Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?

[Dr <3]

I think yes, but don't have exact numbers. Also you have to consider if buffs are allowed or not, since Aefyllath or champions boon have much more efficacy on druid compared to rogue ( higher base dmg )

[Lampros]

I think yes, but don't have exact numbers. Also you have to consider if buffs are allowed or not, since Aefyllath or champions boon have much more efficacy on druid compared to rogue ( higher base dmg )

 

A pure newb question: Elemental damage buffs like Aefyllath require you to have some sort of (same) elemental damage to begin with, right? That is, I assume if you are doing 0 fire damage, adding a percentage fire buff to it will still result in 0 fire damage?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Lampros

[JerekKruger]

A pure newb question: Elemental damage buffs like Aefyllath require you to have some sort of (same) elemental damage to begin with, right? That is, I assume if you are doing 0 fire damage, adding a percentage fire buff to it will still result in 0 fire damage?

 

No, they make you do an additional 25% damage as fire. So if you would usually hit an enemy for 20 slashing damage, say, would you instead hit them for 20 slashing damage and 5 burning damage. The burning damage has to go past 25% of the enemy's burn DR.

 

What's really good about this (and other lashes) is that this isn't 25% of your weapon's base damage, it's 25% of the damage you do after all other modifiers are added. To illustrate this suppose you have a character wielding a two-handed sword who has the Two-Handed Style and Savage Attacks talents and is under the effect of Aefyllath. For simplicity we'll assume they roll a 17 for their base damage (the average value):

• With two-handed style this increases to 17*1.15 = 19.55 damage.
• With Savage Attack you might think it increases further to 19.55*1.2 = 23.46, but it doesn't. Instead it increases to 17*(1+0.15+0.2) = 22.95
• However with Aefyllath (and all other lashes) the 25% extra damage is applied after all other modifiers, doing an additional 22.95*0.25 = 5.74 damage.

If that's not clear it's because I haven't explained it very well, however long story short: lashes are better than other damage increases.

[Boeroer]

Exactly. That's what makes lashes so powerful compared to base damage modifiers. But it also depends on DR. But generally speaking a 50% lash is more powerful than a 50% base damage bonus. The best thing is of course when you can combine both: base damage bonus will also increase lash damage. Imagine a rogue with Sneak, Deathblows AND Flames of Devotion or Turning Wheel or 50% Wildstrike lash. You can see this synergy very well when a rogue uses Tidefall...

The druid and the rogue might be on par without Avenging Storm if you only look at melee damage and put aside buffs from other party members. The druid might hit harder, but his ACC is rel. bad in comparison to the rogues'. Maybe at 0 recovery the rogue does a bit more, especially with Tidefall? Can't say... But this "strict" melee comparison is quite pointless because the druid will use spells like Relentless Storm, Calling the World's Maw or Embrace the Earth-Talon, why shouldn't he? To be honest it's a bit unfair that the druid does so much single target damage AND can use his spells. He should either be unable to cast while shifted or do less. Or the rogue should get more useful abilities - not necessarily dps tools, just something useful. Why doesn't he get some sort of AoE CC or Deathblows Trigger with Smoke Cloud or Persistent Distraction, why isn't he allowed to enter stealth again in combat with Shadow Step, why on earth is Fearsome Strike 1/rest while Heart of Fury and Charge are 1 or even 2/encounter? Why are Shadowing Beyond and Finishing Blow not 1/encounter? Why can't you cancel the prone phase of Feign Death? The druid turns into a roguelike shredding machine for 20 seconds - after he casts a Relentless Storm that turns everybody into shaky meatsacks... It's not fair. But hey! This is no campaign to nerf the druid!

Edited September 15, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

 

A pure newb question: Elemental damage buffs like Aefyllath require you to have some sort of (same) elemental damage to begin with, right? That is, I assume if you are doing 0 fire damage, adding a percentage fire buff to it will still result in 0 fire damage?

 

No, they make you do an additional 25% damage as fire. So if you would usually hit an enemy for 20 slashing damage, say, would you instead hit them for 20 slashing damage and 5 burning damage. The burning damage has to go past 25% of the enemy's burn DR.

 

What's really good about this (and other lashes) is that this isn't 25% of your weapon's base damage, it's 25% of the damage you do after all other modifiers are added. To illustrate this suppose you have a character wielding a two-handed sword who has the Two-Handed Style and Savage Attacks talents and is under the effect of Aefyllath. For simplicity we'll assume they roll a 17 for their base damage (the average value):

• With two-handed style this increases to 17*1.15 = 19.55 damage.
• With Savage Attack you might think it increases further to 19.55*1.2 = 23.46, but it doesn't. Instead it increases to 17*(1+0.15+0.2) = 22.95
• However with Aefyllath (and all other lashes) the 25% extra damage is applied after all other modifiers, doing an additional 22.95*0.25 = 5.74 damage.

