Help with optimal frontline late game itemization/build

[Lampros]

I think Hours of Rumbaldt is the best choice for the fighter as you don't want to lose Knockdown and since Fighter already has high starting Acc, going for crit should not be a prob at all.

 

Why are pike builds for front-liners so seldom discussed? If you are going to have 3 or more melees, they seem the natural weapons for "excess" melees, given the congestion issues in some fights?

 

Hi there!

 

I played more then 90% of my runs with a paladin main, including my 3crown solo, and all the runs I played are done at PoTD level at the very least.

 

 

I think that most of the users are not gonna like this, but if u are looking for the best party paladin, this are my 2 cent:

 

- forgive flames of devotion, it's a waste of ability and talents given the poor accuracy and it's totally asinergic with what a paladin is all about. It's decent for solo runs (couz after some levels you can trade off some tankiness to not make fights run FOREVER, but in party you don't need that).

- pick an order with cruel NOT in disfavored behavior, better bleak walkers. Mainly couz u want the extra feat in skael temple, plus rushing cruel it's pretty easy (kill the caravan) for better ez saves. You can leave act 1 with aggressive 3 / cruel 3. Sweet! Plus all talent feats of paladins are garbage enough that they are hardly worth a talent point, with the only exception of Darcozzi, but if you check my cruel point is NOT worth it. If it's not the main char, go with Darcozzi  for +15 accuracy on an ally(easy call)

-take only lay of hands skipping, I repeat, flame of devotions. Also, do NOT take any paladin talent like improved lay of hands (or how it's called) since they aren't worth the talent point.

- play with your shield, since outworn buckler is the most retarded item ever in a party (see itemization part)

 

My last paladin atm at level 7

 

 

Moon godlike (couz Cmon, in a party you have enough heads to don't give up this retarded op race) 

Bleak Walker

 

18 Might

9Con

7Dex ( 10 with ced nua rest)

10Per

19Int

15Ris

 

this is a run with fixed companions, and everybody know they have pretty horrible Dex (wtf durance is the most gimped priest ever, from a min/maxed pow). So my rushed ced nua sleep is +3dex. If u go with your own party, +3might (trash mob) +3 per (bosses) are both better, build stats around that. This is not super min/maxed, but paladins usually don't need to be since they only really need mig/int to work.

 

At level 7 she looks like this:

 

Lay of Hands

Zealous Focus (must)

Liberating Exhortation

Reviving Exhortation

 

Talents

 

Weap and shield

veteran recovery

Superior Deflection

 

After having done basically all acts 2 quests. 

 

Some people don't like pure "tank" characters but god, this saves are retarded.

 

You got an immortal aura char that can ress others at command and later burn enemies overtime and on top of that you benefict from your behavior so much, giving you the feel that you have even more free talents when you pick a paladin.

 

Also, a big plus is that this type of paladin is not really item dependant, aside from that retarded aura small shield right there in chapter 1 (if you want to play a paladin in a party without outworn buckler you are just doing something WRONG, not even kidding), as long as you have 1 ring of overseeing, fenwalkers, +9 all saves ring/mantle and +9 def bracer/ring she is super good to go. So, in this case, this leaved all the space to kana to wear the "sweet" stuff with the old  but gold shot in faith, sainguine plate, fulvan's amulet combo for some "hard hitting" (trying to transform a chanter into a melee DPS it's kinda funny, don't try that at home )

 

Back to outworn buckler point. Guys, this is in my top 5 of the most broken items in the game, I think it's unreal that is never been nerfed. I mean, we pay 1 talent to have +10 to a single save, 1 talent to gain at the very best +6 deflection if we wear a shield. This item gives an aura of 3m +5 to ALL def for ALL your party (combined with ring of overseeing and max INT is easy to play around for everyone, not just frontliners). how in the hell is this item balanced? This is THE reason why I run a paladin in a party, literally.

 

What are you gonna use over this god item? A 2h sword to use flame of devotion? kappa...

 

At the end, you can hybrid her later with bittercut, +25% corrosive flames of devotion talent (taking, ofc, flames of devotion) and spirit of decay. But it's a useless waste of feats no matter what in a party. And again, you don't really want to dual wield or use a 2h weapon to maximaze flames of devotion DPS, since outworn buckler is just THAT good unless you straightly solo run. Still it's a funny way to roleplay a bit your weap and shield cruel pally, I guess.

