Do all classes have an ability resource cost now?

[smjjames]

 

I may or may

Go back and watch the video from update 7. Important part starts at about 2:50 and runs to about the 4:00 mark

I understand it somewhat better now, though I'm still not sure if it's a drainable resource like Mana typically is or if it's something else.

 

Also, in the other part of the video, seems more like a Druid+Barbarian (or vice versa) would be a shaman rather than barbarian+wizard (and vice versa) but I guess it depends on how you slice it.

Each class has power points that they can use to activate abilities. These points are depleted as they are used and can be restored by resting. Does that help?

 

 

Just wanted to be sure I had the concept down right. I hope the pool is large enough that you don't have to rest a lot, which is, admittedly, going to be more of an issue at lower levels than later on.

 

Although for some classes, it seems like it would build up during combat, not unlike some classes currently do in PoE1. I mean, it makes more sense for Rage to build up during combat than have it be full before you enter combat.

Edited May 5, 2017 by smjjames

[Guest]

There's an important difference, feels-wise, between these two definitions of a Power Source.

 

1) Discipline: For every N points of Discipline, you gain an additional per-encounter use for all Fighter abilities.

 

2) Discipline: Your Discipline is the maximum value of the resource you spend to activate Fighter abilities in combat. You either start out with your Discipline resource at max at the beginning of every battle, or you have to build it up by some method the same way a Monk builds up Wounds and a Cipher builds up Focus.

 

The former is what you'd expect given the way Fighters and most other classes worked in PoE1, and it seems to be the most natural understanding of the way Power Sources were described during the Fig campaign.

I'll take that as a "no" then?

[Guest]

 

 

I may or may

Go back and watch the video from update 7. Important part starts at about 2:50 and runs to about the 4:00 mark

I understand it somewhat better now, though I'm still not sure if it's a drainable resource like Mana typically is or if it's something else.

 

Also, in the other part of the video, seems more like a Druid+Barbarian (or vice versa) would be a shaman rather than barbarian+wizard (and vice versa) but I guess it depends on how you slice it.

Each class has power points that they can use to activate abilities. These points are depleted as they are used and can be restored by resting. Does that help?

Just wanted to be sure I had the concept down right. I hope the pool is large enough that you don't have to rest a lot, which is, admittedly, going to be more of an issue at lower levels than later on.

 

Although for some classes, it seems like it would build up during combat, not unlike some classes currently do in PoE1. I mean, it makes more sense for Rage to build up during combat than have it be full before you enter combat.

Pool size is shown in the chart in update 7. Single class max is 10. 50/50 multiclass is 7 (for each power source). Et cetera.

[Infinitron]

Hm, so how does it fit into the idea of per-rest power points that empower per-encounter abilities? That doesn't seem to be it, since abilities simply cost Zeal in this example. Maybe they're exclusive to the formerly-Vancian casters, while other classes get their own resources.

 

As far as I know, the per-rest "power points" and these per-encounter resource points are two different things. One is a resource cost for using abilities, the other is a resource for boosting their power.

 

Although if this per-encounter resource concept is a new thing, it wouldn't surprise me if the per-rest power point concept gets cancelled or folded in to it somehow.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Infinitron

[Guest]

 

Hm, so how does it fit into the idea of per-rest power points that empower per-encounter abilities? That doesn't seem to be it, since abilities simply cost Zeal in this example. Maybe they're exclusive to the formerly-Vancian casters, while other classes get their own resources.

As far as I know, the per-rest "power points" and these per-encounter resource points are two different things. One is a resource cost for using abilities, the other is a resource for boosting their power.

 

Although if this per-encounter resource concept is a new thing, it wouldn't surprise me if the per-rest power points get cancelled or folded in to it somehow.

Even though you quoted Josh saying the opposite. Amazing.

[rjshae]

If it were me I'd get rid of the negative numbers and replace them with a matching number of icons. For example, -4 becomes @@@@. That will make it look less like a math problem.

