the beginning of combat.

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Comment:  Currently Enchanter's bonus is a defensive bonus that isn't necessarily triggered every combat, so if they are not affected by Dex affliction, this bonus equals to nothing, so I added an offensive bonus to match their school.

 

Evoker - no changes needed.

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Comment:  The current Evoker bonus feels pretty good to me, and it will remain useful during all levels.

 

Illusionist - Change the Reflective Mirror into that every time when an Illusionist gets hit, there is a chance to trigger a free Wizard's Double.

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Comment:  The current bonus of Illusionist is OK for early game, because it is a flat bonus as it gives u a free lvl 3 spell. But for later game this bonus feels lame, so I make it a constant defense passive to keep it useful. Specially we have a similar wizard build in PoE 1 that focus on Wizard Double and high defenses. So this bonus sounds a good idea to me.

 

Transmuter - turn into Ogre form into a modal similar to Druid spiritual shift, and add a fear aura to the ogre.

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Comment:  The 6 sec of the spell is horrible, so why not turn it into a modal same as the spiritual shift? And fear aura matches the spell name

 

Any idea on this?

Edited January 9, 2018 by dunehunter

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think all Wizards are pretty lame because of the long cast time. I'd make the Wizards go the way of Paladins and Priests and make specialization required, take out the penalties and power level boost because penalties are disproportionately bad, power level boost seems to mostly benefit Evokers, and I've always thought school restriction was dumb since D&D. As for benefits, I'd make it passive stuff like that meshes well with the types of spells being thrown. Evocation does this well, but think more duration for conjuration spells, improved aflictions/buffs, increased accuracy, etc.

Edited January 10, 2018 by KaineParker

[dunehunter]

I think all Wizards are pretty lame because of the long cast time. I'd make the Wizards go the way of Paladins and Priests and make specialization required, take out the penalties and power level boost because penalties are disproportionately bad, power level boost seems to mostly benefit Evokers, and I've always thought school restriction was dumb since D&D. As for benefits, I'd make it passive stuff like that meshes well with the types of spells being thrown. Evocation does this well, but think more duration for conjuration spells, improved aflictions/buffs, increased accuracy, etc.

 

Long cast time is a problem of spells, I'm only talking about the subclass passive bonus here. And I think all wizard subclasses except Evoker is pretty lame.

 

A subclass should have either heavy penalty/heavy bonus or light penalty/light bonus. Wizard subclasses restrict themselves from using spells of two schools, and recovery penalty. Imo this penalty is pretty huge, but the bonus for them except Evoker is minor.

 

Power level affects evocation spells nicely, but it is less effective on other school spells.

 

The Enchanter/Illusionist bonus is either too situational or too flat. Same as Conjurer's familiar, it is just horrible to lose two school to get a useless familiar.

 

And for Transmuter, if I remember correctly they lose access to Enchantment spells. A transmuter who turns into an Ogre and a normal wizard who buff himself with a lot inspiration and summon magic weapon, which do you think is better in melee? I'd voted for a normal wizard. 

 

I don't argue that a Enchanter, an Illusionist or a Transmuter will perform nicely on level 1, but the higher level you becomes, the worse they becomes and the penalty to lose 2 spell school becomes so obvious.

Edited January 10, 2018 by dunehunter

[mrmonocle]

school restrictions are lame indeed, the whole penalty driven approach is lame, don't make the player make a hard choice, give us a boon by taking a subclass, don't penaltize! Why not leave bonuses only and eliminate generic wizard completely?

Edited January 10, 2018 by mrmonocle

[theBalthazar]

I came to the same conclusion: for now, if I ever had to take a wizard and the cast time problem was set, I would take a normal wizard, without subclass ...

[Boeroer]

Mee too. The spell restrictions exclude you from too many useful spells. The subclass bonuses don't balance this out by any means. It also reduces your overall spell choice and as a single class wizard you end up taking spells you don't really want or need.