 

 

Paladin tank, just the best frontliner in the game (especially as a main char) IMO.

 

Hmmm, you are almost persuading me to use my Aragorn as a tank!

 

What poor accuracy with FoD? Paladins have 25 starting accuracy and FoD has +20 accuracy and also +1 accuracy per char level. If you combine it with Sworn Enemy, Weapon Focus and Zealous Focus you will nearly always crit with FoD.

 

FoD + burning lash + Intense Flames + Scion of Flame leads to an additional lash damage of +120% (lash damage, not weapon base damage like Deathblows which is a lot weaker. With Merciless Hand and Firebrand or an arquebus he will deal way over 100 damage per FoD use which will most likely end most dangerous foes like priests or other casters.

 

So I'd say FoD is superhandy - if you don't want to be a turtledin.

 

But then this... Damn, so many options!

[Lampros]

Agreed, Rumbaldt looks like a better choice overall. Plus the party has access to Painful Interdiction, so it will be easier to 'confirm' the overbearing roll.

 

Tidefall can be carried in the second weapon set through, and used vs high-dr/high-fort enemies (mainly eyeless and animats).

Rumbaldt or Godansthuynr for the high Intelligence Fighter? I noticed that both weapons require the same Focus/Specialization!

[limaxophobiacq]

This is more than a little late to the party but discussing good paladin weapons I personally like The Flames of Fair Rhîan (3 fireballs/rest). Given that auto attack damage for paladins isn't really that important and that you're most likely already going for high int, might, and Scion of Flame for Sacred Immolation, your fireballs and potential AoE burst when they're combined with Sacred Immolation can be quite impactfull.

Edited September 28, 2017 by limaxophobiacq

[Torm51]

@Boeroer

 

Why FoTD is handly in a party?

 

 

1 ability + at least 1 talent to have a burst on a char that has, literally, the best shield in game?

 

I pick the best aura ingame (avaible at level 1) and I save a bunch of extra talents and 1 ability, no regret on that in a party. 2 burst /combact VS all res +5 all day long for everyone? In a game that is super dependant from afflictions of any kind? FoTD would be appealing but, for me, the problem is that the other option is just that good and, if devs can't balance they're own game, it's not my fail (super greedy min/maxer pow, be free to hate me for that).

 

 

The only thing that make that buckler feel "balanced" is that it's asinergic with FoTD potential (you can't dual or use a 2h) but, well, that's a FoTD problem, not mine XD

 

 

The only, ONLY, party that I have found fotd usefull is, actually, solo party

 

When fight goes forever you wish to have more damage, especially when you are high level enough to pick sworn enemies and you gain 2 good sabre to use (plus all the items/talents to be, basically, immortal even in PoTD). In party play, I go for the imbaness shield and I'm glad they never nerfed that (or suspicious about in game balance, pick your pow)

 

It's more about an ok burst ability, that to work require extra talents, and a single, let me repeat 1 last time, totally umbalaced item right there to use for no cost aside the off hand slot (lol, it's even the best type of shield, small one xD)

 

Why should I pick the 1st over the latter in a party? I can see myself go for bittercut + shield and some acid FoTD later, but that's only couz my char will be probably so godlike (moon, godlike ) in this 5man run that I will have a bunch of free talents at high levels.

 

Dude all I play is Triple Crown and all of my MC are Paladins. FoD and Lay on Hands are both good but I just did an entire Triple Crown with no Lay on Hands. Passive healing is THE way to go. The only characters LoH is useful on is high Health characters. If a wizard or backline softy needs LoH you are doing it wrong cause they will be dead of Health loss soon. Better to have an escape plan for them so they can avoid damage all together.

 

Also not taking FoD and Sworn Enemy makes you useless offensively until Sacred Immolation. I have had turtle Paladin characters and if you mess up one fight your Paladin will be the last one alive usulessly swinging away at a Caen Gwla and eventually dying (this is before Sacred Immolation).

