Your Tiers List [Base Classes, Subclasses]

[dunehunter]

Pure wizard is not low tier imo, subclasses wizard are pretty trash tho, specially Conjuration ones, trash tier for sure.

[MadDemiurg]

Why chanter is OP and Beckoner WTF:

 

Overall chanters got buffed compared to PoE1. They start combat with some phrases and chanter subclasses are better than the vanilla chanter.

 

Beckoner = by far the easiest class to solo everything atm from my experience. For how ridiculous multiple beckoners are see the other thread around here about "PoE in slacker mode".

 

Base chanter is still very strong with summons and some chants can justify the chanter alone a.g. Aefyllath or the 30 pts dmg shield one which with troubadour has 0 linger and basically gives your whole party what is effectively 10/s hp regen. Or soft winds (although it's probably bugged).

 

Why Wizard is low tier:

 

Well, 1st, let's compare to PoE1. In PoE1, Wizards were one of the strongest classes imo, but not so OP to be extremely far ahead of everyone. They got huge nerfs in PoE2:

 

-Resource management. Sure, now all your spells are per encounter. But, at higher levels wizards already had some per encounter spells PoE1. The spell totals are much much lower though, especially at higher levels with only 2 spells per level (3 with restore). This makes wizards bit better in "trash mob" fights where they don't need to hold back, but a lot worse for boss fights. Overall it's a bit of a mixed bag, but it's a pretty big nerf to the wizard "super saiyan" mode.

-DAoM nerf. +50% action speed buff was a huge part of what made wizard unique compared to other casters. That and instant self buffs. Instant buffs are still there, but DAoM is basically a debuff in its current state.

-Conjured weapons nerf. All of them are massively weaker than PoE1. They still can be good for hybrids (and some of them will rank higher, although not on the top), but pure wizards with conjured weapons are far from great.

-Confusion nerf. What was the best wizard CC can now be basically removed from the game for how crappy it is. There are other decent CC spells, but overall wizards are subpar in CC to a number of other classes.

-Flexibility nerf. Because you can learn a very limited number of spells now (and have to compromise on them vs passives) you're obviously aren't as flexible.

-A number of other spells getting direct and indirect nerfs (the list would be too long).

-Arcane veil is now a spell and eats into your limited spell casts even more

 

Overall this is probably the class that got gutted the most. On the flipside, you can now have as much ACC as fighter with scrolls, lol. That, and higher base deflection.

 

But even forgetting about PoE1, if you take optimized PoE2 builds, wizards can not compete in either dps, CC or anything else really. You can deal double the dps of 2/enc single target wizard spells with just autoattack. Wizards still do decent aoe alpha but get outdpsed really fast past that alpha.  Multiclass wizards can be still decent for self buffs + conjured weapons for a class that can actually use them well, so some of these combos would rank bit higher.

 

Why Druids and Priests are not low tier if they suffer many of the same problems?

 

Druids have shifter which is very good, at least in current level range. That, plus heals got a massive buff with the removal of health/endurance divide making healers a lot more viable. Plus, Druid DoTs and returning storm are actually kinda OK for dps. Priests still have some really strong party buffs and heals and act as a power multiplier. Both are probably trash tier for solo (except shifter).

 

Note that "Low tier" doesn't mean useless, it just means "weaker than everything above".

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[JerekKruger]

I'd say in PoE Wizards, along with Druids and Priests, were in a class of their own power wise. Non-specialised Wizards are a lot weaker in comparison, though I think they are in a reasonable place now* (if tune them up a little, but not much). Specialist Wizards on the other hand are mostly bad.

 

*I sing like the way they play anymore, but that's not feel than anything else.

[Veevoir]

What moved Streetfighter to OP tier? Is it taking him as multiclass or is there some gimmick that started to work in newest beta?

[MadDemiurg]

I'd say in PoE Wizards, along with Druids and Priests, were in a class of their own power wise. Non-specialised Wizards are a lot weaker in comparison, though I think they are in a reasonable place now* (if tune them up a little, but not much). Specialist Wizards on the other hand are mostly bad.

