Elemental damage boosting talents: Worth it just for lashes?

[Lampros]

Are elemental damaging boosting talents like Scion of Flame worth it, even just to combine with corresponding lashes - and if you do not have a specialized class builds that take advantage of them? For instance, are they worth it on just a normal melee Fighter or ranged Rogue?

[MaxQuest]

For a rogue I'd say definitely.

Let's say you made a swing and rolled 50 preDR damage.

 

Without talent:

- you deal: [50 - targetedDR] + (50 - lashDR)/4

With talent:

- you deal: [50 - targetedDR] + (1.25 * 50 - lashDR)/4

 

If we assume that targeted by lash DR is the same as the one targeted by weapon, and:

- [DR=0]: 62.5 => 65.625 | i.e. 5% increase

- [DR=10]: 50 => 53.125  | i.e. 6.25% increase

- [DR=20]: 37.5 => 40.625  | i.e. 8.33% increase

- [DR=50]: 10 (min) => 13.125  | i.e. 31.25% increase

- [DR=65]: 10 (min) => 10.000  | i.e. 0% increase

 

 

> The good thing: elemental talents boost your lash which is a multiplicative bonus damage, and if you have a high enough damage coefficient has potential to result in higher damage increase than let's say from ApprenticeSneakAttack talent.

> The bad thing: elemental lash does not deal 'min' damage and can be completely mitigated by DR (and afaik lash also does not benefit from DR bypass stuff) (although so far as you are attacking low-DR targets you are good)

Edited October 2, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

That depends on the damage bonuses you can stack. Since lashes are multiplicative damage bonuses they work better and better the more damage your physical attack does. But Scion of Flame and the others will only add 5% to the lash damage. So you would have to stack a lot of dmg bonuses so that Scion of Flame for a lash only gets better than let's say Two Handed Style.

 

Example:

plain Great Sword with 10 MIG and burning lash against 0 DR

17 slash + (17 * 0.25) = 4.25 burn. 17 + 4.25 = 21.25

With Scion of Flame

17 slash + (17 * 0.3) = 5.1 burn. 17 + 5.1 = 22.1

 

Now instead Scion of Flame I'll take Two Weapon Style:

17 slash * (1+0.15) = 19.55 slash + (19.55 * 0.25) = 4.89 burn. 19.55 + 4.89 = 24.44

 

The difference is 2.34 - Two Handed Style is clearly better.

 

 

Now let's assume we have a fighter with 18 MIG, Weapon Spec and Mastery + Savage Attack and an exceptional weapon:

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.3) = 33.83 slash + (33.83 * 0.25) = 8.46 burn. 33.83 + 8.46 = 42.29

With Scion of Flame

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.3) = 33.83 slash + (33.83 * 0.3) = 10.15 burn. 33.83 + 10.15 = 43.98

With Two Weapon Style

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.3+0,15) = 36.38 slash + (36.38 * 0.25) = 9.1 burn. 36.38 + 9.1 = 45.48

 

The difference is 1.5. Two Weapon Style is still better but the gap closes (keep in mind this is vs. 0 DR)

 

Now the same fighter with a superb weapon - and he does a crit:

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.45+0.5) = 44.88 slash + (44.88 * 0.25) = 11.22 burn. 44.88 + 11.22 = 56.1

With Scion of Flame

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.45+0.5+0.15) = 44.88 slash + (44.88 * 0.3) = 13,46 burn. 44.88 + 13,46 = 58.34

With Two Weapon Style

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.45+0.5+0.15) = 47.43 slash + (47.43 * 0,25) = 11.86 burn. 47.43 + 11.86 = 59.29

 

The difference is 0.95.

 

You can see that at some point Scion of Flame would be better than Two Handed Style, but it's a long way. Maybe for a rogue it's more benefical to choose Scion of Flame instead of a base damage bonus like Two Handed Style at some point. But you always have to remember that lashes have to overcome 1/4 of enemies' DR and that means that the higher the DR the worse the bonus of Scion of FLame is compared to Two Handed Style.

 

For classes with only few damage bonuses I thik it's save to say that they are better off with a base damage bonus than with a 5% lash increase.