If that's not clear it's because I haven't explained it very well, however long story short: lashes are better than other damage increases.

 

 

Exactly. That's what makes lashes so powerful compared to base damage modifiers. But it also depends on DR. But generally speaking a 50% lash is more powerful than a 50% base damage bonus. The best thing is of course when you can combine both: base damage bonus will also increase lash damage. Imagine a rogue with Sneak, Deathblows AND Flames of Devotion or Turning Wheel or 50% Wildstrike lash. You can see this synergy very well when a rogue uses Tidefall...

 

The druid and the rogue might be on par without Avenging Storm if you only look at melee damage and put aside buffs from other party members. The druid might hit harder, but his ACC is rel. bad in comparison to the rogues'. Maybe at 0 recovery the rogue does a bit more, especially with Tidefall? Can't say... But this "strict" melee comparison is quite pointless because the druid will use spells like Relentless Storm, Calling the World's Maw or Embrace the Earth-Talon, why shouldn't he? To be honest it's a bit unfair that the druid does so much single target damage AND can use his spells. He should either be unable to cast while shifted or do less. Or the rogue should get more useful abilities - not necessarily dps tools, just something useful. Why doesn't he get some sort of AoE CC or Deathblows Trigger with Smoke Cloud or Persistent Distraction, why isn't he allowed to enter stealth again in combat with Shadow Step, why on earth is Fearsome Strike 1/rest while Heart of Fury and Charge are 1 or even 2/encounter? Why are Shadowing Beyond and Finishing Blow not 1/endurance? Why can't you cancel the prone phase of Feign Death? The druid turns into a roguelike shredding machine for 20 seconds - after he casts a Relentless Storm that turns everybody into shaky meatsacks... It's not fair. But hey! This is no campaign to nerf the druid!

 

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation!

[Kaylon]

I made a chart showing rogue and ranger+wolf dps (as describied in my previous posts) with their base accuracy vs various combination of DR/deflection. On top is the rogue dps - green means he outdps the ranger. On the bottom is the ranger+pet dps - blue means he outdps the rogue. Increased accuracy (either because of enemies deflection debuffs from afflictions or various buffs) will shift the tables to the right helping more the ranger because of his higher base damage.

RogueVSRanger.pdf

Edited September 26, 2017 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

Cool!

 

But... am I stupid or is the png too small to read the numbers? Or maybe both?

 

This is with Tidefall I presume?

 

Would be nice to see this with dual Bittercut...

Edited September 26, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Cool!

 

But... am I stupid or is the png too small to read the numbers? Or maybe both?

 

This is with Tidefall I presume?

 

Would be nice to see this with dual Bittercut...

I thought it was possible to zoom it if you save the image but it doesn't work...  I will do also rogue dual Bittercut vs  Dawn in Spring.

 

Rogue with the same bonuses as above, but tis time 2xDrawn in Spring(top) vs 2x Bittercut (bottom). Blue means Drawn in Spring will outdps Bittercut. 

dvsb.pdf

Edited September 26, 2017 by Kaylon

[Blades of Vanatar]

I was able to zoom in. Probably the device. I'm on my PC with Adobe Pro.

[Kaylon]

I was able to zoom in. Probably the device. I'm on my PC with Adobe Pro.

I tried first with a png file and it was impossible to zoom, then I changed it to pdf...

[Boeroer]

ROFL for Drawn in Spring vs. Bittercut.

 

Yeah that thing is real nice. If it didn't come so late... I also like it on a fighter.

 

I meant ranger with Persistence vs. dual Bittercut rogue by the way. That would be interesting because it was the initial claim.

But that's not an order or something.

I hope you just have to fill some variables?

Edited September 26, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

ROFL for Drawn in Spring vs. Bittercut.

 

Yeah that thing is real nice. If it didn't come so late... I also like it on a fighter.

 

I meant ranger with Persistence vs. dual Bittercut rogue by the way. That would be interesting because it was the initial claim.

But that's not an order or something.

I hope you just have to fill some variables?

Well, you can always compare the ranger's dps with any of the other two... But dual wield will be always behind because it's just 1h dps with 0% recovery. Maybe I will make a comparison without alacrity and without resting bonuses and see which one comes on top.

[Kaylon]

Here's the Persistence ranger (top) VS dual Bittercut rogue (bottom) comparison (without buffs - no alacrity/resting bonuses/etc). With 2xDrawn in Spring the rogue has an even greater advantage. Of course this is with 0% armor recovery for both - realistic for the ranger, but harder to manage for the rogue. 

ranger vs rogue.pdf

[Boeroer]

I'm curious: is the pet included?

 

The numbers are not that far apart - so I guess adding/leaving out the pet would result in a substantial shift of green/blue?

Edited October 1, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

I'm curious: is the pet included?

 

The numbers are not that far apart - so I guess adding/leaving out the pet would result in a substantial shift of green/blue?