[smjjames]

 

 

Hm, so how does it fit into the idea of per-rest power points that empower per-encounter abilities? That doesn't seem to be it, since abilities simply cost Zeal in this example. Maybe they're exclusive to the formerly-Vancian casters, while other classes get their own resources.

As far as I know, the per-rest "power points" and these per-encounter resource points are two different things. One is a resource cost for using abilities, the other is a resource for boosting their power.

 

Although if this per-encounter resource concept is a new thing, it wouldn't surprise me if the per-rest power points get cancelled or folded in to it somehow.

Even though you quoted Josh saying the opposite. Amazing.

 

We'll probably undestand it better when we see it in action.

 

 

If it were me I'd get rid of the negative numbers and replace them with a matching number of icons. For example, -4 becomes @@@@. That will make it look less like a math problem.

 

Numbers are harder to get confused over than abstract icons though. Not to mention that there isn't all that much space in those thumbnails.

Edited May 5, 2017 by smjjames

[Guest]

I think the SA screenshot that Infinitron posted earlier makes is pretty clear, but maybe that's just me.

[Infinitron]

 

Even though you quoted Josh saying the opposite. Amazing.

 

 

 No I didn't.

 

Achilles, I get the feeling you've made a bunch of assumptions about the way this game this work which haven't been verified. You're spreading misinformation by assuming this know-it-all stance. Not to mention being kind of annoying.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Infinitron

[MaxQuest]

a. No, every class starts with 3 power points which gives them a power level of 1. 0 isn't an option, even when multiclassing.

b. She has 9 Zeal because she's high level. Read my previous post.

No idea what you're asking with c and d. Power points are restored by resting (though I suspect that this will be differ t for Chanters and Monks. Speculation on my part only)

Achilles.. I know about power sources, power level and their progression.

You didn't understand the question. As Infinitron has pointed out, I was referring to combat.

 

For example: a 17/0 Pallegina has 51 power source points / 9 power level. Her power source is zeal. She uses zeal to cast her spells/abilities.

- the first part of the question was: does she start every combat at 0, m or 9 zeal?

- the second part of the question was: can she gain/generate more zeal during fight?

And afaik we have no source to answer this yet.

[Guest]

 

Even though you quoted Josh saying the opposite. Amazing.

 

No I didn't.

 

Achilles, I get the feeling you've made a bunch of assumptions about the way this game this work which haven't been verified. You're spreading misinformation by assuming this know-it-all stance. Not to mention being kind of annoying.

Post #6 isn't yours? Another "Infinitron" with the same avatar perhaps? Edited May 5, 2017 by Achilles

[smjjames]

I suspect everybody is a bit confused to some extent in some manner because we simply don't have all of the answers yet. As MaxQuest said.

Edited May 5, 2017 by smjjames

[Guest]

 

a. No, every class starts with 3 power points which gives them a power level of 1. 0 isn't an option, even when multiclassing.

b. She has 9 Zeal because she's high level. Read my previous post.

No idea what you're asking with c and d. Power points are restored by resting (though I suspect that this will be differ t for Chanters and Monks. Speculation on my part only)

Achilles.. I know about power sources, power level and their progression.

You didn't understand the question. As Infinitron has pointed out, I was referring to combat.

 

For example: a 17/0 Pallegina has 51 power source points / 9 power level. Her power source is zeal. She uses zeal to cast her spells/abilities.

- the first part of the question was: does she start every combat at 0, m or 9 zeal?

- the second part of the question was: can she gain/generate more zeal during fight?

And afaik we have no source to answer this yet.

9 Zeal unless she used an ability in a previous fight and hasn't rested since. Then it would be a number lower than 9. Perhaps 0, in which case she should rest so that she could have 9 again. I know this because Josh has stated that power points are only restored by resting (again, I suspect that this will be different for monks and chanters, but I have no evidence for this).

 

Per the very first post in the thread, there is a progression for Sworn Enemy that will allow her to get Zeal back if the targeted enemy is defeated (unclear if the enemy has to be defeated by her). Also unclear if other classes will have access to something similar.

[smjjames]

I guess I'm not understanding the disconnect. You understand that Fighters use Discipline for Knockdown and that Knockdown will change as Discipline improves: yes or no?

