Killing Eothas speculation.

[Bozalosc]

This is just my theory, at some point we are going to be contacted by one of the many "Gods" in the game, they are going to tell us that we are going to need to make the Godhammer Bomb again in order to kill Eothas. We've already created "God" weapons, such as Abydon's Hammer in White March Part 2 using The White Forge. The Godhammer Bomb was Magran's work which Durance was a follower of and he helped create it so did 11 other engineers, but Magran was working with Woedica to kill Eothas. So i believe that one of these "Gods" will contact you in some way to try to get you to create the Godhammer Bomb. Any other theories are welcome.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Bozalosc

[Baltic]

People seem to be presuming we’re going to kill Eothas a little too quickly. If we do have the option to kill him, it probably won’t be in a boss battle, unless he starts inhabiting a smaller vessel. There is a question as if there would be a point to killing him as he could be reincarnated again.

[Juodas Varnas]

Kill him? Can't i just tell him to apologize and go back under the keep?

[Tagaziel]

Upon re-reading the companion (Collector's Book) and the mention of the territories in the East that are purported to be the gods' own, I think it's going to be a little more nuanced than that and explore the idea of gods in a setting where souls are fact and gods artificial creations. We barely scratched the surface of Engwithan lore and civilization, after all, so what if we venture far to the east and find... Say, a way to become a god? Merge with Eothas? Replace him? 

[Ryvnai]

I feel like if we did "fight" him it may involve projecting ourselves into the statue to literally take our soul back.  What we do in there is anyone's guess.

 

 

Kill him? Can't i just tell him to apologize and go back under the keep?

What keep?  Last I heard he completely destroys it, and there is also the enormous hole in the ground he would leave busting his way out that everything probably eventually collapses into.  Something tells me that we won't be rebuilding this keep again.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ryvnai

[Juodas Varnas]

I feel like if we did "fight" him it may involve projecting ourselves into the statue to literally take our soul back.  What we do in there is anyone's guess.

 

 

Kill him? Can't i just tell him to apologize and go back under the keep?

What keep?  Last I heard he completely destroys it, and there is also the enormous hole in the ground he would leave busting his way out that everything probably eventually collapses into.  Something tells me that we won't be rebuilding this keep again.

1. He goes back in the hole

2. Put dirt over said hole

3. Build new keep.

4. ???

5. PROFIT

[Aramintai]

Eh, killing Eothas? I'm not even sure he'll end up a main villain, let alone about killing him. 

He may as well drop the giant adra statue body, slip into some kith form and become a secret companion. Nothing is certain.

[Ryvnai]

Why not just build a new keep on an island in the deadfire or if we go east and can stay there build one there if that is your goal?  It feels like a lot more trouble than it is worth to rebuild caed nua, especially since you still have a giant statue that any other diety can posses right beneath you.  Hope none of the other gods hate your guts.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ryvnai

[algroth]

Killing him will surely throw a wrench into my plans of romancing him though.

Edited December 8, 2017 by algroth

[JerekKruger]

I'd let him off wrecking Caed Nua if he agreed to allow me to build a new keep on to of his shoulders and go where I told him.

[Blades of Vanatar]

I think we find out he is truly the only real god.

[Lamppost in Winter]

I'd be somewhat disappointed if it were so simple as finding a way to kill Eothas. One thing I liked about the main plot of Pillars was how incidental combat was to the mandatory quests. There was a lot of combat in them, but it wasn't the main point of anything you were doing, apart from killing Thaos. And even then, the difficulty of killing Thaos wasn't what the Watcher was significant for. All the difficult boss fights being in optional side quests was a good approach, I felt.

[blotter]

 

 

I'd be somewhat disappointed if it were so simple as finding a way to kill Eothas.

 

Sawyer has hinted that things may not boil down to hostilities between the Watcher and Eothas, but I'd be pretty disappointed if there wasn't any option to kill the bastard after having wrecked the keep and gobbled up most of the Watcher's soul. It doesn't have to be done through combat, necessarily, and if the process functions anything like the initial confrontation between St. Waidwen and the Dozen at Halgot Citadel it probably wouldn't, but between the precedent that's already been set and the abundance of motivation that the storyline gives us to off him again, the "let's kill Eothas" route would be really noticeable through its absence (and I don't mean in a good way).

 

It doesn't have to be the default route or even portrayed as a positive/sane choice by any means once we get more information on what's going on, but it should be there in some form.

[Lamppost in Winter]

Oh for sure. Not against having that option.