 

Of course it's best if you can do both. If you have a level up - and no base damgage bonus talents left - you can take an elemental talent and boost your damge further.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

It's correct that lashes don't benefit from DR bypass MaxQuest.

 

P.S.: you ninja!

Edited October 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

For a rogue I'd say definitely.

Let's say you made a swing and rolled 50 preDR damage.

 

Without talent:

- you deal: [50 - targetedDR] + (50 - lashDR)/4

With talent:

- you deal: [50 - targetedDR] + (1.25 * 50 - lashDR)/4

 

If we assume that targeted by lash DR is the same as the one targeted by weapon, and:

- [DR=0]: 62.5 => 65.625 | i.e. 5% increase

- [DR=10]: 50 => 53.125  | i.e. 6.25% increase

- [DR=20]: 37.5 => 40.625  | i.e. 8.33% increase

- [DR=50]: 10 (min) => 13.125  | i.e. 31.25% increase

- [DR=65]: 10 (min) => 10.000  | i.e. 0% increase

 

 

> The good thing: elemental talents boost your lash which is a multiplicative bonus damage, and if you have a high enough damage coefficient has potential to result in higher damage increase than let's say from ApprenticeSneakAttack talent.

> The bad thing: elemental lash does not deal 'min' damage and can be completely mitigated by DR (and afaik lash also does not benefit from DR bypass stuff) (although so far as you are attacking low-DR targets you are good)

 

Would this be the case for a ranged Rogue as well? I would not consider a Rogue unless he were Ranged. (I guess I would consider a Tall Grass melee Rogue, but then I see Barbarian superior with a Tall Grass - if I am not using a Tall Grass Chanter for some reason.)

 

 

That depends on the damage bonuses you can stack. Since lashes are multiplicative damage bonuses they work better and better the more damage your physical attack does. But Scion of Flame and the others will only add 5% to the lash damage. So you would have to stack a lot of dmg bonuses so that Scion of Flame for a lash only gets better than let's say Two Handed Style.

 

Example:

plain Great Sword with 10 MIG and burning lash against 0 DR

17 slash + (17 * 0.25) = 4.25 burn. 17 + 4.25 = 21.25

With Scion of Flame

17 slash + (17 * 0.3) = 5.1 burn. 17 + 5.1 = 22.1

 

Now instead Scion of Flame I'll take Two Weapon Style:

17 slash * (1+0.15) = 19.55 slash + (19.55 * 0.25) = 4.89 burn. 19.55 + 4.89 = 24.44

 

The difference is 2.34 - Two Handed Style is clearly better.

 

 

Now let's assume we have a fighter with 18 MIG, Weapon Spec and Mastery + Savage Attack and an exceptional weapon:

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.3) = 33.83 slash + (33.83 * 0.25) = 8.46 burn. 33.83 + 8.46 = 42.29

With Scion of Flame

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.3) = 33.83 slash + (33.83 * 0.3) = 10.15 burn. 33.83 + 10.15 = 43.98

With Two Weapon Style

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.3+0,15) = 36.38 slash + (36.38 * 0.25) = 9.1 burn. 36.38 + 9.1 = 45.48

 

The difference is 1.5. Two Weapon Style is still better but the gap closes (keep in mind this is vs. 0 DR)

 

Now the same fighter with a superb weapon - and he does a crit:

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.45+0.5) = 44.88 slash + (44.88 * 0.25) = 11.22 burn. 44.88 + 11.22 = 56.1

With Scion of Flame

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.45+0.5+0.15) = 44.88 slash + (44.88 * 0.3) = 13,46 burn. 44.88 + 13,46 = 58.34

With Two Weapon Style

17 slash * (1+0.24+0.15+0.1+0.2+0.45+0.5+0.15) = 47.43 slash + (47.43 * 0,25) = 11.86 burn. 47.43 + 11.86 = 59.29

 

The difference is 0.95.

 

You can see that at some point Scion of Flame would be better than Two Handed Style, but it's a long way. Maybe for a rogue it's more benefical to choose Scion of Flame instead of a base damage bonus like Two Handed Style at some point. But you always have to remember that lashes have to overcome 1/4 of enemies' DR and that means that the higher the DR the worse the bonus of Scion of FLame is compared to Two Handed Style.