Yes, the ranger is with the pet. Without alacrity DW is king because of the way speed stacks and affects DPS (multiplicative and non linear).

Edited October 1, 2017 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

Sure - without speed buffs (like Outlander's Frenzy or potion or Angio's Gambeson, Behold the Martyr/Vengeful Grief or other stuff that brings you near 0 recovery with a two handed weapon) dual wielding is great. Even with buffs I like it because you might use Vulnerable Attack and/or thicker armor.

 

But as you already said: the theoretical damage output of melee should be higher than ranged because you

a) have to move a lot which lowers damage output over the course of an encounter and b) you put yourself in danger

 

There is other stuff, too: the rogue can have several Full Attacks per encounter which will contribute to his damage. With Shadow Step, Escape and Boots of Speed he can lower that damage loss. But it's difficult to factor in - like the effect of armor (slower speed but less knockouts) on dps.

 

On the other hand a ranger could deliver two Wounding Shots with guns that would also result in a spike of damage - his damage increase because of Stunning Shots is hard to determine and so on.

 

I like the colors you put there - but the downside is that at first look it seems that the rogue does a lot more (theoretical) damage. But in this case the numbers are relatively close to each other A small change of damage would result in a substantial shift of the "break even line", what do you think?

 

Still I like this comparison and the work you put in. It looks great and is very informative.

 

I think with MaxQuest's mod that lets you count ALL damage a character does it is possible to determine the "real" differences in damage potential over the whole game (for your own playstyle only though). But you'd have to do a complete playthrough in order to get the results.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Boeroer

[Dr <3]

Where can i find maxquest's mod?

[firkraag888]

That's funny. When you play the game as both a ranger or a rogue you definately " get a feel" that when a rogue locks down an opponent he noticeably kills enemies quicker and easier then a ranger. Maybe it's because of the afflictions the rogue applies, I also swear that he crits a lot more, also those crits give greater durations for the afflictions.

 

I no rangers get stunning shots but I still swear that rogues kill quicker and easier.

[Boeroer]

I don't doubt that in general. It's just that they have to run all over the place to get there. I mean melee rogues. I like it a lot how they can switch off casters and such as soon as they reach them (and don't collapse on the way - which is a problem that gets better with levels).

Edited October 1, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

Where can i find maxquest's mod?

 

His posts

[Boeroer]

Look at his signature - the links are there.

[Dr <3]

Damn i browse only with the phone, signatures doesn't exist in my life

[Boeroer]

Ah, ok. Here you go:
 
PoE1 useful stuff: attack speed calculator, unofficial patch mod, attack speed mechanics, dot mechanics, modals exclusivity rules

[Phenomenum]

Nice topic. I'm curious - what about 2x Drawn in Spring vs 2x Resolution, including Durgan steel + Merciless Hand, which leads to total 1,6 crit mult on sabres? Which weapon will be best against moderate high (15-20) DR in rogues hands?

[Boeroer]

Drawn in Spring.

 

Annihilation on a sabre only adds 6.75 of damage on crit on average. This is always the case no matter the enchanetments, because the additional 0.5 crit damage mod is only applied to the base damage of the sabre (11-16 -> average of 13.5). It's only an additive damage bonus. Another thing that sabres have is that theyare sharp, which adds 2.7 damage compared to Drawn in Spring.

 

Wounding on the other hand is caculated based on the actual damage roll (including all damage mods like Sneak Attack, Deathblows, MIG, enchantments and so on - pre DR!). It's multiplicative and comes as raw damage. And it gets further boosted by MIG bonus.

Daggers have an average base damage of 11(9-13). Without any damage bonus wounding would only add 2.75 damage. But now add superb (+45%), Sneak Attack (+50%),  Deathblows (+100%) and a crit with Durgan Steel + Merciless Hand + Dungeon Delver (+90%): the damage climbs from 11 to 42.35. Now wounding gets calculated and is 10.59. That's higher than the annihilation of the sabres. Now add the fact that daggers are faster than sabres and that MIG will boost wounding damage: with 20 MIG it would be 14.84.

 

I will put the damage calcs of both side by side (I'm using 20 MIG, superb, crit with Durgan Steel, Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver, Sneak Attack and Deathblows):

Annihilating sabre on crit: 65.48

Drawn in Spring on crit: 59.51

 

Looks less, but now you'd have to look at the attacks speed. In 500 frames with 10 DEX and no speed bonuses sabre would deal 451,59 (all crits!) and Drawn in Spring would deal 616,05 damage (all crits). Of course it's unlikely that you crit with every strike. And if you don't then annihilation does nothing for you - while wounding would still add damage, even when you graze. So even if you'd crit with 100% of your attacks Drawn in Spring would still be better (with auto attacks).

 

 

Merciless Hand, Durgan Steel and stuff applies to every non-soulbound or summoned weapon and is not exclusive to annihilating sabres.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Boeroer