[JFutral]

I don't mind the penalties for choosing a spell school having been exposed to something similar in BG. What I mind is the new grimoire structure that I can't seem to affect. It is difficult to keep up with spells I choose on level up and which grimoires have spells I want to and can use. I still fall into the PoE habit of picking one grimoire that works well enough and going with that the whole play through. Maybe that's just me. I'm lazy that way.

 

I'm not totally clear on what problem this new grimoire structure is supposed to solve.

 

But I do agree that the balance between benefits and penalties is way out of whack. Let me at least get an extra cast out of my chosen school of spells. This whole two casts per level is kind of wanky.

 

I also agree, right now there are only two wizards worth the time, standard and evoker.

 

Joe

[Boeroer]

Yes, something like this. Or shorter casting time of your school or whatever. Or +3 power level or...

 

Something substantial. Not a 6-sec transformation that will leave you with -4 INT or a familiar that is of little use.

[deneweth]

I was really hoping they would do something with wizards in deadfire.  Unfortunately the current implementation of one spell per level up and no class abilities i.e. grimoire slam and arcane assault leaves much to be desired.  Having X casts per combat instead of per day is very nice, but it really calls for spells that are useful in more situations.

 

It seems like a very common trend in these forum topics, that as this franchise evolves it is outgrowing it's infinity engine and 2nd edition roots.  I'm sorry but no one is going to pick "chilling grasp" sunless touch.  It's just a bad spell.  It's neat that it's in the game and you might find it in a grimoire, but this isn't 2nd edition and those 2nd edition spells don't translate to a system where you get 2 spells of each level.  Especially for first and second level spells, if I'm not considering casting it every combat then I don't want it.  I have to balance defensive, debuffs, control, and direct damage spells.  I have to juggle spells that target enemy will, reflex, fortitude and possibly deflection.

 

I really wish they'd scrap spell schools or at least school specialists in favor of arcane archer or eldrich knight style of sub-classes.  I guess you can create those with dual class, but dual class seems very meh at the moment also.  I would much rather have a specialized subclass that supports melee wizard than play a dual class fighter to average out HP/defenses and have weaker spells.

[JFutral]

"I'm sorry but no one is going to pick "chilling grasp" sunless touch. "

 

This.

 

Joe

[dunehunter]

Grimoire slam is a hilarious weak spell, it targets enemy deflection without accuracy bonus, so it is like you try to hit someone with fist. And even you manage to hit someone, it does little damage and only a push effect. Then omg 3 sec recovery time! 'Best' lvl 2 spell ever.

[Boeroer]

But it will get +1 ACC per char level. Fists will not.

 

But I agree that it's much weaker than in PoE - and even there it isonly worthwhile if you cast Citzal's Martial Power first.

[SaruNi]

Interpreted the Enchanter ability as having the offensive functionality of "free action"---cast a dexterity affliction AoE like Binding Web and then use melee attacks from behind with impunity, at least as long as the immunity lasts. Problem is that there aren't any enchantment spells like that---and while Enchanters can cast Binding Web, the recovery malus makes it unappealing. Though since Binding Web doesn't do damage, and enemies unconscious from Sleep are only supposed to wake up on taking damage, an Enchanter could cast Sleep then Binding Web + summon weapon then attack... but on top of that Sleep only lasts 10 seconds... and while you can precast Binding Web, it only lasts 10 seconds too. Haven't tested it yet (got bored of the Web / Free Action combo back in BG2) but seems like even with high int and dex and buffs the combo is barely doable. Of course it's easier with a party... multiclass enchanter/(monk or barbarian) + transmuter/assassin (for accuracy bonus + assassinate appllies to all attack rolls while invisible from smoke veil, including recurring attack rolls from Binding Web, Chill Fog, etc.) might be good. Remove the recovery speed malus and it might be okay, but I'd prefer something more interesting. 