 

*I sing like the way they play anymore, but that's not feel than anything else.

Druids - would say definitely not. They were maybe above average. Priest and Wizard were some of the strongest, but not stronger than, let's say, Paladin.

 

The biggest disparity between weapon and caster classes in both PoE1 and 2 is that it takes more knowledge of mechanics to optimize a weapon class.

 

I don't see how non specialized Wizards are in a reasonable place now (and why are they so much better than any specialist if you don't have either the uses per encounter or the ability points to learn all spells anyway) when they are inferior to other classes in pretty much every role.

 

What moved Streetfighter to OP tier? Is it taking him as multiclass or is there some gimmick that started to work in newest beta?

 

+100% damage and -50% recovery not cutting it for you? It's not hard to get yourself flanked (even without actually getting flanked)

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Veevoir]

Didn't know it was buffed. And getting flanked is largely situational - easy when tanking vs large mob, but not against few strong enemies. And aside from powder burns - any other way to just get it from skill usage?

Didnt really have the time to test Beta4 - hence my surprise.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Veevoir

[MaxQuest]

Hmm, will list my current view on power-tiers in beta4 as well.

Obviously I haven't tried all possible combinations, but mind-crunched many from power-building perspective.

Also would note that some subclasses can shift their tiers based on the combat skills they have.

 

Single Class Characters:

 

Tier-S:

- tier-1 dpsers becomes tier-s with high alchemy so long as they use drugs and potions

 

Tier-1:

- Devout

- Nalpazca (if you have and use the drugs)

- Helwalker (with high arcane and lots of scrolls)

- Berserker (it was tier-s before; but with the pen/ar bonus nerf from 4 to 2 imho it's no longer there)

- Paladins (bleakwalker, wayfarer, goldpact; and shieldbearer if you have humans/death-godlikes/streetfighters i.e. specific party built around playing at low hp but not dying)

- Streetfighter (provided that he has a party built around him; and a suiting race)

- Shifter (it would be interesting if they had a rank 4+ talent that would allow them to giveup one form, but make one spell of choice usable when shifted)

- Beckoner (it's nice to have a wall of minions that tank and deal damage for you, which also greatly benefit from you supporting chants; but don't really like playing via summons; so haven't tested much) (probably even S-Tier, if AI uses their single-target abilities on chanter's summons.)

- Skald (skald was great in my book, and even must have while hel-hyraf was reducing enemy armor by 5; now that it is only -2 I can live without it; so what remains? dealing damage but you would need to multiclass for that; or use cc; skald has nice cone charms, stuns and paralyzes which kinda compete with cc-cipher arsenal; but have a bonus of being fast to cast)

 

Tier-2:

- Unbroken

- Fighter (no subclass)

- Monk (no subclass)

- Helwalker (the increase in damage taken from wounds is higher than that in damage dealt; and this subclass would be worse than pure monk; but party focused on healing can offset that)

- Shattered-Pillar

- Lifegiver (the healing done is great; although there is one awkward moment: you want to use the form asap (for cat flurry and no armor-penalty) and at the same time not having to suffer from post-form penalty in longer fights)

- Animist

- Soublade (squishy melee, without full attacks, but with good damage bonus from whip; and soul annihilation providing a further damage increase comparable to 30% of your phys damage).

- Ascended (it's great that you can now reach ascended state faster; but aside from puppet master and later ringleader the selection of powers is not that stellar; even if you spam Detonate you are just in line with other tier-1 damage dealers)

- Beguiler (poor man's Ascended, but with the bonus of being able to use cc right away; usually requires another debilitator opening with an aoe affliction, such that beguiler could have a discount from the very start; Beguiler really wants Mental Binding base duration from PoE1)

- Priest (of Berath and Wael) (the strong points: hots, dots, spiritual weapons and decent cross-class spells)

- Sharp-shooter (is kinda ok, but can easily live without one in party)

- Stalker (the bonus defenses are nice; but the pet has a rather slow rate of attacking; all in all it felt almost like playing a bleakwalker)

- Wizard (no subclass and evoker)

 

Tier-2.5:

- Illusionist (giving up Enchanting is harsh; I'd prefer to select myself which 2 schools to drop; or ok.. even 3 schools)

- Paladin (darcozzi) (that mini-flame shield is currently weak in my opinion)

- Assassin (kinda squishy as a single-class; I have a feeling that he has lower dps/survivability than a bleakwalker)

- Priest (of Scaen)

- Troubadour (unlike pure chanter, at least can speed-up his phrase counter and focus on supportive invocations)

 

Tier-3:

- Nalpazca (if you don't use drugs)

- Mage Slayer (unreliable bonus versus strong malus; being unable to use both potions and scrolls is huge)

- Corpse Eater (the rage cost increase is really big; and you only get the benefits when the enemies are dead; but you have to kill them in the first place; looks like only worth it for lower difficulties

- Fury (the problem is that there is a big difference between stun and dazed; might affliction resistances and fortitude often being the highest defense do lower the impact of druid's storm spells significantly; and these spells are the main reason to take a fury over animist in the first place; a minor damage buff wouldn't hurt to either elemental claws or storm spells)

- Priest (of Eothas and Magran) (aside from unique spiritual weapons and late-game deity spells; do not offer spells that other priests can't take if they want; even if I want to make a fire priest, I will rather take Berath or Wael instead)

- Wizard (conjurer and transmuter are pretty bad; their bonus is weak, while they lock you from a lot of great spells; the familiar is a joke; and summoned weapons of a specialized conjurer are the same in power

- Chanter (no subclass) (with Dragon Trashed nerfed into oblivion I don't see how can he compete damage-wise with other dps'ers; and from supportive perspective, aside from Aefyllath I didn't needed his arsenal that much in the beta)

 

Tier-4:

- Black Jacket (you lose passive healing, but don't get much in return, the faster weapon switching bonus is offset by the new common passive talent; and the extra weapon set is situationally good and requires much more micro to make it worth it)

- Cipher (no subclass) (what low-costed non-deception powers can this cipher cast that would compete with tier-1 in terms of overall impact?)

- Trickster (his spells are from illusions school, so this rogue would be focused on cc and not on damage; but than why not take a wizard instead? or he's designed around using minor-blights scrolls with rogue special attacks for the aoe effect?)

 

---

And now if taking multi-classing into account:

 

Tier-S:

- Devout (extra sturdiness aside, when multi-classed into can provide a better focus generation for ascended; reliability for cc-wizard/chanter; and extra dps for other martial classes)

- Helwalker (does provide extra stats for characters focused on damage over time; shenanigans with main-tanking under Barring Death's Door and alchemy stuff, while spamming torments non-stop)

- Bleakwalker/Wayfarer/Goldpact (extra sturdiness with full attacks)

- Nalpazca (drugs duration bonus and even more incentive to invest into alchemy)

- Shattered Pillar (in theory; if he generates extra wounds from Charge and Soul Annihilation)

- Streetfighter (superb bonuses; and really strong if building a party around him, which would keep him from dying)

- Beckoner (synergy with heal/sup paladin and animist: shift to cat (no armor penalty), enable cat flurry, summon stuff and throw aoe HoTs)

 

Tier-1:

- Skald (synergy with fighter, CSL, and extra acc from ranger/paladin full attacks)

- Soulblade (synergy with devout, monk, shifter?, bleakwalker and streetfighter)

- Ascended (the idea is to pick a second class that would increase focus generation or power level; and once max focus is reached to start... checks powers from the first 3 ranks... dominate stuff; not stellar but will already trivialize some fights; but the real fun will start at lvl 13, with alchemy and ringleader followed by detonate spam... but this is out of beta boundaries)

- Priest (Berath, Wael, and half-tier lower Scaen) (can make an awesome doter; or healer/support, although lithanies do have kinda long casting time)

- Lifegiver (can be a supreme healer with something like Helwalker taken for the stats; the question is what armor to take and when to use the spiritshift during boss fights though)

- Pure Wizard (CSL / Minor Blights with martial classes or for focus generation; crowd-control with acc/per bonuses of a fighter; and empowered fireball coupled with assassin's passives)