 

That being said in big dangerous Fights like Dragons FoD is only useful against the Alpine Dragon. I killed him from injured with 2 shots at 198 damage a shot. The Adra Dragon is immune to fire. The flying bog dragon is immune to corrode and fire (lol Bleak Walker) and the ground dragon has a fire DR of 51.Thing is the recovery is SO SLOW on LoH you better heal early or you will not get the heal off and have a knocked out character. I don't get the luxury of recovery bars . I rather just have high passive healing and use FoD to gib Dragon minions who are dangerous (unless it's the Alpine dragon hehehe).

 

 

In conclusion neither are that great against the fights that matter. The most useful ability for Paladins in those fights is something you don't spec for, Your bad ass defenses. Also auras +6 ACC in a dragon fight on PoTD is a big deal. Zealous Charge will let the entire party create distance and buff while the slow dragon chases.

 

I'm getting both this time around.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Torm51

[Lampros]

 

@Boeroer

 

Why FoTD is handly in a party?

 

 

1 ability + at least 1 talent to have a burst on a char that has, literally, the best shield in game?

 

I pick the best aura ingame (avaible at level 1) and I save a bunch of extra talents and 1 ability, no regret on that in a party. 2 burst /combact VS all res +5 all day long for everyone? In a game that is super dependant from afflictions of any kind? FoTD would be appealing but, for me, the problem is that the other option is just that good and, if devs can't balance they're own game, it's not my fail (super greedy min/maxer pow, be free to hate me for that).

 

 

The only thing that make that buckler feel "balanced" is that it's asinergic with FoTD potential (you can't dual or use a 2h) but, well, that's a FoTD problem, not mine XD

 

 

The only, ONLY, party that I have found fotd usefull is, actually, solo party

 

When fight goes forever you wish to have more damage, especially when you are high level enough to pick sworn enemies and you gain 2 good sabre to use (plus all the items/talents to be, basically, immortal even in PoTD). In party play, I go for the imbaness shield and I'm glad they never nerfed that (or suspicious about in game balance, pick your pow)

 

It's more about an ok burst ability, that to work require extra talents, and a single, let me repeat 1 last time, totally umbalaced item right there to use for no cost aside the off hand slot (lol, it's even the best type of shield, small one xD)

 

Why should I pick the 1st over the latter in a party? I can see myself go for bittercut + shield and some acid FoTD later, but that's only couz my char will be probably so godlike (moon, godlike ) in this 5man run that I will have a bunch of free talents at high levels.

Dude all I play is Triple Crown and all of my MC are Paladins. FoD and Lay on Hands are both good but I just did an entire Triple Crown with no Lay on Hands. Passive healing is THE way to go. The only characters LoH is useful on is high Health characters. If a wizard or backline softy needs LoH you are doing it wrong cause they will be dead of Health loss soon. Better to have an escape plan for them so they can avoid damage all together.

 

Also not taking FoD and Sworn Enemy makes you useless offensively until Sacred Immolation. I have had turtle Paladin characters and if you mess up one fight your Paladin will be the last one alive usulessly swinging away at a Caen Gwla and eventually dying (this is before Sacred Immolation).

 

That being said in big dangerous Fights like Dragons FoD is only useful against the Alpine Dragon. I killed him from injured with 2 shots at 198 damage a shot. The Adra Dragon is immune to fire. The flying bog dragon is immune to corrode and fire (lol Bleak Walker) and the ground dragon has a fire DR of 51.Thing is the recovery is SO SLOW on LoH you better heal early or you will not get the heal off and have a knocked out character. I don't get the luxury of recovery bars . I rather just have high passive healing and use FoD to gib Dragon minions who are dangerous (unless it's the Alpine dragon hehehe).

 

 

In conclusion neither are that great against the fights that matter. The most useful ability for Paladins in those fights is something you don't spec for, Your bad ass defenses. Also auras +6 ACC in a dragon fight on PoTD is a big deal. Zealous Charge will let the entire party create distance and buff while the slow dragon chases.

 

I'm getting both this time around.

 

 

Zealous Charge is better than Zealous Endurance?

[Boeroer]

Depends what you want to do. If you want to kite it's better.

 

If you want to stand your ground then not.

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

Depends what you want to do. If you want to kite it's better.

 

If you want to stand your ground then not.

