What is the problem with misses of the new system ?

[theBalthazar]

Hello,

 

I understand the absense of grazes. It becoming an element of gameplay. OK, no problem, I know that.

 

But, this doesn't explain why It fails as often. Exemple :

 

I have the double of accuracy compared to my opponent :

 

 

85 VS 42 Miss. Yeah... !^^

 

I test that in reaction on a man in another topic said that with the right investments we could make the wizard something correct. I was trying to boost the accuracy in this exercise and prove his claims. False for me. Even with grazes, I only do a "graze" with this attack. Worst than Tyranny in fact.

 

Yes it is flame of devotion, but it is worst with spells : (flame of devotion = +20 of accuracy + 12 One handed +9 perception, so pretty solid... look at the pictures)

 

And it is Relaxed gameplay here. No PoTD...^^

Edited November 26, 2017 by theBalthazar

[morhilane]

You still have ~%5 of chance to miss in Deadfire with a 43 difference between accuracy and defense (in POE1 that was a %5 of grazing).

 

Your "Roll: 3" is like rolling a 1 on a d20 in D&D: automatic fail.

[MaxQuest]

If you can't graze, you need to get 51 in order for swing to connect. And you had 46. I.e. you have 8% chance to miss.

 

Just random thought: what if grazes were only disabled for auto-attacks, while spells and (optionally) abilities could graze like in PoE1?

Edited November 26, 2017 by MaxQuest

[OrangePulp]

My suspicion was that grazes were removed by default specifically because of spells and abilities, namely CC. As has been suggested before, maybe CC should have a lesser effect on graze, but for some CCs, even 50% duration was really strong, as you could then combo into something else with the reduced defenses.

[Boeroer]

Or cast Eldritch Aim? Or dire Blessing.

 

However - casters still suck. Just doing a fifth run with all custom hirelings. All pure casters are really bad while anything with a fighter is good. Chanter, too. Rest is ok if it's no pure caster.

 

Even the OP Nature Godlike Livegiver is a chore to play because you have to time your casting meticulously and keep allies in range for quite some time. Powerful but annoying...

 

I've already put 100+ hours into the beta now. I don't know exactly why... but the combat feels so much worse than PoE's. It's no fun at all. I'm already tired of it and bored. And I can't really say why.

It's also very "crowded". All that inspiration counters affliction stuff and Concentration counters Interrupting is all nice and tactical fancy-shmancy and all. But actually while in combat it's just overwhelming so I always end up with "ah well whatever - I'll select all melees and auto-attack that guy there *guy explodes in seconds*".

 

The only thing that I really like is to play solo with a sneaky guy. The new stealth system is very nice. But then of course it's like a totally different game.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Boeroer

[Katarack21]

My suspicion was that grazes were removed by default specifically because of spells and abilities, namely CC. As has been suggested before, maybe CC should have a lesser effect on graze, but for some CCs, even 50% duration was really strong, as you could then combo into something else with the reduced defenses.

It's been suggested to use the new tier-based system and, on a CC spell graze, simply lower the effect by one tier, so paralyze becomes imobolized, etc. I think it's a very good compromise.

[Boeroer]

But what about the low level spells then that only cause a tier-1 affliction? They'd graze and do nothing basically.

[Katarack21]

But what about the low level spells then that only cause a tier-1 affliction? They'd graze and do nothing basically.

Lowered duration for those. But those are things like hobbled and whatnot that generally have pretty small effects, and the enemies can dismiss tier-1 afflictions entirely with tier-1 inspirations or whatever, so I don't think it's as large an effect on overall gameplay. I believe the big concern was for hard CC's.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Katarack21

[theBalthazar]

Or cast Eldritch Aim? Or dire Blessing. 

 

 

Still graze max, for Difference of +40. Accuracy becoming less useful.

 

The question could be : This graze VS this accuracy.

 

50% duration was really strong

 

 

Yes, but even a hit was strong. And int mod was also a big improvement : 10 > 15 seconds ~.

 

 

All pure casters are really bad while anything with a fighter is good. Chanter, too.

 

 

I try me too, impossible to do anything with these zero. Wizard mosltly, priest / cipher for part. Druid is save by spiritshifting.

 

I tried with that to test deeply possibilities, but, with +9 perception / One handed / Zeal focus / The abilitie with max accuracy (=flame of devotion), FIRST MOVE^^ = Miss.

 

I was in a state of shock, disturbed, destabilized : p. Then, as seen on the picture, the mercenary rogue also missed after that... a simple xaurip : p I needed to create this topic: p

[Katarack21]

You just had a bad roll with your first shot, man. You had a *REALLY* good likelihood but rolled a 3. It happens.