- Assassin (there are classes that can alleviate assassins squishiness, while capitalizing on this damage increasing passives)

- Berserker (a second class can find a workaround against being confused; or pump his damage even further)

 

Tier-2:

- the rest

 

Tier-3:

- Trickster (a beguiler can multi-class in this one, if he's ok with opening with rogue special ability and only after that using a deception power; still it's better to have another aoe debilitator in the party that would throw a soft affliction right before beguiler will land his)

- Wizard (conjurer and transmuter) (their bonuses are not strong enough to make up for 2 schools of magic being locked) (btw, what if we could select which 2 schools to lock ourselves? or heck even 3?)

- Black Jacket (aside from switching sets for firearm Ascended, I don't see much incentive in multi-classing into this subclass; and even for Ascended I'll probably just take Devout instead)

 

Tier-4:

- Pure cipher (why exactly are you multi-classing into pure-cipher? What can he do that beguiler and ascended won't? Cast low-level damaging powers? They are not that worth it.

 

P.S. These views will probably shift a bit once I'll try more variations, and ofc when the game will come out, and even more when we'll see how abundant scrolls and crafting materials are. But for now that is.

Edited April 6, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

By the way:

 

Beckoner can summon 6 skeletons in 3 seconds (not 6!). That's base duration. With a bit of DEX it's even faster. The Skeletons split into two other skeletons after death. So a dying skeleton is no problem. No nead to heal them. And he only needs 2 phrases for the summoning. And he starts the encounter with 2...

 

At the same time he can buff the summons' damage with Mith Fyr and boost their move speed or use Sure Handed Ila to speed up the attack speed of ranged summons like the wurms (he can use slower summonings without a gap after the initial summoning of skeletons).

 

That's why he's WTF tier. Definetely more use- and powerful than a Devoted. Like in PoE it's not pure dps of every party member that wins the game. 

 

As I said in another thread: if you multiclass with a paladin with Zealous Focus and Shared Flames the damage of 6 skeletons with a +45% burning lash is crazy while the survivability of the whole party is increased so much. Enemies tend to attack skeletons first because of their low defenses. They die, they split, those die, you summon new ones. Who cares? It's so powerful... Next upgrade: exploding skeletons please.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

@MaxQuest nice analysis, btw have you included the OP/broken things like cleave stance, swift flurry into your account? Imo cleave is still the strongest aoe method currently, swift flurry is ok now since the chance is nerfed, and I also agree with Boeroer Beckoner is super strong combo with paladins.

[Boeroer]

Also try Assassin with explosives from steath...

[dunehunter]

I just finished the titan fight on PoTD with 4 member all level 7.

1. pale elf goldpact/soulblade with single weapon sword, idea is boost sturdiness with gilded enemy, use FoD to generate focus and then use Soul Annilation.
2. nature godlike devoted/shattered pillar, lightning strike + displine strike, well of spring boost fist damage, cleave with both fist.
3. human priest, blessing to counter sirococco, also devotion of the faithful.
4. dwarf ascendant with hunting bow, hunting bow has some wrong statistics in this beta so just abuse it.. picked draining whip and rely damage on mind blades, CC with whisper and puppet master.

I'd say that devoted/shattered pillar is just crazily good due to cleave stance, he did 3k damage during titan fight while the 2nd most is 1k. I let him tank the 4 greater sand blight and once he killed one blight, bloom, all the rest 3 dies because of cleave... Also devoted and nature godlike boost fist a lot, I have 12 penetration/24-33 crush damage on with fist ++lash++50% hit to crit, and it is fast weapon.

 

Goldpact/soulblade was not as good as imagined. It is awkward on weapon style first, if you pick DW, the low acc cannot ensure SA to land while all other style is too slow with armor. Sadly the only choice of weapon now is still dual wielding, but that makes acc too important and there are not much way to boost acc except devotions of the faithful. And enemy's deflection is really high on PoTD, which also makes this build of bad performance.

 

Priest and ascendant provides some good surpport to the team, while ascendant can be a secondary dps and main CCer when needed.