 

For classes with only few damage bonuses I thik it's save to say that they are better off with a base damage bonus than with a 5% lash increase.

 

Of course it's best if you can do both. If you have a level up - and no base damgage bonus talents left - you can take an elemental talent and boost your damge further.

 

Thanks. I have a much better picture now.

[mosspit]

Nice calculations. In this situation, I would probably pick up Spirit of Decay only just for Bittercut with Corrosive Lash for its unique dmg nature. Also have done so in practice.

[Elric Galad]

I was wondering the same and I found this thread.

 

A couple of things to consider :

 

1 - Elemental talents also add 5 DR against this element. It is not great by itself but it adds up on the bright side

2 - It works with every weapons and style provided they have the right lash. So if you plan a guns + melee build, you have a way to buff both.

3 - It works also with Scrolls and Spell binding. It should be added especially if you plan to use a couple of items such as Deadfire Belt. Martial classes are often good at using them.

 

 

So I would say about non-vancian classes (not taking into account Bittercut / Stormcaller) :

 

Paladin : Pick Scion of Flames anyway because of Immolation and FoD

 

Chanter : Consider picking one for scrolls, or maybe Ice talent for Seven Nights (even if you don't plan to use it a lot).

 

Cipher : Consider picking depending on your spells. Maybe Corrosive talent because of Antipathetic field ? Ciphers don't have tons of Elemental spells. Might not worth it.

 

Rogue : Consider picking one if you go guns + melee and/or plan to use scrolls items such as the fireball scimitar. Rogue tends to use damage spells from items/scrolls due to Deathblows so it would be slightly better for them than for fighters.

You might even plan a "Sorcerer's Apprentice" style build using all items with fire damages and even Firebrand.

 

Fighter : Same as Rogue but lower priority. Disciplined Barrage + scrolls / items is quite good, but one might prefer using Crowd Control spells with it.

 

Ranger : Probably a filler talent, but I'm not sure Ranger has so much room for filler talent due to all pet and ranged talents he should pick first.

 

Barbarian :  Same as Ranger.

 

Monk : Do you plan to use... weapons ??? Monk lashes come from abilities that might not be always up, contrary to lashes. Probably not worthes it except maybe for Turning wheel specialized build.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Elric Galad

[MasterCipher]

I always run a chanter with chant that adds a 25% flame lash. Lash talents add 5% to to this. If you choose scion of flame you get 5% + 5% = 10% to base damage, which I find useful for any character in my opinion with high base damage weapon or spell attacks, especially if they're fire based.

[Boeroer]

What do you mean?

 

Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr: only a char who gets the additional burning lash and has Scion of Flame will have a 30% burning lash. Scion of Flame on the chanter does not increase the burning lash on others, only on the lash he gets for himself. So there would be no +10% to Aefyllath's lashes if thechanter and the "wearer" have both Scion of Flame but only +5% if the "wearer" has Scion of Flame. At least that was the case last time I checked. May have changed of course.

 

Also, with Spark the Soul of the Righteous only characters who have Heart of the Storm will deal +20% shock damage with it. If the preist has Heart of the Storm it doesn't raise the damage for the shocks the other party members emmanate - only his own.

[Boeroer]

Just did a quick test in game and it still is as I described above. Only the Scion of Flame on the recipient works for Mith Fyr, not the one of the chanter (the one of the chanter works for his own received lash only).

[Elric Galad]

I suppose that he means that if a character has a chanter in his group using Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr and a weapon where you can add a flame lash, it worthes taking Scion of flame for this character, even if he doesn't have any other fire based ability.

 

This is true for the chanter himself or any other character of the chanter's group.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Ah! Now I get it.

[Ensign]

In general they are worse than the obvious damage boosters (weapon focus, apprentice's sneak attack, one/two handed/weapon style) but on par with the situational toggles like penetrating and savage attack.  See above for more details, and calculate it out yourself across cases if you like, but as a rule of thumb treat it as a lower variance toggle.