 

 

 

I prefer to stand my ground, but are there fights in the game where I am better off kiting when I have 4 melees?

[Torm51]

Against a Xaurip no. Against a Dragon whose got a base breath damage of like 250. Having 30 DR instead of 27 isn't going to do much. The hit to graze is nice but it's RNG.

 

Out running the range of breathe and buffing up while the slow dragon and his buddies chases is better. I rather just not get hit. Charge does that.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Torm51

[Torm51]

face tanking a dragon on PoTD can be done but it's a bit luck. If you get interrupted and don't get a buff off you are done. I rather kite buff up and then charge head first.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Torm51

[Torm51]

 

Depends what you want to do. If you want to kite it's better.

 

If you want to stand your ground then not.

 

 

I prefer to stand my ground, but are there fights in the game where I am better off kiting when I have 4 melees?

The Adra Dragon Wing Slams. If you are going to run there with 4 melee you better have him controlled. Either mind controlled or prone. If not he will wing slam and breath all 4 melee and you won't last long.

 

The Alpine Dragon is safer the only AOE he has is a Wing Buffet that does cold damage in a cone and blinds. He does better single target DPS though as he's a ROGUE and has sneak attack, duel wields his claws and Deathblows. One of two knockouts I had in my last run was kana gettig blinded and something else and taking a death blow swipe for 450.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Torm51

[Lampros]

Against a Xaurip no. Against a Dragon whose got a base breath damage of like 250. Having 30 DR instead of 27 isn't going to do much. The hit to graze is nice but it's RNG.

 

Out running the range of breathe and buffing up while the slow dragon and his buddies chases is better. I rather just not get hit. Charge does that.

 

Wait; do you mean the Paladin Aura (Zealous Charge) or the Fighter ability (Charge) here?

 

By the way, I forgot about this: I watched a MaxQuest video earlier, and he was using a Chanter's speed Phrase. So if I am going to have a Chanter, then is Zealous Charge necessary at all?

 

 

face tanking a dragon on PoTD can be done but it's a bit luck. If you get interrupted and don't get a buff off you are done. I rather kite buff up and then charge head first.

 

Can't you buff up/prepare first and then take him on if you lie to the Adra Dragon?

[Torm51]

 

Against a Xaurip no. Against a Dragon whose got a base breath damage of like 250. Having 30 DR instead of 27 isn't going to do much. The hit to graze is nice but it's RNG.

 

Out running the range of breathe and buffing up while the slow dragon and his buddies chases is better. I rather just not get hit. Charge does that.

 

Wait; do you mean the Paladin Aura (Zealous Charge) or the Fighter ability (Charge) here?

 

By the way, I forgot about this: I watched a MaxQuest video earlier, and he was using a Chanter's speed Phrase. So if I am going to have a Chanter, then is Zealous Charge necessary at all?

 

 

face tanking a dragon on PoTD can be done but it's a bit luck. If you get interrupted and don't get a buff off you are done. I rather kite buff up and then charge head first.

 

Can't you buff up/prepare first and then take him on if you lie to the Adra Dragon?

 

Zealous Charge Aura not the fighter ability.  If you have the chanter run buff I would not take Zealous Charge.  They do not stack.  You can only buff with food before combat.  I am talking serious buffs like Devotions of the Faithful, Scrolls of Defense,  Llengraths Displaced Image potions etc.

 

You can face tank just make sure the dragon is controlled or you are very buffed.

[Lampros]

 

 

Against a Xaurip no. Against a Dragon whose got a base breath damage of like 250. Having 30 DR instead of 27 isn't going to do much. The hit to graze is nice but it's RNG.

 

Out running the range of breathe and buffing up while the slow dragon and his buddies chases is better. I rather just not get hit. Charge does that.

 

Wait; do you mean the Paladin Aura (Zealous Charge) or the Fighter ability (Charge) here?

 

By the way, I forgot about this: I watched a MaxQuest video earlier, and he was using a Chanter's speed Phrase. So if I am going to have a Chanter, then is Zealous Charge necessary at all?

 

 

face tanking a dragon on PoTD can be done but it's a bit luck. If you get interrupted and don't get a buff off you are done. I rather kite buff up and then charge head first.