Edited April 6, 2018 by dunehunter

[MaxQuest]

Swift flurry has been nerfed as I understood, and has only 30% to proc on crit now.

I don't really like this change as it makes getting a bonus attack even more unreliable; and would prefer it just not being recursive. But I can see how broken it could be in story mode ^^

 

All in all even if you have a 100% chance to crit, current Swift Flurry will proc 2 attacks only in 9% of cases.

So it's no longer OP, and am not even sure if it's worth it on anyone, except skald and ~fighter on PotD.

 

As for Mob Stance, it can only proc as many times as there are enemies; and it requires the fighter to deal the killing blow; so you have to build your party around that. I think a devout multiclassed with berserker/bleakwalker/monk with mob stance is definitely s-tier. But would prefer to playtest it in current beta first, to check if they belong even higher. Also I am thinking: do having more than 1 of these increase the power level of your party? For example having 5 berserker/devouts vs 4 evokers + 1 swifted pale elf goldpact/mage-slayer that would run around and collect all enemies in one place, while evokers are stealthed. (or use a barb/priest which would self withdraw before mass fireball landing)

 

Beckoner is definitely strong. And I see how in solo he has a greater power level than said devout. Although I don't really like that playstyle. I prefer full party and the charm/dot route, which may be a weaker tactic, but subjectively I perceive it as on par.

But such a question: do enemies waste their single-target abilities on beckoner's summons?

[dunehunter]

Swift flurry has been nerfed as I understood, and has only 30% to proc on crit now.

I don't really like this change as it makes getting a bonus attack even more unreliable; and would prefer it just not being recursive. But I can see how broken it could be in story mode ^^

 

All in all even if you have a 100% chance to crit, current Swift Flurry will proc 2 attacks only in 9% of cases.

So it's no longer OP, and am not even sure if it's worth it on anyone, except skald and ~fighter on PotD.

 

As for Mob Stance, it can only proc as many times as there are enemies; and it requires the fighter to deal the killing blow; so you have to build your party around that. I think a devout multiclassed with berserker/bleakwalker/monk with mob stance is definitely s-tier. But would prefer to playtest it in current beta first, to check if they belong even higher. Also I am thinking: do having more than 1 of these increase the power level of your party? For example having 5 berserker/devouts vs 4 evokers + 1 swifted pale elf goldpact/mage-slayer that would run around and collect all enemies in one place, while evokers are stealthed. (or use a barb/priest which would self withdraw before mass fireball landing)

 

Beckoner is definitely strong. And I see how in solo he has a greater power level than said devout. Although I don't really like that playstyle. I prefer full party and the charm/dot route, which may be a weaker tactic, but subjectively I perceive it as on par.

But such a question: do enemies waste their single-target abilities on beckoner's summons?

 

Yep as I said swift flurry's chance is nerfed so it's not that good now. Or I'd say it is nerfed too hard, I prefer it to stay at 50% chance, but stop triggering itself. Now as your calucation said, even with 100% crit chance, proc chance is low.

 

Well you don't even need 5 devoted for the game 1-2 is enough to clean all mobs with cleave. Yes cleave stance will only trigger as many times as there are enemies, so when u are surrounded with 3 enemies, it will trigger a maximum of 3 times, but even that means 3 full attack to all target around you. Also since it triggers itself, once you made the first kill blow, it is very easy to trigger killing blow since you are performing full attack to all enemies to be honest.

 

I'd say nature godlike Devoted/Monk is definitely S-tier right now, the fist damage is fixed. So basically the fist has more damage than longsword, but has light weapon speed, also crush type is best imo. Even if you face with crush immune enemy, a Devoted/Monk has two devoted weapon type(one you picked, one fist) so you can just swap to sword to kill these. You shall try one and see if you agree with me.

Edited April 6, 2018 by dunehunter

[MaxQuest]

Well you don't even need 5 devoted for the game 1-2 is enough to clean all mobs with cleave.