 

Not sure if that was aimed at me or not, but I didn't catch that part in the vid, or might have missed that in the Fig update.

[Guest]

I suspect everybody is a bit confused to some extent in some manner because we simply don't have all of the answers yet. As MaxQuest said.

You're right that we don't know everything. However Josh has been talking about this change to the mechanics for 3 months and 2 days. It's not as though we don't know anything. Frankly, I'm very surprised that Infinitron is playing this off like new information considering how many questions he asks in the Q&As (Josh: "No, Infinitron, I've already answered a ton of your questions")

[Guest]

 

I guess I'm not understanding the disconnect. You understand that Fighters use Discipline for Knockdown and that Knockdown will change as Discipline improves: yes or no?

Not sure if that was aimed at me or not, but I didn't catch that part in the vid, or might have missed that in the Fig update.

No, it was intended for Infinitron.

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

Hm, so how does it fit into the idea of per-rest power points that empower per-encounter abilities? That doesn't seem to be it, since abilities simply cost Zeal in this example. Maybe they're exclusive to the formerly-Vancian casters, while other classes get their own resources.

 

As far as I know, the per-rest "power points" and these per-encounter resource points are two different things. One is a resource cost for using abilities, the other is a resource for boosting their power.

 

Although if this per-encounter resource concept is a new thing, it wouldn't surprise me if the per-rest power point concept gets cancelled or folded in to it somehow.

 

 

Maybe. If I'd seen that post on its own, I'd assume that Zeal, Discipline etc. are different names for the power points that can be used to empower per-encounter abilities. But on the screenshot, we can see that abilities seem to have Zeal costs just to use. Something doesn't add up.

[rheingold]

My understanding is that it is very necessary for balance purposes. In pillars there are some seriously front loaded classes.... Rogues/ciphers/barbarians, I'm looking at you. This is an attempt to prevent every single build being a rogue 1/other class x.

Also, hopefully it means that single classes are perfectly viable now. Looking forward to seeing how it works.

[MaxQuest]

9 Zeal unless she used an ability in a previous fight and hasn't rested since. Then it would be a number lower than 9. Perhaps 0, in which case she should rest so that she could have 9 again. I know this because Josh has stated that power points are only restored by resting (again, I suspect that this will be different for monks and chanters, but I have no evidence for this).

Thanks for clarification. Could you link the source, please?

I have a feeling that you are confusing power source points with empower charges. The latter are indeed restored on rest.

 

Per the very first post in the thread, there is a progression for Sworn Enemy that will allow her to get Zeal back if the targeted enemy is defeated (unclear if the enemy has to be defeated by her). Also unclear if other classes will have access to something similar.

I've seen that post and was aware of cost refunds.

 

Maybe. If I'd seen that post on its own, I'd assume that Zeal, Discipline etc. are different names for the power points that can be used to empower per-encounter abilities. But on the screenshot, we can see that abilities seem to have Zeal costs just to use. Something doesn't add up.

I suppose it's quite simple:

1. there are power source points (and we know how they are calculated, thanks to update #7)

2. they are used to compute related power level

3. power level determines spell progression for ex-vancian classes (wizard, druid and priest). (i.e. to what spells they have access to, and how many of each rank can they cast per-encounter). Also it determines the size of per-encounter resource pool for paladins.

4. while empower is per-rest stuff. I.e. there is a limited amount of charges, which can be used to augment some of your spells or abilities.

Edited May 5, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Infinitron]

 

 

Hm, so how does it fit into the idea of per-rest power points that empower per-encounter abilities? That doesn't seem to be it, since abilities simply cost Zeal in this example. Maybe they're exclusive to the formerly-Vancian casters, while other classes get their own resources.

 

As far as I know, the per-rest "power points" and these per-encounter resource points are two different things. One is a resource cost for using abilities, the other is a resource for boosting their power.

 

Although if this per-encounter resource concept is a new thing, it wouldn't surprise me if the per-rest power point concept gets cancelled or folded in to it somehow.