 

Can't you buff up/prepare first and then take him on if you lie to the Adra Dragon?

 

Zealous Charge Aura not the fighter ability.  If you have the chanter run buff I would not take Zealous Charge.  They do not stack.  You can only buff with food before combat.  I am talking serious buffs like Devotions of the Faithful, Scrolls of Defense,  Llengraths Displaced Image potions etc.

 

You can face tank just make sure the dragon is controlled or you are very buffed.

 

 

Just two more stupid newb questions while you are around:

 

1. You can have Zealous Focus and Zealous Endurance, if you have two Paladins, correct?

 

2. If a Chanter is doing anything other than auto-attack, his Phrases get interrupted, correct? So I should not - if possible - cast spells, scrolls, or use figurines if I don't want my Phrases interrupted?

[Torm51]

1. Yes you can

 

2. 99.9% that is correct.

[Lampros]

1. Yes you can

 

2. 99.9% that is correct.

 

Awesome - thanks as usual!

[Boeroer]

Afaik Chanter's singing only stops when he's stunned, paralyzed or petrified or when he uses invocations.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

Afaik Chanter's singing only stops when he's stunned, paralyzed or petrified or when he uses invocations.

 

Hmmm, I better test to make sure.

 

Or perhaps MaxQuest can just answer?

[Lampros]

By the way, Boerer (or anyone):

 

Is dual wielding swords on a DPS/off-tank Paladin a stupid idea? The reason I ask is that I really really want to use Shame or Glory on one hand, because of the Marking bonus. Is there any way to make this set-up work? That is, I want to dual wield, do decent damage, and yet still be able to grant a Marking bonus on my mates. And what combination of level-up Abilities/Talents and off-hand weapon will make this work?

 

If there simply is not another sword to make this combination with a Shame or Glory worthwhile, I guess I am even willing to take a second Weapon Focus - since I have 2 Paladins anyways. But of course I still do not want to invest in 2 Weapon Focuses, if I can help it.

 

Edit: Given how the sword is such an iconic weapon in most societies and in the fantasy genre, I am really disappointed by the sword selection in this game relative to other weapons. Ugh.

 

Edit 2: I only see two other worthwhile end-game swords possibly on Gamespedia? Sheathed in Autumn and Last Blade of the White Forge? Or do folks think Whispers of Yenwood and Cat's Claw can be considered in the mix as well?

Edited September 29, 2017 by Lampros

[Torm51]

If you get the Wax Mold from the adventure Stronghold quests you can make two Shame or Glories and stack marking.  Your DPS will be ok but that wouldn't be your purpose with those two swords your main goal would be to be a super marker.  Alternatively, you could grab Caladath or whatever its called if you say the right things in the quest it will have a marking enchant.  Although yes DW a sword and spear looks wonky.

 

On your comment about the lack of good one handed swords its the class and the way DR works not the swords.  A rogue or DW fighter could make one handed swords hit very hard.  Obsidian went the route of Dungeon and Dragons Warlord type for the Paladin in this game. It is a leader class that supports and has some damage dealing ability but its not the focus.  Therefore you do not get weapon damage stacking abilities in order to over come high DR.  You do however get Flames of Devotion (this games version of Smite) that is an Alpha Strike.  Also your DPS shoots through the roof with Sacred Immolation. 

 

I think of it this way.  It is a fantasy setting in a LATE medieval Early /Renaissance era.  With the invention of firearms and rising importance in ranged weaponry Paladins (the way they are describes in this game) would absolutely start using those weapons to their advantage.  So the ranged smite makes sense.  It isn't the "classic" D and D Paladin.  He/she is a Leader.  An NCO or Officer of a fighting company and those type of people are usually intelligent or savvy individuals. 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Torm51

[Boeroer]

Sure,why not use two swords - or sword and battle axe (if that's no aesthetical problem for you)?

 

No problems with that. Swords have two damage types and that's good. As Torm said, you can also stack marking. That only works when dual wielding. The Marking of two different chars doesn't stack.

 

The only early unique swords are Shame & G. and Whispers of Yenwood, but later on you can get some decent ones, especially in act III. Or you can use the Unlabored Blade or Steadfast. Both work with any weapon focus.