True that)

 

Btw, mini thought experiment:

- devout is surrounded by 4 enemies of 200 hp each

- devout hits for 50

- without cleave: it would take him 16 hits to kill them

- with cleave: 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10 hits

 

I'd say nature godlike Devoted/Monk is definitely S-tier right now, the fist damage is fixed. So basically the fist has more damage than longsword, but has light weapon speed, also crush type is best imo. Even if you face with crush immune enemy, a Devoted/Monk has two devoted weapon type(one you picked, one fist) so you can just swap to sword to kill these. You shall try one and see if you agree with me.

Have already noted them as s-tier when multiclassed

I remember trying them briefly in beta1, clearing content in solo that those 4 mercenaries couldn't. Was OP stuff with 1s recovery on fast 1H weapons)

 

P.S. Fist damage does currently scale with character or power level?

[dunehunter]

 

Well you don't even need 5 devoted for the game 1-2 is enough to clean all mobs with cleave.

True that)

 

Btw, mini thought experiment:

- devout is surrounded by 4 enemies of 200 hp each

- devout hits for 50

- without cleave: it would take him 16 hits to kill them

- with cleave: 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10 hits

 

 

No you only need 6 hits.

 

4 hits to kill 1st enemy, which triggers cleave(full attack = 2 hits to all rest 3), then you hit 2 times to kill the 2nd, triggers another full attack cleave, rip.

 

And if there are some enemy is of low hp among them, you might only need 4 hits because the 1st cleave might kill someone, which trigger another cleave, so might be <6 hits to kill all of them.

 

Fist damage is alwasy based on PL, so nature godlike is best choice.

Edited April 6, 2018 by dunehunter

[MaxQuest]

No you only need 6 hits.

 

4 hits to kill 1st enemy, which triggers cleave(full attack = 2 hits to all rest 3), then you hit 2 times to kill the 2nd, triggers another full attack cleave, rip.

Wohoo, so "an instant AoE weapon attack" mentioned in the description is actually a full attack, and not just attack with main-hand. Than... than it's pretty broken.

[theBalthazar]

I actually deeply re-test Beckoner.

 

Update of Tiers List soon ? : p

 

It is weird because I don't remember why in BETA 2 and 3, I went down Beckoner at this point...

 

Tiers list – Beta 1 - Until level ~9

 

GOD TIERS

Devoted (Fighter)

Berserker (Barbarian)

Shifter (Druid)

Beckoner (Chanter)

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

 

I actually deeply re-test Beckoner.

 

Update of Tiers List soon ? : p

 

It is weird because I don't remember why in BETA 2 and 3, I down Beckoner at this point...

 

Tiers list – Beta 1 - Until level ~9

 

GOD TIERS

Devoted (Fighter)

Berserker (Barbarian)

Shifter (Druid)

Beckoner (Chanter)

 

 

 

Because the 9 second cast time I assume? All spells are faster now.

[MadDemiurg]

Goldpact/soulblade was not as good as imagined. It is awkward on weapon style first, if you pick DW, the low acc cannot ensure SA to land while all other style is too slow with armor. Sadly the only choice of weapon now is still dual wielding, but that makes acc too important and there are not much way to boost acc except devotions of the faithful. And enemy's deflection is really high on PoTD, which also makes this build of bad performance.

 

Priest and ascendant provides some good surpport to the team, while ascendant can be a secondary dps and main CCer when needed.

Again, how is soulblade low acc? It's as high acc as anyone else, you lack fighter's OP graze -> hit and hit -> crit but that's about it (and in a party you can get graze -> hit from a priest). With DW you have high enough DPS to spam SA every other attack and add a ton of dmg. Of course if you make him a tank with goldpact and shield he's gonna suck.

 

Didn't know it was buffed. And getting flanked is largely situational - easy when tanking vs large mob, but not against few strong enemies. And aside from powder burns - any other way to just get it from skill usage?

Didnt really have the time to test Beta4 - hence my surprise.

Nah, mostly blunderbusses or actually getting flanked. Blunderbusses are still pretty decent when you stack enough -recovery tho (and you get plenty from street fighter).

[dunehunter]

 

Goldpact/soulblade was not as good as imagined. It is awkward on weapon style first, if you pick DW, the low acc cannot ensure SA to land while all other style is too slow with armor. Sadly the only choice of weapon now is still dual wielding, but that makes acc too important and there are not much way to boost acc except devotions of the faithful. And enemy's deflection is really high on PoTD, which also makes this build of bad performance.