One of these days I'll tell you about the cybered-out troll I was playing in Shadowrun 3rd Edition who got sniped from across the street. I rolled twenty-six body dice and critically failed.

[MaxQuest]

It's been suggested to use the new tier-based system and, on a CC spell graze, simply lower the effect by one tier, so paralyze becomes imobolized, etc. I think it's a very good compromise.

Ehh, arguably... if you want to land hard cc - you want hard cc, even if for just 3s such that you could recast it.

 

The point is to prevent target from damaging your party completely. And if's not feasible... bye bye high-dps-heavy-cc party composition =( hello tank and spank style.

[Katarack21]

 

It's been suggested to use the new tier-based system and, on a CC spell graze, simply lower the effect by one tier, so paralyze becomes imobolized, etc. I think it's a very good compromise.

Ehh, arguably... if you want to land hard cc - you want hard cc, even if for just 3s such that you could recast it.

 

The point is to prevent target from damaging your party completely. And if's not feasible... bye bye high-dps-heavy-cc party composition =( hello tank and spank style.

 

Right, but given the tier downgrade, you wouldn't end up with the hard CC you planned on, just something close. Say you cast paralyze on a target and you graze--you'd immobolize the target instead. Useful, but it's still dealing damage to the dude it was up on. Or you go to cast confuse, graze, and end up with the target dazed (or whatever the downgrade is). The downgrade tier system allows a graze to still have some useful effect, but not the full effect you were planning on. Of course you could always try again, but so could you on a miss.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

My suspicion was that grazes were removed by default specifically because of spells and abilities, namely CC. As has been suggested before, maybe CC should have a lesser effect on graze, but for some CCs, even 50% duration was really strong, as you could then combo into something else with the reduced defenses.

 

 

From what Sawyer has said on SA, the reasons they minimized grazing were:

 

 

Players complained that Grazes usually felt inconsequential for damaging attacks, overpowered for CC/Affliction attacks, and generally confused them, math-wise.

 

BTW, almost all long cast spells (e.g. Fireball) inherently have Graze.

 

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=8#post478490287

[Katarack21]

God I hate that SA paywall. >.<

[theBalthazar]

You just had a bad roll with your first shot, man. You had a *REALLY* good likelihood but rolled a 3. It happens.

 

One of these days I'll tell you about the cybered-out troll I was playing in Shadowrun 3rd Edition who got sniped from across the street. I rolled twenty-six body dice and critically failed.

 

 

I understand. But This happen too often. 

 

The question is : 80 VS 40 for this feeling of recurrence (Miss and grazes)

 

And more, for wizzard specifically, the time spend to cast and recover. Melee class = battle already finished.

 

On the screenshot, Dire blessing was in preparation, obviously but this doesn't explain the quantity of accuracy compared to deflection, and this result.

 

We notice that, the bias according to witch there is no all objects in the beta is not totally true...

 

Because forcing 80 accuracy for a average of 40 not reduce this difference enough. (for me)

Edited November 26, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

God I hate that SA paywall. >.<

 

The funny thing is SA used to be a %^&@hole relative to the rest of the internet, but these days, because of the paywall, by internet standards it's a relatively highbrow polite place

[Katarack21]

Maybe, but it pisses me off that my refusal to give them ten bucks means I miss out on half the updates provided by Josh lmao

[Gromnir]

 

You just had a bad roll with your first shot, man. You had a *REALLY* good likelihood but rolled a 3. It happens.

 

One of these days I'll tell you about the cybered-out troll I was playing in Shadowrun 3rd Edition who got sniped from across the street. I rolled twenty-six body dice and critically failed.

 

 

I understand. But This happen too often. 

 

 

no it doesn't.  is the reality o' random number generation.

 

somebody gotta link to the tim cain presentation 'bout the 7 mistakes?

 

 

start at 25 minute mark.

 

"this feeling of recurrence"

 

*insert eye roll here*

 

where is a tim cain snark response when you need it?

 

real question is how this thread can continue when in first post you see the roll o' 3.  mystery solved. end.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[theBalthazar]

Gromnir, you are a troll, we know that, but now, my subject is not only on THIS event, and a simple 3.

 

Obvious. +50 hours on beta, and you ? 

 

So, if I create this topic, this is not on one little feeling or a amplified random situation.

 

I give my opinion with a severals and factual tries of beta, the screen is illustrative, not an ultimate proof. And I affirm it : if Obsidian want to dynamize the battle with less useless event (Miss, semi-efficiency with high difference of accuracy) : lost bet. It is all.