[JerekKruger]

If we are given the option of killing him (or at least fighting him) I wonder how it would be done. I can't imagine him being present on a normal map as the statue is just too big. It could be done in a dialogue perhaps, but I imagine a lot of people would find that unsatisfying.

[Bozalosc]

I like all of these comments, a lot of things i didn't think of. Like someone said what if we merged with him instead of killing him, which is an interesting idea i don't know how that would work but it's a cool idea. Or if he became a companion and secretly was spying on you and probably trying to find out what your weakness is. I went straight to killing him because he destroyed my god damn keep i spent hours on. I like the idea of taking his power and imprisoning him.

[blotter]

If we are given the option of killing him (or at least fighting him) I wonder how it would be done. I can't imagine him being present on a normal map as the statue is just too big. It could be done in a dialogue perhaps, but I imagine a lot of people would find that unsatisfying.

The simplest way to address the issue is to force Eothas into a more manageable form. Eothas himself/itself may ultimately discard the statue to avoid the attention it attracts or to gave access to something that it cannot reach, for example, or the Watcher may employ some means (possibly via an extended questline) of wrecking the statue which requires Eothas to relocate to something or someone else. Or the fight might take place in the Beyond, where the forms that Eothas and the Watcher take may be more compatible for the purpose of confrontation.

[Tagaziel]

One thing to remember is that we're talking about a god, not your average Admeth from Whogivesa****ford, Nowherewood. The Godhammer, a purpose-built god-killing bomb failed to kill him, so I doubt a straight-up fight is in the cards.

[blotter]

One thing to remember is that we're talking about a god, not your average Admeth from Whogivesa****ford, Nowherewood. The Godhammer, a purpose-built god-killing bomb failed to kill him, so I doubt a straight-up fight is in the cards.

 

If you're saying that there likely won't and shouldn't be a simple linear progression where you just make your way through the game, leveling up along the way until you're a bad enough dude to carve up Eothas with awesome loot you're decked out in, then I agree. But if you're saying that, as a god, Eothas should be beyond any meaningful confrontation with mortals or risk of permanent harm through such confrontations regardless of the resources the player gathers, the factions they rally, the favor they curry with other gods, etc., then I think you've mistaken this for a setting where the gods actually are untouchable as opposed to fallible constructs.

 

There are a few things to consider here:

• We do not know the full extent of Eothas' recovery from his previous defeat: even with the souls he's drained, he could be severely weakened from his previous brush with death and perhaps even undergoing steady decline within the game itself.
• The implications of Eothas' choice of destination: the Deadfire's attracted as much attention as it has through luminous adra - if Eothas is trying to tap into that as well then that not only potentially sets him at odds with other factions, one of which (Rauatai) assisted in the construction of the Godhammer if memory serves, but it also relates back to potential vulnerability to backlash from the destruction of luminous adra he has attuned himself to (and the beta demonstrates that the Watcher can destroy luminous adra under the right conditions).
• The feelings of the other gods about Eothas' return: Woedica and Magran probably aren't happy about it, Rymrgand might have an interest in the annihilation of other gods in general (and perhaps especially the annihilation of the god of rebirth), Skaen might be game (I've mentioned in other threads the possibility of becoming the Effigy in an attempt to bring Eothas low as one example, but more generally, his relationship with Woedica along with the fact that Eothas is both a strictly authoritarian god and the foundation by which all power in the nation of Readceras is organized might provide further incentive for him to plot Eothas' return to death), Berath is said to play an important part in this (perhaps specifically as the Pale Knight, given that they refer to Berath with a feminine pronoun in an earlier update, and this manifestation confronts those who have "escaped or cheated death", which may not bode too well for the Watcher or Eothas).
• The stability/integrity of Eothas' form: the Engwithan statue that he's walking around in, while obviously at least partially restored by Eothas in some way, is something that the adra dragon had latched on to and fed off of for centuries. It might inherently have weaknesses as a result of such continual depletion, to say nothing of any potential damage to it from the strain of housing the soul of a god.
• The Watcher's connection to Eothas: the Watcher must seek out Eothas to obtain knowledge on how to preserve the remnants of their soul, according to the fig page, and this knowledge is apparently capable of "throw[ing] mortals and the gods themselves into chaos".