 

Priest and ascendant provides some good surpport to the team, while ascendant can be a secondary dps and main CCer when needed.

Again, how is soulblade low acc? It's as high acc as anyone else, you lack fighter's OP graze -> hit and hit -> crit but that's about it (and in a party you can get graze -> hit from a priest). With DW you have high enough DPS to spam SA every other attack and add a ton of dmg. Of course if you make him a tank with goldpact and shield he's gonna suck.

 

I mean your acc would be low on average if you play on PoTD. The mobs you deal with will usually have higher deflection than you acc so that means your SA has 25%+ chance to miss and lose all focus. I tried one handed style but that doesn't work too well because you cannot keep both armor and attack speed/acc. This is what I try to explain here thats all.

Edited April 6, 2018 by dunehunter

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

Goldpact/soulblade was not as good as imagined. It is awkward on weapon style first, if you pick DW, the low acc cannot ensure SA to land while all other style is too slow with armor. Sadly the only choice of weapon now is still dual wielding, but that makes acc too important and there are not much way to boost acc except devotions of the faithful. And enemy's deflection is really high on PoTD, which also makes this build of bad performance.

 

Priest and ascendant provides some good surpport to the team, while ascendant can be a secondary dps and main CCer when needed.

Again, how is soulblade low acc? It's as high acc as anyone else, you lack fighter's OP graze -> hit and hit -> crit but that's about it (and in a party you can get graze -> hit from a priest). With DW you have high enough DPS to spam SA every other attack and add a ton of dmg. Of course if you make him a tank with goldpact and shield he's gonna suck.

 

I mean your acc would be low on average if you play on PoTD. The mobs you deal with will usually have higher deflection than you acc so that means your SA has 25%+ chance to miss and lose all focus. I tried one handed style but that doesn't work too well because you cannot keep both armor and attack speed/acc. This is what I try to explain here thats all.

 

Well, anyone is missing on PoTD with roughly the same rate except for a few classes? It's not like you need to save all your focus for SA for a long time if you have high base dmg, it's usually like attack - SA - attack -SA. You would be actually wasting focus otherwise. For increased acc dualwield spears and if in a party use dire blessing etc.

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[MadDemiurg]

I think people also grossly overestimate the difference between some subclasses.

 

E.g. paladins. Some are better, but 20% extra lash on FoD won't move you a whole tier.

 

And let's say fighters. I agree that they are overall are top tier, but devoted is not really that much better than the rest, mostly more conveinient.

 

E.g. a normal fighter can switch between potentially up to 3 damage types (let's say he has dw spears/dw swords as weapon sets). Also between lower or higher pen weapons. Devoted can't do that without heavy penalties. They would probably want to take a 2 damage types weapon like sword to not get screwed by immunities, which is bit supbar compared to sabres or spears in many situations (and 1 pen lower, so it's already like +1 pen). So +2 pen they get is more like a necessity when you're mostly forced to use one type of weapons. It's nice for monks who want to use fists anyway (and effectively get 2 weapons). You also can't use shield modals, so backup defensive setup is not available. +25% crit dmg is nice with current OP hit -> crit conversion, but really it's probably still equivalent to like +10-15% dmg at most on average. Good but not amazing. I would say unbroken and vanilla fighter are very close in power level. Black jacket is worse cause they trade a good passive for a bad one, so maybe they can be a tier lower (but not more, they still have cleave, confident aim and disciplined barrage which are the main OP abilities).

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[dunehunter]

I think people also grossly overestimate the difference between some subclasses.

 

E.g. paladins. Some are better, but 20% extra lash on FoD won't move you a whole tier.

 

And let's say fighters. I agree that they are overall are top tier, but devoted is not really that much better than the rest, mostly more conveinient.

