Guns feel too fast in POE2

[Novem]

In my opinion (note that in my time with the beta I've only used the Arquebus so I don't know if other guns have been effected), I don't like how fast guns have been made. They feel at least to me faster than they did in the first game and I'd actually like this change reverted. In the first game, I really liked how firearms played a unique niche in combat. They were incredibly slow, but they did a lot of damage when you fired and most importantly they had a much better chance of interrupting the enemy. I understand that due to the theme of the game, you want guns to feel more powerful (especially considering that they were underpowered in the first game), but I don't want that to be done in a way that makes guns feel like bows.

 

If you want to make guns more powerful, I think that numbers should be adjusted to further develop the niche of firearms. That would be, high damage, high interruption rate, and also maybe high accuracy. Making them fast actually in my opinion invalidates the fantasy of using a gun rather than deepening it.

 

I'd like to know other people's opinions on this matter. I'm not too deep in on the actual balance stuff (I also only used the Arquebus) so I'm not sure whether or not I'm on the right track on this issue. But I do think that in my opinion, the bow should be fast firing and more DPS-oriented, while firearms should be more directed to slow, high-impact, and support-oriented.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Novem

[Boeroer]

I don't agree.

[Novem]

According to what I can find on google, reloading a musket takes at least 20 seconds in real life. In POE2, it seems to take about four, maybe five seconds. I understand cutting down on reload speed for gameplay reasons, but I think they've taken it too far. I think firearms should be similar to what they're used for in real life, slow but extremely high-impact. I like the feeling of firearms in Pillars of Eternity 1 because it felt like every shot counted (or, at least, that was the idea). It also, again, differentiated them from bows which had low interruption chance but a much higher fire-rate making them safer and less reliant on strong positioning.

 

So, can you please elaborate on your disagreement a bit? I don't see what I'm wrong about here.

 

Honestly in my opinion the minimum reload speed should be 8, maybe 7 seconds (that's stretching it) for guns to feel realistic. Right now it doesn't feel like I'm being punished for re-positioning during reload much if at all, and the shots don't seem to have as much of an impact either. Firearms had a unique role in the first game that they don't seem to have in Pillars 2.

 

Considering the importance of lengthy spellcasting in POE2, it also would make that niche they filled more noticeable. I would prefer if they pushed them more in the direction they were taking in POE1, rather than pulling back on it like they have and robbing the firearms of what I felt was their identity.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Novem

[Boeroer]

According to what I can find on Google there are no hats in real life that can speed up you reloading nor can a nice song speed up your reloading. So much for the realism.

 

Combat speed is faster in Deadfire so maybe that's why you think they reload so much faster. That's not my impression though. I'm just running around with a ranger/Chanter with that 20% reload hat, gunner + sure Ila and shooting my arquebus or even dual pistols with modal still takes enough time to make a war bow be better. Also, DEX no longer speeds up reloading as it used to in PoE1.

 

By the way guns in PoE1 were terrible interruptors.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Boeroer

[Novem]

Was the sarcasm really necessary?

 

Anyways, the combat speed isn't faster in Deadfire. Obsidian went into developing this game with the intention of slowing the combat enough that slow mode wasn't necessary. The combat isn't faster, they just made the reload speed faster. Anyways, just because something else is better doesn't mean one thing isn't really good. That seems more like an argument to nerf War Bows than to buff firearms. And even if it was, again I think that if you're going to buff firearms, it should be done in such a way that deepens their niche. More damage, more interrupt, more accuracy. Not faster reload speed.

 

By the way, you should also realize that the existence of such a fast reload speed makes those buffs to your reload speed actually worse. If guns were balanced around a longer reload time, those items would be more effective since percentages scale upwards in effectiveness. In fact, I'd say that your argument ultimately actually supports mine, because if reload speed is so fast already that using all of those items in combination doesn't produce a noticeable enough effect for them feeling powerful and significant, then that investment feels worse by it's very nature.