 

Enchanters also get access to Arcane Veil (+50 deflection except against Veil Piercing) so the loss of illusion spells isn't so bad in most cases... against veil piercing perhaps have to rely on armor.

 

The transmuter's ogre ability... liked the idea at first (and it goes with the Form of the Hapless Beast thematically) but changing might to strength hurts it. It's still one of the only strength / con bonuses that isn't an inspiration and therefore stacks with them. But you need to multiclass or have another character give you inspirations for that to be good.... 

 

There could be some synergy between Ogre form and the Transmuter AoE's that target fortitude (Chill Fog, Malignant Cloud---I like the image of Ogre form wading into the chill fog)... but that would be more appealing if the Ogre were just immune to fortitude attacks. And between casting time and duration.... even if it worked well, there wouldn't be much time to use the combo without maxing int and action speed.

Edited January 12, 2018 by SaruNi

[ShakotanSolari]

My problem with the wizard subclasses is that they just seem, for lack of a better word, lazy. Other classes have some very interesting subclasses that, at least in concept, introduce unique and thoughtful changes to the core class. Wizard subclasses just seem almost like an afterthought - as if someone said "oh crap we forgot about wizards, lets just lock them out of some spell schools and call it a subclass." There's just no flavour to them. 

[theBalthazar]

1) Create One Unique Spell (a little better than others) for each subclass (creation). Spell etendard like arcane assault in the first.

2) Reduce to one the prohibited class. Two is too much.

3) Increase accuracy by 10 for each spells of the school.

4) For few subclasses, increase the concept. Atm only evocation is... "ok".

Edited January 12, 2018 by theBalthazar

[JFutral]

4) For few subclasses, increase the concept. Atm only evocation is... "ok".

 

Yeah, it doesn't seem like a whole lot of thought went into the spell schools concept to begin with in PoE I (nor did they need to). Now they are trying to slice them up for subclasses and the depth of concept just isn't there. I would even accept prohibited schools at two if my chosen school conferred better benefits and a deeper spell selection.

 

Joe

 

eta. Oh, and the grimoires, Oi!

Edited January 12, 2018 by JFutral

[SaruNi]

My problem with the wizard subclasses is that they just seem, for lack of a better word, lazy. Other classes have some very interesting subclasses that, at least in concept, introduce unique and thoughtful changes to the core class. Wizard subclasses just seem almost like an afterthought - as if someone said "oh crap we forgot about wizards, lets just lock them out of some spell schools and call it a subclass." There's just no flavour to them. 

 

Or the flavor elements don't interact enough with the mechanics of the class. 

 

For Conjuror, how about:

- all familiars can fly over binding web, mentioned in description

- familiars are fast cast (at most 2 per encounter so not OP)

- reduce the random bonus from familiars so it's mostly flavor

- instead of just adding a bonus to summons/summon weapon casting speed, have the familiar act as a sort of interdimensional conduit or aid who allows for faster summoning (and still vanishes when another creature is summoned)

 

For Transmuter, giving the Ogre form immunity to fortitude attacks might be too much, but give it a high enough fortitude bonus (on top of the +4 strength / +4 constitution) to enter the Transmuter's own Chill Fog / Fetid Caress /  Pull of Eora / Malignant Cloud without substantive harm. And Touch spells could be made more relevant by allowing them to be used in Ogre form....

Edited January 13, 2018 by SaruNi

[SaruNi]

The problem with Illusionist is that the bonus makes it tankier but the school restrictions make single-class illusionist suboptimal for tanking (no enchantment spells for fortitude/will defense and armor, not to mention loss of conjuration's Arcane Veil makes illusionist's deflection strictly worse than other wizards against all except veil piercing attacks). 

 

It would be cool if illusionists could actually create illusions. Like an illusory wall that enemy AI treats like a real wall. Or an illusory decoy caster that enemies run after to "attack" that can't do damage and gets dispelled on hit (maybe with a fast distant teleport ability to escape out of range of spells / slow ranged weapons while not being too OP against melee...).