At the end of the day, though, I'm not blind to the possibility that the return of Eothas may indicate the developers' intentions to reintroduce him to the setting as an active character who can become involved in future games/developments. Even so, this isn't necessarily incompatible with killing Eothas: for example, if the Dawnstars function similarly to the Eyeless, they might have some existence independent of Eothas himself, allowing them to take on his name/mantle if he is slain/destroyed. Perhaps even more audaciously, a facsimile of Eothas might be constructed from luminous adra throughout the Deadfire through a feat similar to the one by which the Engwithans forged the gods (likely causing massive upheaval and untold loss of life throughout the region in the process) in order to "balance out" the pantheon in the wake of the original's death. 

 

To be honest, though, I'd personally be satisfied with only "sort of" killing Eothas again so long as it scars him and his faith in some lasting way despite his possibly inevitable return.

Edited December 12, 2017 by blotter

[JerekKruger]

The simplest way to address the issue is to force Eothas into a more manageable form. Eothas himself/itself may ultimately discard the statue to avoid the attention it attracts or to gave access to something that it cannot reach, for example, or the Watcher may employ some means (possibly via an extended questline) of wrecking the statue which requires Eothas to relocate to something or someone else. Or the fight might take place in the Beyond, where the forms that Eothas and the Watcher take may be more compatible for the purpose of confrontation.

 

The Beyond seems like a great location for a battle. Good catch.

[blotter]

The Beyond seems like a great location for a battle. Good catch.

Thanks; I think it'd also be a good chance to show off how a god's territory might appear to mortal eyes (if the gods actually stake claims to particular sections of the metaphysical landscape in Pillars) in this setting if the location of such a fight happened to be within or near Eothas' slice of the Beyond.

[Tagaziel]

 

 

 

If you're saying that there likely won't and shouldn't be a simple linear progression where you just make your way through the game, leveling up along the way until you're a bad enough dude to carve up Eothas with awesome loot you're decked out in, then I agree. But if you're saying that, as a god, Eothas should be beyond any meaningful confrontation with mortals or risk of permanent harm through such confrontations regardless of the resources the player gathers, the factions they rally, the favor they curry with other gods, etc., then I think you've mistaken this for a setting where the gods actually are untouchable as opposed to fallible constructs.

 

It's the first one. The gods being AIs is an amazing idea... And since they were brought into existence by men, they can certainly be unmade by men. My point was more related to the nature of the gods: The Engwithans sacrificed themselves en masse (one could say ascended) to create the gods as Eora knows, so one soul, no matter how powerful it is, couldn't quite put a dent in them. Even Thaos  bargained with Woedica, rather than controlling her, as far as I remember. 

 

I like your points, even if the prospect of a special ending for the Effigy freaks me the hell out (yeah, I have a vivid imagiantion).

[blotter]

It's the first one. The gods being AIs is an amazing idea... And since they were brought into existence by men, they can certainly be unmade by men. My point was more related to the nature of the gods: The Engwithans sacrificed themselves en masse (one could say ascended) to create the gods as Eora knows, so one soul, no matter how powerful it is, couldn't quite put a dent in them. Even Thaos  bargained with Woedica, rather than controlling her, as far as I remember. 

Fair enough. What you're saying makes sense and I agree to a point that it should be virtually, if not absolutely, impossible for one mortal alone to harm a god in this setting given nature of said gods' construction/existence. Still, even setting aside the particulars of what makes the case of Eothas a possible exception to this general rule, it is worth mentioning that the Watcher has proven capable of shredding thousands, or perhaps even tens of thousands, of souls into nonexistence before:

both in the case of Sun in Shadow with the Hollowborn and without the help of Engwithan machinery at Cayron's Scar depending on how you deal with the souls of the Eyeless at the end of the second White March expansion.

With that in mind, Watchers of sufficiently absurd power may be exceptions to this decisive gulf between gods and mortals, at least as far as significantly harming the former is concerned.

 

Though to reiterate, I wouldn't want a confrontation with Eothas to be a simple matter of walking up to him and hacking away at his adra ankles until he tips over: a lot should go into setting the stage for an in-game battle and stacking the odds in your favor enough for the prospect of fighting Eothas, however weakened he may be at this point, to be less than totally insane. Further, the preparation for such an event might quite reasonably require the Watcher to kill, enslave, or imprison both Xoti and/or Eder if either of them has been recruited (though perhaps not, depending on character development opportunities that may be available for them).

 

I wouldn't want the choice of killing Eothas to necessarily be limited to 'evil' characters, but taking steps to do so should force a Watcher to consider how far they're willing to go for revenge (or justice, if this is about punishing Eothas for thousands of other souls he consumed when he awakened under your keep) and it's also hard to ignore the likelihood/inevitability of conflict between faithful Eothasian companions and a Watcher who has persistently demonstrated that they are set on killing the god that these companions worship.