 

The principle problem with that is : Viable and optimal situation in a bad way. You gain with a differencial of +40 accuracy, you should not even fail or graze. If have 40 of accuracy, the situation is just a little less good.

 

We trade differentiation with Accuracy, against Massive Hit converted to crits etc. Like Tyranny for people who know...

 

And Gromnir, because you must remember it :

 

 

FAR more logical if you want dynamize the battle. 

 

mystery solved. end.

 

 

Now yes. There is a perfect explanation... And it is not only feel of recurrence ? Too bad !

 

For me, there is a way to make a system between the two. Between POE1 and POE2 beta. It is all I say.

Edited November 26, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Gromnir]

'ccording to steam, we got 69 hours.  such an observation proves, what?  well, am gonna circle back to this.

 

your response doesn't change fact that your revealed example does nothing other than clarify how the combat mechanics is working as intended.  huzzah. you should not have hit with a roll o' three.  duh.  such numbers also ain't disparate compared to past crpg titles... titles often held up as the shining beacon obsidian should be attempting to replicate. with your example you had an 8% chance to miss.  *gasp* in oldie d&d, a roll o' 1 on a 20 sided die, regardless o' the thac0 math, would result in a miss. 5%.  and how much damage output is you losing from absent grazes?  clear not enough to handicap weapon combat in deadfire.show us the missed hit in a vacuum is meaningless.  not seeing much o' a difference.

 

oh, and 69 hours has indeed revealed to us a few things including how our obvious undergeared party is not underpowered when using weapons in combat. penetration needs adjusting.  offensive spells need help with penetration.  tanks is a bit op at the moment. etc. have learned much. get fixated on the 8% miss chance inspite o' high accuracy ignores the utter absence o' a problem save for feel. you look at the combat log and are bothered while your party no doubt is carving up foes with their weapons with little difficulty... at least as long as you are using penetration weapons.

 

69 hours?  your "feeling of recurrence" is just that... feel. ignore it.  maybe in another ~20 hours you will be able to shake the baggage o' misunderstanding rng.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps (added ) you are using "logic" wrong.  maybe you find the new system less realistic, but is nothing inherent illogical 'bout it.  

 

groundhog day.

 

'course grazes is still attainable in deadfire, so take the appropriate talents or cast dire blessing or whatnot solves your conundrum.  however, poe release had multitudes o' folks complaining 'bout grazes from domination and paralysis and petrification in spite o' even more overwhelming defense disparities than you present in the genesis post.  no-win.  

 

as has been noted ad nauseum by now, dire blessing is massive op... and not 'cause it makes weapon users more efficacious.  doesn't even help damage-dealing casters.  dire blessing allows graze o' debuffs and cc. example: the chanter ar reduction invocation is vast more powerful when affected by dire blessing. 'course this capacity to graze with debuffs and cc is exact what had people frothing 'bout after poe release.  no-win.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Gromnir

[theBalthazar]

We'll see that with the full game. This will be the real test for the system.

 

At the moment we do not have all the equipment, all our possibilities (I am sure that they will add other capacities) etc.

 

In my opinion atm, What is absurd : the range of 50% of misses with 0 of difference accuracy/defense.

 

Before you have dire blessing (we start level 1 not 6...) = not fun to miss 50 % of attack... : p

Edited November 27, 2017 by theBalthazar

[daven]

Why's everyone complaining?

 

Back in BG and NWN for the first half of the game you missed nearly every attack. It's like the good old days!

[Boeroer]

Why don't you go to that hole in the ground instead of using the water closet?

[theBalthazar]

Back in BG and NWN for the first half of the game you missed nearly every attack

 

 

Not for me.

 

+ Not a reason.

Edited November 27, 2017 by theBalthazar

[morhilane]

Why's everyone complaining?

 

Back in BG and NWN for the first half of the game you missed nearly every attack. It's like the good old days!

Not just for the first half technically, D&D attack resolution is that at equal to-hit vs AC (i.e. equal challenge rating) you miss about 50% of the time.

 

But, D&D encounter design is that enemies will be dead by the 5th weapon swing most of the time unless they are a "boss encounter".

 

That is clearly not the case of POE/POE2, everything is basically an HP sponge. It's probably balanced like that because health/endurance regen and weapons are on paper dealing a lots of damage (but with DR and now AR that isn't what is happening).

 

End result: people stack damage to reduce TTK and assure the party survivability, because the game mechanics are piss poor in term of defensive support too (and even more in Deadfire, the Priest was nerfed so much in regard to that)