Bittercut doubt

[helmino]

Hi, after some really good help from the kind Boeroer to figure out what weapons are good for a Rogue, i'm looking at Bittercut.

This weapon work very well vith a Corrosive lash + Spirit of Decay, but this talent DR influence only the corrosive damage or even the slash damage?

If i take vulnerable attack too, will this DR stack with the Spirit of Decay one? and vice versa working on the corrosive damage? thanks in advance!

[Livegood118]

Bittercut is a very, very good weapon:

 

1. Starts with +20% from sabre bonus, get's +20% from Spirit of Decay before any other enchantments are applied.

 

2. The Bonus from Spirit of Decay applies to both the slash and corrode portions of the weapon

 

3. Any lashes will synergise with their respective elemental talent e.g. if you put a corrode lash on bittercut and have spirit of decay, it'll become a 30% lash rather than a 25% lash.

 

4. Dual damage types are really, really good.

 

5. Vulnerable attack with apply to both the physical and corrode aspects of the damage. However, given that Rogues can struggle with getting speed boosts, other than in situations where you're dual wielding, you might consider something else instead because rogues dont have too much trouble with DR through doing high damage. This'll depend on the rest of your equip set-up though.

 

Another option to consider for rogue is the greatsword Tidefall. Rogues can dump Int with very little repercussions, meaning the wounding effect will work faster. Draining is fantastic. Tidefall has two damage types as well and comes Superb as standard.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Livegood118

[firkraag888]

Hi, after some really good help from the kind Boeroer to figure out what weapons are good for a Rogue, i'm looking at Bittercut.

This weapon work very well vith a Corrosive lash + Spirit of Decay, but this talent DR influence only the corrosive damage or even the slash damage?

If i take vulnerable attack too, will this DR stack with the Spirit of Decay one? and vice versa working on the corrosive damage? thanks in advance!

don't take vulnerable attack with rogue.

 

you will be doing really high damage that will punch dr anyway. VA slows your attacks down by 20%

 

VA is also counterproductive with sneak attacks and deathblows. if you can get off SA and DB off you want to be attacking as quickly as possible.

Edited March 20, 2017 by firkraag888

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'll agree with the posters here, not to mention by appearances Rogue comes with Reckless Assault, and that 1.2X Melee damage and +8 accuracy will result in much higher damage with sabres than a 5 DT bypass and a 0% loss in attack speed.

 

EDIT: Actually never mind, Reckless Assault seems to only add base damage and round down to boot, so it's +2-3 damage with sabres at the cost of -8 deflection. Used console to confirm the same seems to hold true with savage attack as well. Reckless Assault is still the most damage boosting modal for melee, but I don't know if you want to take that -8 deflection hit which is pretty damn high for a fairly small payout. Note I play with the IE mod so that could be causing an issue.

Edited March 20, 2017 by KaineParker

[Boeroer]

Yes - skip Vulnerable Attack with sabres.

 

It's good for fast weapons with speed enchant, or if you already have high weapon speed and surpassed 0 recovery. But sabres are relatively slow and there are none with speed enchant and a rogue has no ability other than Outlander's Frenzy which could boost his speed.

 

As firkraag888 said: sabre + rogue leads to quite high damage per hit that should overcome most DR easily. 20% speed loss will hamper your DPS more than the +5 DR bypass can do your good.

[Boeroer]

The good thing about Reckless Assault is the +8 ACC, not the +20% DMG. That's just a nice bonus.

 

Savage Attack doesn't work with Reckless Assault by the way. One will switch off the other.

 

All DMG bonuses except lashes (and confident aim) only add % of base damage. It's the stacking of those bonuses that makes your attacks powerful.

If you can get them, then favour lashes. Best is to have both.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

The good thing about Reckless Assault is the +8 ACC, not the +20% DMG. That's just a nice bonus.

 

Savage Attack doesn't work with Reckless Assault by the way. One will switch off the other.

 

All DMG bonuses except lashes (and confident aim) only add % of base damage. It's the stacking of those bonuses that makes your attacks powerful.

If you can get them, then favour lashes. Best is to have both.

Savage Attack works with Reckless attack but the dmg bonus is suppressed and you get just -5acc...

[Livegood118]

 

The good thing about Reckless Assault is the +8 ACC, not the +20% DMG. That's just a nice bonus.

 

Savage Attack doesn't work with Reckless Assault by the way. One will switch off the other.

 

All DMG bonuses except lashes (and confident aim) only add % of base damage. It's the stacking of those bonuses that makes your attacks powerful.

If you can get them, then favour lashes. Best is to have both.

Savage Attack works with Reckless attack but the dmg bonus is suppressed and you get just -5acc...

 

 

 

10/10 coding

[Boeroer]

Last time I tried the modal was switched off completely (maybe 3.04 or before). At leastI remember so. I was only testing a lvl 16 rogue with the console for about 10 minutes - so maybe my memory fails me.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Boeroer

[helmino]

Nice suggestions, since i have 20 dex 19 perc 10 might, what enchant you suggest aside from corrosive lash?