 

I like your points, even if the prospect of a special ending for the Effigy freaks me the hell out (yeah, I have a vivid imagiantion).

 

Thanks, and yeah, going Effigy on Eothas probably would have to take the form of an extended scripted encounter, alternate epilogue, or non-standard game over rather than anything along the lines of an in-game fight - or maybe they could sidestep the need for multiple new Effigy models and animations for different races/sexes by simply shrouding your Watcher in a bloody aura or making a single shared model on the basis that an Effigy which would be up to the task of threatening another god is something that the Watcher might have to transfer their soul into rather than being transformed into themselves.

Edited December 13, 2017 by blotter

[Bozalosc]

One thing to remember is that we're talking about a god, not your average Admeth from Whogivesa****ford, Nowherewood. The Godhammer, a purpose-built god-killing bomb failed to kill him, so I doubt a straight-up fight is in the cards.

He's not exactly a god, I'm pretty sure in the story they delve into that in the last missions, that thaos's people tried looking for the gods and couldn't find them anywhere they looked or went using animancy, and other technological advances. So they made them selves "gods" in order to prevent wide out rage and chaos that if there where no gods intern there are no consequences to what a person does.

[Tagaziel]

Fair enough. What you're saying makes sense and I agree to a point that it should be virtually, if not absolutely, impossible for one mortal alone to harm a god in this setting given nature of said gods' construction/existence. Still, even setting aside the particulars of what makes the case of Eothas a possible exception to this general rule, it is worth mentioning that the Watcher has proven capable of shredding thousands, or perhaps even tens of thousands, of souls into nonexistence before:

both in the case of Sun in Shadow with the Hollowborn and without the help of Engwithan machinery at Cayron's Scar depending on how you deal with the souls of the Eyeless at the end of the second White March expansion.

With that in mind, Watchers of sufficiently absurd power may be exceptions to this decisive gulf between gods and mortals, at least as far as significantly harming the former is concerned.

 

Though to reiterate, I wouldn't want a confrontation with Eothas to be a simple matter of walking up to him and hacking away at his adra ankles until he tips over: a lot should go into setting the stage for an in-game battle and stacking the odds in your favor enough for the prospect of fighting Eothas, however weakened he may be at this point, to be less than totally insane. Further, the preparation for such an event might quite reasonably require the Watcher to kill, enslave, or imprison both Xoti and/or Eder if either of them has been recruited (though perhaps not, depending on character development opportunities that may be available for them).

 

I put off playing White March and the Deadfire beta, so no more excuses I guess. But yeah, sufficiently absurd power may be blurring the line between gods and men (given that soulent divine is made from people)... Though I think it's still below divine level, otherwise the pantheon would be a lot more flexible than Engwithans planned it. Perhaps powerful enough to wound, but not definitively kill.

 

Given Obsidian's history, I doubt it's going to be straightforward or that killing Eothas will be even a reasonable option (much like slaughtering the caravan at the beginning of PoE1).

 

I wouldn't want the choice of killing Eothas to necessarily be limited to 'evil' characters, but taking steps to do so should force a Watcher to consider how far they're willing to go for revenge (or justice, if this is about punishing Eothas for thousands of other souls he consumed when he awakened under your keep) and it's also hard to ignore the likelihood/inevitability of conflict between faithful Eothasian companions and a Watcher who has persistently demonstrated that they are set on killing the god that these companions worship.

Absolutely. Given what I know about the game's main story and its implications (wasn't there something about the revelations being a threat to kith and gods alike?), it may be that the whole confrontation with Eothas might lead to destroying the pantheon. Or it may put you in the shoes of Thaos, with a new spin on his role and views: Maybe the gods are needed to make the world more bearable, as was the original plan?

 

 

Thanks, and yeah, going Effigy on Eothas probably would have to take the form of an extended scripted encounter, alternate epilogue, or non-standard game over rather than anything along the lines of an in-game fight - or maybe they could sidestep the need for multiple new Effigy models and animations for different races/sexes by simply shrouding your Watcher in a bloody aura or making a single shared model on the basis that an Effigy which would be up to the task of threatening another god is something that the Watcher might have to transfer their soul into rather than being transformed into themselves.

All good points. Given how the Effigy is made, it'd likely just be a custom skin for the various body types.

 

...

 

Ugh. Effigy making.