 

E.g. a normal fighter can switch between potentially up to 3 damage types (let's say he has dw spears/dw swords as weapon sets). Also between lower or higher pen weapons. Devoted can't do that without heavy penalties. They would probably want to take a 2 damage types weapon like sword to not get screwed by immunities, which is bit supbar compared to sabres or spears in many situations (and 1 pen lower, so it's already like +1 pen). So +2 pen they get is more like a necessity when you're mostly forced to use one type of weapons. It's nice for monks who want to use fists anyway (and effectively get 2 weapons). You also can't use shield modals, so backup defensive setup is not available. +25% crit dmg is nice with current OP hit -> crit conversion, but really it's probably still equivalent to like +10-15% dmg at most on average. Good but not amazing. I would say unbroken and vanilla fighter are very close in power level. Black jacket is worse cause they trade a good passive for a bad one, so maybe they can be a tier lower (but not more, they still have cleave, confident aim and disciplined barrage which are the main OP abilities).

 

Actually Devoted can cover 3 types without penalty, just try Devoted/Monk, you have fist and let's say sword and you have 3 types. Devoted > all other fighter subclasses for sure in this beta version.

[theBalthazar]

Everything depends if Obsidian put x2 immunities or x3 immunities. If not +2 penetration start to becoming an heavy way to overpen and +25 % critical is pretty solid.

 

In fact, we can also reverse the argument. If a devoted use a another weapon, this is not the end of the world. He just lose his bonus tentatively for few battles.

Edited April 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

 

I think people also grossly overestimate the difference between some subclasses.

 

E.g. paladins. Some are better, but 20% extra lash on FoD won't move you a whole tier.

 

And let's say fighters. I agree that they are overall are top tier, but devoted is not really that much better than the rest, mostly more conveinient.

 

E.g. a normal fighter can switch between potentially up to 3 damage types (let's say he has dw spears/dw swords as weapon sets). Also between lower or higher pen weapons. Devoted can't do that without heavy penalties. They would probably want to take a 2 damage types weapon like sword to not get screwed by immunities, which is bit supbar compared to sabres or spears in many situations (and 1 pen lower, so it's already like +1 pen). So +2 pen they get is more like a necessity when you're mostly forced to use one type of weapons. It's nice for monks who want to use fists anyway (and effectively get 2 weapons). You also can't use shield modals, so backup defensive setup is not available. +25% crit dmg is nice with current OP hit -> crit conversion, but really it's probably still equivalent to like +10-15% dmg at most on average. Good but not amazing. I would say unbroken and vanilla fighter are very close in power level. Black jacket is worse cause they trade a good passive for a bad one, so maybe they can be a tier lower (but not more, they still have cleave, confident aim and disciplined barrage which are the main OP abilities).

 

Actually Devoted can cover 3 types without penalty, just try Devoted/Monk, you have fist and let's say sword and you have 3 types. Devoted > all other fighter subclasses for sure in this beta version.

 

I explicitly said about Devoted/Monk as an exception, because they get 1 extra devoted weapon for "free" (which is imo cheesy, they need to just be able to select fists or claws if multiclassing). Yeah in this combo, Devoted is much better. But that's just 1 combo.

 

In all other combos, Devoted is also better, but very slightly so.

 

Everything depends if Obsidian put x2 immunities or x3 immunities. If not +2 penetration start to becoming an heavy way to overpen and +25 % critical is pretty solid.

 

In fact, we can also reverse the argument. If a devoted use a another weapon, this is not the end of the world. He just lose his bonus tentatively for few battles.

 

Well, even if you use swords to cover 2 dmg types you already lose 1 pen to sabres and spears. And being able to attack the lowest enemy resist also translates to some effective +pen. So in the end it's less than 2 pen for the most part in practice as long as you're not too lazy to pay attention to enemy resists and use different weapons. +25% critical dmg is good, but not that great to move you up a tier. As I said, it's maybe like +10% dmg on average. And, when using other weapons you not only lose the bonus but take a pretty heavy acc penalty. So it's not like you can just as easily switch to another weapon as other fighters (but in some cases, you'll have to).

 

Devout is also great from laziness perspective though, cause unless I'm having my ass handled to me I couldn't be bothered to check the enemy armor or switch weapons.

Edited April 6, 2018 by MadDemiurg