 

ps: since i have 19 perc, is worth taking Interrupting blows?

Edited March 20, 2017 by helmino

[Boeroer]

If you don't know what else to take.

[helmino]

If you don't know what else to take.

Oh so is not optimal ok xD

[MasterCipher]

One thing I like about this game, is there is rarely a best for every situation or play style.

 

Another versatile option worthy of consideration:

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/The_Hours_of_St._Rumbalt

 

Annihilation on a 2 hander (.5 is only on weapon base damage, but rogues crit a lot)

2 damage types

Highest theoretical single hit potential weapon for a rogue

Prone on crit (more creatures are immune now compared to early days, but still helps with survivability and deathblows)

Available early

 

 

Off-topic: Rogues are single target DPS beasts, but this and most games favor AoE damage. I would love to see mobs and encounters with AoE avoidance or mitigation to counter-balance.

[Boeroer]

Hours of St. Rumbalt = one of my favorite weapons in PoE. It has a great combination of enchantments and also looks very cool. And you can get it early.

[firkraag888]

One thing I like about this game, is there is rarely a best for every situation or play style.

 

Another versatile option worthy of consideration:

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/The_Hours_of_St._Rumbalt

 

Annihilation on a 2 hander (.5 is only on weapon base damage, but rogues crit a lot)

2 damage types

Highest theoretical single hit potential weapon for a rogue

Prone on crit (more creatures are immune now compared to early days, but still helps with survivability and deathblows)

Available early

 

 

Off-topic: Rogues are single target DPS beasts, but this and most games favor AoE damage. I would love to see mobs and encounters with AoE avoidance or mitigation to counter-balance.

2 handlers on rogues are counter productive to sneak attacks and death blows. You really want to be dual weilding. If you want proc weapons there are obvisouly 1 handlers that proc as well use them.

 

Rumbald good weapon but definatley not suited for rogue.

[Livegood118]

2 handlers on rogues are counter productive to sneak attacks and death blows. You really want to be dual weilding. If you want proc weapons there are obvisouly 1 handlers that proc as well use them.

Rumbald good weapon but definatley not suited for rogue.

 

???

 

13 – 19 at +100% damage = 26 – 38

11 – 16 at +100% damage = 22 – 32

 

1H weapon gains another 11 – 16 dmg, 2H gains another 13 – 19

 

Seems like +% damage modifiers synergise pretty well with higher base damage

[Boeroer]

Why are 2handers not suited for rogues? I mean - what are the arguments?

 

Dual wielding has some advantages, but two handers have them, too.

 

Hours of St. Rumbalt for example has high base damage (as all two handers) which is good for all dmg mods such as Sneak Attack and Deathblows which use weapon base damage. You will punch through high DR very easily.

Then, Rumbalt has Annihilation which adds 50% bonus damage to crits. Again, this is great with the high base damage of two handers. Most rogues will side with the Doemenels and add another +30% crit damge modifier.  And last but not least Rumbalt is also Overbearing, meaning it causes prone on crit. Because a rogue has a high chance to do a crit, this weapon is totally suitable for him. Tall Grass is another example of a weapon that works great with a rogue. If you have other sources of afflictions on you (e.g. wear the Binding Rope) you will have instant Deathblows as soon as the target receives a crit.

 

Tidefall is awesome on a rogue, too, if you max your MIG ad dump your INT (rogues can do that without gimping themselves too much). If you add Runner's Wounding Shot and Deep Wounds you will deal tons of raw damage because wouding and Runner's W. Shot are based on the actual damage roll you did, that includes Sneak + Deathblows + crits and so on (not lashes). Tidefall has great synergies with rogues. The draining also helps a bit with survivability (it doesn't work with +healing modifiers though).

 

There is a sweet spot when fighting high DR targets where two handers do more dps than dual wielding. I don't know exactly where it is, but against high DR targets a two hander will do more dps than a dual wielding setup (now that sabres base damage got nerfed). 

 

Two Handers are even better for Backstabs. You will get two Backstab attacks if you attack out of stealth. It doesn't matter if you are dual wielding or using a two hander. You will always get two attacks (if you don't get disabled, go k.o. or get interrupted like crazy). Don't ask me why, it's just like that.

 

Dual wielding is indeed better if you use special abilities which do Full Attacks a lot - things like Blinding Strike and so on. Full Attack means that if you dual wield you will strike with both weapons (also works with bashing shields). If you don't use them a lot, dual wielding is not inherently better.

 

Another advantage of two handers is that you can get very good unique ones with overbearing relatively early while similar one handers come quite late (except you do the Dozens quest line and craft Cladhaliath early in Act II). The Temperacl, Hours of St. Rumbalt, Tall Grass (also great because it's a reach weapon so your rogue can hide behind the front line), Tidefall can be obtained very early in Act II if you want - compared to Godansthunyr, We Toki, Starcaller and so on. Those are in Act III.