 

I didn't know that last part. Must be my faulty memory, my bad. I'd like it if they did do that though as I think that would fit with them thematically, seeing as a gunshot hits with so much force that it would distract a person more than an arrow (even more so if it breaks into shrapnel). Especially against armor where that increased force distributed across a greater surface area would create a much stronger effect.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Novem

[Boeroer]

Was the sarcasm really necessary?

No, you are right. I apologize. I didn't have enough sleep last night now I am a bit grumpy.

 

Of course the combat speed is faster. Didn't you read all the complaints about ho fast it is? In PoE1 combat was forced to normal speed if you had fast speed enabled. In Deadfire it stays at fast. Everything looks like a Benny Hill show then. But even if you trigger normal mode manually in combat it feels faster then in PoE1.

 

By the way, you should also realize that the existence of such a fast reload speed makes those buffs to your reload speed actually worse. If guns were balanced around a longer reload time, those items would be more effective since percentages scale upwards in effectiveness. In fact, I'd say that your argument ultimately actually supports mine, because if reload speed is so fast already that using all of those items in combination doesn't produce a noticeable enough effect for them feeling powerful and significant, then that investment feels worse by it's very nature.

So it's better for a gun user to have a longer base reload of 1000 frames and reduce it by 20% (resulting in 800 frames) than having 500 frames and reducing it by 20% (=400 frames) because your get more out of it? More what? You spare more frames but you are still a lot slower. Not really a win situation for the gun user who spared more frames with the talent. Because those "spared" frames don't buy you anything.

 

 

I didn't do framecounts but to me it doesn't feel like the reloading is so much faster if you compare encounters (at normal game speed in both games).

Edited November 20, 2017 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

Are you firing once and then swapping to another weapon, or are you reloading?

 

My Devoted/Shattered Pillar Fighter Monk is stupidly good with an Arquebus. Starting combat with an aimed shot that gets +20 accuracy at the cost of a slower reload that isn't going to occur anyway is just great. It even benefits from Devoted for a total of 13 penetration, plus as a Fighter I get grazes as well.

 

Slowing down reload and making the damage bigger would be unbalanced for anyone like me who just fires once and then grabs another weapon.

[Boeroer]

I would build a Black Jacket/cipher then and cycle guns all the time I guess.

[Novem]

@Boeroer:

 

All gucci my friend.

 

But they said from the very beginning of development that they wanted to make the game slower. So why would they make the game faster in it's very first iteration? I haven't heard anyone argue it's faster than POE1, just that they want slow mode back because it feels too fast.

 

Yes it's better if the gun is balanced for that reload speed. Yes, your reload speed is longer, but not only is the reduction on reload speed greater the longer the cooldown goes, if it's balanced to be more powerful because of that cooldown extension you are ultimately getting greater impact from the weapon. You're focusing too much on the reload speed, and not enough on the actual damage and impact of the shot.

 

I play POE1 in slow mode and it seems noticeably faster to me, incredibly so even.

 

@KDubya:

 

I'm reloading.

 

Isn't there a penalty for switching weapons mid-combat? If that mechanic is not discouraging that type of behavior, then that's a problem with the weapon switch penalty. Of course, I don't even think that's a bad thing anyways. As long as you still need to reload the weapon if you switch back to it, I seriously doubt firing one shot is going to be winning you fights or something. I could be wrong of course. This is just my perspective.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Novem

[Nail]

They just should add auto rifles

[Boeroer]

Fighters can get Quick Switch and an additional Weapon Slot (Black Jacket only). So making a Black Jacket Sharpshooter could be a powerful thing. 

[KDubya]

@Boeroer:

 

All gucci my friend.

 

But they said from the very beginning of development that they wanted to make the game slower. So why would they make the game faster in it's very first iteration? I haven't heard anyone argue it's faster than POE1, just that they want slow mode back because it feels too fast.

 

Yes it's better if the gun is balanced for that reload speed. Yes, your reload speed is longer, but not only is the reduction on reload speed greater the longer the cooldown goes, if it's balanced to be more powerful because of that cooldown extension you are ultimately getting greater impact from the weapon. You're focusing too much on the reload speed, and not enough on the actual damage and impact of the shot.