[Lampros]

If you get the Wax Mold from the adventure Stronghold quests you can make two Shame or Glories and stack marking.  Your DPS will be ok but that wouldn't be your purpose with those two swords your main goal would be to be a super marker.  Alternatively, you could grab Caladath or whatever its called if you say the right things in the quest it will have a marking enchant.  Although yes DW a sword and spear looks wonky.

 

On your comment about the lack of good one handed swords its the class and the way DR works not the swords.  A rogue or DW fighter could make one handed swords hit very hard.  Obsidian went the route of Dungeon and Dragons Warlord type for the Paladin in this game. It is a leader class that supports and has some damage dealing ability but its not the focus.  Therefore you do not get weapon damage stacking abilities in order to over come high DR.  You do however get Flames of Devotion (this games version of Smite) that is an Alpha Strike.  Also your DPS shoots through the roof with Sacred Immolation. 

 

I think of it this way.  It is a fantasy setting in a LATE medieval Early /Renaissance era.  With the invention of firearms and rising importance in ranged weaponry Paladins (the way they are describes in this game) would absolutely start using those weapons to their advantage.  So the ranged smite makes sense.  It isn't the "classic" D and D Paladin.  He/she is a Leader.  An NCO or Officer of a fighting company and those type of people are usually intelligent or savvy individuals. 

 

I did not know Marks stack. But Helwax does seem a bit wasted on Shame or Glory. And definitely no dual wielding with spear - a total immersion/aesthetic nightmare!

 

I think I am inclining a lot more toward using a gun switch set-up at least on one Paladin though - as I mentioned in the other thread. My 4 melee group will be very sturdy, but there will be some fights where I am facing a lot of enemy ranged and will require heavy ranged alpha strike power.

 

 

Sure,why not use two swords - or sword and battle axe (if that's no aesthetical problem for you)?

 

No problems with that. Swords have two damage types and that's good. As Torm said, you can also stack marking. That only works when dual wielding. The Marking of two different chars doesn't stack.

 

The only early unique swords are Shame & G. and Whispers of Yenwood, but later on you can get some decent ones, especially in act III. Or you can use the Unlabored Blade or Steadfast. Both work with any weapon focus.

 

I am okay with dual wielding a sword and battle axe. I even forgot that they are in the same Weapon Focus group! Thanks for reminding me. The issue with a battle axe is single damage type though. Is there any that you would particularly recommend with Shame or Glory?

 

And if you were to recommend the one sword to pair with Shame or Glory for a dual wield Paladin, what would it be?

Edited September 29, 2017 by Lampros

[Boeroer]

The Last Blade of the White Forge - because it has speed.

 

Sheathed in Autumn is a nice weapon that comes with superb and looks good with Shame or Glory- but it already has a freezing lash which is kind of a bummer for paladins who also take Scion of Flame.

 

Cat's Claw is ok because of rending but nothing too fancy.

 

I totally like the look of the Darcozzi Paladini's Longsword of In'claene. It looks like the little brother of the Redeemer. Unfortunately it does nothing special...

[Lampros]

The Last Blade of the White Forge - because it has speed.

 

Sheathed in Autumn is a nice weapon that comes with superb and looks good with Shame or Glory- but it already has a freezing lash which is kind of a bummer for paladins who also take Scion of Flame.

 

Cat's Claw is ok because of rending but nothing too fancy.

 

I totally like the look of the Darcozzi Paladini's Longsword of In'claene. It looks like the little brother of the Redeemer. Unfortunately it does nothing special...

 

Thanks! I think I will ultimately use Shame or Glory/Last Blade combination. I agree that Sheathed in Autumn is attractive-looking (and it has a Superb enchant), but the Freezing enchant turns me off it as well.

 

I guess ultimately Helwax is still an option for Shame or Glory, but I'd really like to use it on something else. Perhaps even Shod-in-Faith - as I think having two of these on the front-line will surely let me play a bit more aggressively with both the Paladin and the Fighter.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Lampros

[Boeroer]

Consecrated Ground's healing is nice in the early to mid game. But in the late game it's a bit weak.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Sword and Mace or Sword and Flail look good. Lots of options there. I like Ravenwing as it hard in the early game and is easy to acquire. Plus it looks Badass! Unforgiven is nice as well.