Edited January 12, 2018 by SaruNi

[Heijoushin]

New bonuses would help, but honestly, what we really need is enough wizard spells that each specialist wizard can fulfill their role thematically. For example, enough summoning spells that the Conjurer can select one per level. (Like the D&D games) Or more shapeshifting spells so that a Transmuter could potentially become a shapeshifting specialist like the druid (or maybe change "summoned weapons" into "transmuted weapons") Sure, they would overlap with other classes, but is that really such a bad thing? Honestly, if you want specialist wizards, then each one needs almost as much love as an individual class. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Heijoushin

[dunehunter]

No matter what bonus it is, it should not be just a free spell for wizard subclass, that is just being shoddy and lazy yeah.

[theBalthazar]

Yes To create a surprise, it must be new. Not a different distributions of spells : p (like priest besides)

 

Obsidian must create the "unique" side of subclass and/or solo class.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I think all Wizards are pretty lame because of the long cast time. I'd make the Wizards go the way of Paladins and Priests and make specialization required, take out the penalties and power level boost because penalties are disproportionately bad, power level boost seems to mostly benefit Evokers, and I've always thought school restriction was dumb since D&D. As for benefits, I'd make it passive stuff like that meshes well with the types of spells being thrown. Evocation does this well, but think more duration for conjuration spells, improved aflictions/buffs, increased accuracy, etc.

 

Long cast time is a problem of spells, I'm only talking about the subclass passive bonus here. And I think all wizard subclasses except Evoker is pretty lame.

 

A subclass should have either heavy penalty/heavy bonus or light penalty/light bonus. Wizard subclasses restrict themselves from using spells of two schools, and recovery penalty. Imo this penalty is pretty huge, but the bonus for them except Evoker is minor.

 

Power level affects evocation spells nicely, but it is less effective on other school spells.

 

The Enchanter/Illusionist bonus is either too situational or too flat. Same as Conjurer's familiar, it is just horrible to lose two school to get a useless familiar.

 

And for Transmuter, if I remember correctly they lose access to Enchantment spells. A transmuter who turns into an Ogre and a normal wizard who buff himself with a lot inspiration and summon magic weapon, which do you think is better in melee? I'd voted for a normal wizard. 

 

I don't argue that a Enchanter, an Illusionist or a Transmuter will perform nicely on level 1, but the higher level you becomes, the worse they becomes and the penalty to lose 2 spell school becomes so obvious.

 

I generally agree, and given the lack of Level 0 abilities for Wizard(the only class that has this), I think Wizard subclasses should be forced with only one benefit being a passive geared towards the types of spells they cast. Evocation is good, but think longer duration for Conjuration, more extreme buffs/debuffs for Transmutation/Enchantment, and a larger AoE for Illusion spells. It'd fit in with the other 5 subclass classes and be balanced around the Wizard's Grimoire.

[dunehunter]

 

 

I think all Wizards are pretty lame because of the long cast time. I'd make the Wizards go the way of Paladins and Priests and make specialization required, take out the penalties and power level boost because penalties are disproportionately bad, power level boost seems to mostly benefit Evokers, and I've always thought school restriction was dumb since D&D. As for benefits, I'd make it passive stuff like that meshes well with the types of spells being thrown. Evocation does this well, but think more duration for conjuration spells, improved aflictions/buffs, increased accuracy, etc.

 

Long cast time is a problem of spells, I'm only talking about the subclass passive bonus here. And I think all wizard subclasses except Evoker is pretty lame.

 

A subclass should have either heavy penalty/heavy bonus or light penalty/light bonus. Wizard subclasses restrict themselves from using spells of two schools, and recovery penalty. Imo this penalty is pretty huge, but the bonus for them except Evoker is minor.

 

Power level affects evocation spells nicely, but it is less effective on other school spells.

 

The Enchanter/Illusionist bonus is either too situational or too flat. Same as Conjurer's familiar, it is just horrible to lose two school to get a useless familiar.