 

I play POE1 in slow mode and it seems noticeably faster to me, incredibly so even.

 

@KDubya:

 

I'm reloading.

 

Isn't there a penalty for switching weapons mid-combat? If that mechanic is not discouraging that type of behavior, then that's a problem with the weapon switch penalty. Of course, I don't even think that's a bad thing anyways. As long as you still need to reload the weapon if you switch back to it, I seriously doubt firing one shot is going to be winning you fights or something. I could be wrong of course. This is just my perspective.

 

 That first shot from stealth could be like 30-40 points of damage. Give Arquebus to all five guys and you can drop a guy or two. Starting the fight by killing the enemy mage or priest is a pretty strong opener. In the time it takes for the enemy to run up on you you'll have swapped to your main weapon. Alpha striking with Flames of Devotion and an Arquebus is what makes Paladins great

 

Also considering that you get -10 deflection if attacked while holding an arquebus it seems like a good idea to put it away as soon as you've fired.

 

The penalty to switch weapons is time but you have enough time during the enemies approach to melee range.

[Novem]

Ah I see, I see.

[dunehunter]

Fighters can get Quick Switch and an additional Weapon Slot (Black Jacket only). So making a Black Jacket Sharpshooter could be a powerful thing. 

 

Some problem with Black Jack now is that even you swap from same type of weapon to same type, for example, arquebus to arquebus, your model is canceled and you need to reactivate it again, which I find is super annoying which I try the Black Jack.

[FreeKaner]

I do also think guns should keep their niche as a burst and an alpha strike weapon with high damage, they should also perhaps also get high interrupt and interrupt rate over PoE1. I don't think tuning them down to bow standard is a good change, I don't think guns need to compete with bows DPS wise if they have a clear purpose.

[hilfazer]

I want guns to fill a niche they were supposed to fill - fighting mages with Arcane Veil. I want xbows to be a little better than guns except when fighting mages with Arcane Veil, when guns would be much better.

 

That's not gonna happen since guns fanboys are many while xbow fanboys are few

[Boeroer]

Crossbow now interrupts. It's neat to take away spells from casters.

[dam]

Bro, guns also have 3 meters range...

 

Hating guns so far, absolute garbage.

Reload time, can miss (well duh), extremely short range...

[dam]

Crossbow now interrupts. It's neat to take away spells from casters.

 

 

Unless I am mistaken, an interrupt only resets their cast time, as opposed to wasting the spell ?

[Ganrich]

 

Crossbow now interrupts. It's neat to take away spells from casters.

 

 

 

Unless I am mistaken, an interrupt only resets their cast time, as opposed to wasting the spell ?

No, interrupts now cause the spell to be used. So, if your Priest is interrupted while casting Circle of Protection and you only have one cast per encounter of third level spells... now you have no more third level spells. As long as enemies have the same limits on casting as you and your party (which I believe they do based on my limited testing) you can effectively shut an enemy caster down. Crossbows are incredibly good in Deadfire because of their modal. Definitely a weapon to consider in any ranged/interrupt build.

[dam]

 

 

Crossbow now interrupts. It's neat to take away spells from casters.

 

 

Unless I am mistaken, an interrupt only resets their cast time, as opposed to wasting the spell ?

No, interrupts now cause the spell to be used. So, if your Priest is interrupted while casting Circle of Protection and you only have one cast per encounter of third level spells... now you have no more third level spells. As long as enemies have the same limits on casting as you and your party (which I believe they do based on my limited testing) you can effectively shut an enemy caster down. Crossbows are incredibly good in Deadfire because of their modal. Definitely a weapon to consider in any ranged/interrupt build.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

 

Makes the Spell Steal... spell (duh) all the more powerful, if you can get it off.

 

Unlimited casts, interrupt this

 

Sure, you don't know what spells you're going to get, but you do know you're gonna be able to spam them so, #worth