 

 

Maybe. If I'd seen that post on its own, I'd assume that Zeal, Discipline etc. are different names for the power points that can be used to empower per-encounter abilities. But on the screenshot, we can see that abilities seem to have Zeal costs just to use. Something doesn't add up.

 

 

There's a name for those per-rest power points. They're explicitly called "Empower", and they were described as causing an ability to function as if the user's Power Source (such as Zeal or Discipline) was N points higher. It would therefore be unusual if Empower was the same thing as those Power Source-derived points. More importantly, going from the screenshot it would seem to imply that the game had backtracked on making almost all of its abilities per-encounter and not per-rest, as there's no mention of the ability's Zeal cost being optional.

 

So my assumption until shown otherwise is that it's not the same thing.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Infinitron

[smjjames]

My understanding is that it is very necessary for balance purposes. In pillars there are some seriously front loaded classes.... Rogues/ciphers/barbarians, I'm looking at you. This is an attempt to prevent every single build being a rogue 1/other class x.

Also, hopefully it means that single classes are perfectly viable now. Looking forward to seeing how it works.

 

Aren't single classes already viable now? Not that there is a choice, heh.

 

I have a feeling that Monk with Rogue multiclass (or vice versa) is going to be pretty powerful, considering that Rogue relies on getting lots of DPS in and Monk relies on speed and enhancing that. Would be interesting to see how they balance powerful combinations like that.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

9 Zeal unless she used an ability in a previous fight and hasn't rested since. Then it would be a number lower than 9. Perhaps 0, in which case she should rest so that she could have 9 again. I know this because Josh has stated that power points are only restored by resting (again, I suspect that this will be different for monks and chanters, but I have no evidence for this).

Thanks for clarification. Could you link the source, please?

I have a feeling that you are confusing power source points with empower charges. The latter are indeed restored on rest.

 

Per the very first post in the thread, there is a progression for Sworn Enemy that will allow her to get Zeal back if the targeted enemy is defeated (unclear if the enemy has to be defeated by her). Also unclear if other classes will have access to something similar.

I've seen that post and was aware of cost refunds.

 

Yeah he has, he seems to think that they are per rest when they sound to be per encounter as Josh likens them to the Monk's Wound mechanic, though the developers have not stated outright that this is the case so no one can claim for definite as yet.

Edited May 5, 2017 by FlintlockJazz

[smjjames]

We have, what, a year or so before release? So, there will definetly be lots of adjustments to how the mechanics work, especially once it gets into Beta.

 

Likely the reason we haven't gotten more information is that they haven't gotten the mechanics to where they feel it's balanced and are happy with it.

[Guest]

 

9 Zeal unless she used an ability in a previous fight and hasn't rested since. Then it would be a number lower than 9. Perhaps 0, in which case she should rest so that she could have 9 again. I know this because Josh has stated that power points are only restored by resting (again, I suspect that this will be different for monks and chanters, but I have no evidence for this).

Thanks for clarification. Could you link the source, please?

I have a feeling that you are confusing power source points with empower charges. The latter are indeed restored on rest.

Post 6, no? Josh has done lots of videos, Q&A's, the livesteam, SA posts, twitter, and tumblr. Apologies that I can't point you to examples of where this was covered. I get you wanting something more concrete than that, but it's the best I can do for you.

[Guest]

 

My understanding is that it is very necessary for balance purposes. In pillars there are some seriously front loaded classes.... Rogues/ciphers/barbarians, I'm looking at you. This is an attempt to prevent every single build being a rogue 1/other class x.

Also, hopefully it means that single classes are perfectly viable now. Looking forward to seeing how it works.

Aren't single classes already viable now? Not that there is a choice, heh.

 

I have a feeling that Monk with Rogue multiclass (or vice versa) is going to be pretty powerful, considering that Rogue relies on getting lots of DPS in and Monk relies on speed and enhancing that. Would be interesting to see how they balance powerful combinations like that.

Yes, in fact single class is the only way to max out power power points. Multi-class characters will always be 75-85% as powerful as a single class character (though they will have abilities from multiple classes as a trade-off)