 

And for Transmuter, if I remember correctly they lose access to Enchantment spells. A transmuter who turns into an Ogre and a normal wizard who buff himself with a lot inspiration and summon magic weapon, which do you think is better in melee? I'd voted for a normal wizard. 

 

I don't argue that a Enchanter, an Illusionist or a Transmuter will perform nicely on level 1, but the higher level you becomes, the worse they becomes and the penalty to lose 2 spell school becomes so obvious.

 

I generally agree, and given the lack of Level 0 abilities for Wizard(the only class that has this), I think Wizard subclasses should be forced with only one benefit being a passive geared towards the types of spells they cast. Evocation is good, but think longer duration for Conjuration, more extreme buffs/debuffs for Transmutation/Enchantment, and a larger AoE for Illusion spells. It'd fit in with the other 5 subclass classes and be balanced around the Wizard's Grimoire.

 

 

If you want a longer duration for Conjuration, a larger AOE for illusion, they do have it, its called +1 power level.

 

I think they need some more unique bonus than just +1 power level.

[SaruNi]

+2 power level can be useful for spells with short duration, but it's much less so for spells with long duration. So perhaps give long duration spells an additional bonus (would +20% effect be OP?).

 

Also, since "each jump does 20% less damage than the last jump" makes jump spells benefit far less than projectile spells, make it so all jumps have the same damage roll (at least in most cases... and I like the idea of each jump doing more damage as in Bounding Missile though that does seem likely to be unintended).  

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

I think all Wizards are pretty lame because of the long cast time. I'd make the Wizards go the way of Paladins and Priests and make specialization required, take out the penalties and power level boost because penalties are disproportionately bad, power level boost seems to mostly benefit Evokers, and I've always thought school restriction was dumb since D&D. As for benefits, I'd make it passive stuff like that meshes well with the types of spells being thrown. Evocation does this well, but think more duration for conjuration spells, improved aflictions/buffs, increased accuracy, etc.

 

Long cast time is a problem of spells, I'm only talking about the subclass passive bonus here. And I think all wizard subclasses except Evoker is pretty lame.

 

A subclass should have either heavy penalty/heavy bonus or light penalty/light bonus. Wizard subclasses restrict themselves from using spells of two schools, and recovery penalty. Imo this penalty is pretty huge, but the bonus for them except Evoker is minor.

 

Power level affects evocation spells nicely, but it is less effective on other school spells.

 

The Enchanter/Illusionist bonus is either too situational or too flat. Same as Conjurer's familiar, it is just horrible to lose two school to get a useless familiar.

 

And for Transmuter, if I remember correctly they lose access to Enchantment spells. A transmuter who turns into an Ogre and a normal wizard who buff himself with a lot inspiration and summon magic weapon, which do you think is better in melee? I'd voted for a normal wizard. 

 

I don't argue that a Enchanter, an Illusionist or a Transmuter will perform nicely on level 1, but the higher level you becomes, the worse they becomes and the penalty to lose 2 spell school becomes so obvious.

 

I generally agree, and given the lack of Level 0 abilities for Wizard(the only class that has this), I think Wizard subclasses should be forced with only one benefit being a passive geared towards the types of spells they cast. Evocation is good, but think longer duration for Conjuration, more extreme buffs/debuffs for Transmutation/Enchantment, and a larger AoE for Illusion spells. It'd fit in with the other 5 subclass classes and be balanced around the Wizard's Grimoire.

 

 

If you want a longer duration for Conjuration, a larger AOE for illusion, they do have it, its called +1 power level.

 

I think they need some more unique bonus than just +1 power level.

 

Those were just examples, Conjuration and Illusion provide some problems because they seem more broad than Evocations damage spells, enchantments buffs, and transmutations debuffs. I can't think of any offhand because I don't like most conjuration spells and I mainly stick to displaced image for illusion.