 

I did some rogue runs and the ones with two handers were not worse than those with dual wielding sabres or battle axes. One time I had one rogue with Rumbalt and another with dual battle axes, both hearth orlans, work as a tag team. At the end of the game both had dealt nearly the same damage.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

_{The base damage of a sabre is not far off the base damage of a great sword (within 10%)}

 

_{The Speed of a sabre is Average and the speed of a greatsword is slow.}

 

_{The difference in DPS with dual weilding sabres compared to wielding 1 GS is very significant.}

 

_{The only benefit with 2 handed weapons is that they tend to have the best magical properties on them.}

 

_{Rumbalds is prone. You can find 1 handed weapons that do prone/ stun and you can dual weild them.}

[Boeroer]

Actually the speed of "average" one handed weapons and "slow" two handers is the same. Look at MaxQuests big Attack Speed thread. So there's no difference in speed.

 

Sabre's base damage: 11-16 (average 13.5, after nerf)

 

Greatsword's base damage: 14-20 (average 17)

 

The difference in base damage is 3.5 (average one handed weapons do about 20% less base damage).

 

That means a lot better outcome of all DMG mods that work with weapon base damage.

 

Sneak + Deathblows + crit on a sabre: 40.5 damage

 

Same on great sword: 51.

 

Now with dual wielding you will have higher dps with average one handers like sabres against low DR because of speed but lower DPS against high DR because a higher percentage of the damage will be eaten up by DR. The more damage mods like Savage Attack, high MIG and so on you add the more the two hander profits.

 

Also: you can find one handers with overbearing and even stunning, but a lot L A T E R - as I already wrote in my previous statement.

[Kaylon]

The base damage of a saber is the same as the other large 1h weapons (it was changed a few patches ago...). The speed of large 1h weapons was always the same as 2h weapons. With buffs and the right items you can basically attack with the same speed as a dual wielder while having 26% higher base damage - Tidefall has obviously the best DPS potential (if you don't count Firebrand).

[Boeroer]

Firebrand with Doemenel rogue does indeed very impressive damage. It's base damage is a lot higher (I guess around 10 points or so?) than that of other two handers and it's annihilating.

[Kaylon]

Firebrand with Doemenel rogue does indeed very impressive damage. It's base damage is a lot higher (I guess around 10 points or so?) than that of other two handers and it's annihilating.

Finally, after a little more thinking, a legendary Tidefall with lash and durganized > ALL. Lash+wounding is like 50-75% more base dmg - which beats all the damage advantage Firebrand has. Tidefall has also 15ACC and 15% speed on top of all that...

[firkraag888]

Actually the speed of "average" one handed weapons and "slow" two handers is the same. Look at MaxQuests big Attack Speed thread. So there's no difference in speed.

 

Sabre's base damage: 11-16 (average 13.5, after nerf)

 

Greatsword's base damage: 14-20 (average 17)

 

The difference in base damage is 3.5 (average one handed weapons do about 20% less base damage).

 

That means a lot better outcome of all DMG mods that work with weapon base damage.

 

Sneak + Deathblows + crit on a sabre: 40.5 damage

 

Same on great sword: 51.

 

Now with dual wielding you will have higher dps with average one handers like sabres against low DR because of speed but lower DPS against high DR because a higher percentage of the damage will be eaten up by DR. The more damage mods like Savage Attack, high MIG and so on you add the more the two hander profits.

 

Also: you can find one handers with overbearing and even stunning, but a lot L A T E R - as I already wrote in my previous statement.

yeah but your hitting twice with the sabre and the great sword is only hitting once.

 

so that's 27 Sabre damage to the GSs 17 per round.

 

And like is said it is counterproductive to deathblows and sneak attacks.IF You can get them off the damage will punch through DR easily anyway.  That extra 3.5 damage you will gain from using a greatsword is basically nothing when your talking 60-70 damage per hit. All this and we still aren't considering the extra 20% damage the sabres get that the greatsword doesnt

 

Plus Blinding strike, wounding strike, stunning strike are all full attacks that gain from dual wielding. eg both strikes will gain the accuracy and damage bonus and can land the afflictions

Edited March 28, 2017 by firkraag888

[AlphaMagnum]

Well autoattack DPS and Full Attack abilities are two different things. Autoattacks even when dual wielding strike with each weapon one at a time. There is a normal recovery between each strike, as is the case with two handed weapons. That recovery is modified and can be reduced by talents, abilities, gear, etc

 

Full Attacks, you are correct, strike with all equipped weapons, and generally give dual wielders an advantage.

 

Secondly, sabres get a 20% boost but this is applied to their lower base damage:

 

Sabre: 11-16 base (13.5 avg), +20% Sabre, +20% Spirit of Decay, +45% Superb, +30% Might, +50% Sneak Attack, +100% Deathblows (total +265%)

So damage is (11 - 16)*(100% base + 265% bonus) = (11 - 16)*(3.65) = 40.15 - 58.40

 

Great sword: 14-20 base (17 avg), +15% Two Handed Style, +45% Superb, +30% Might, +50% Sneak Attack, +100% Deathblows (total +240%)

So damage is (14 - 20)*(100% base + 240% bonus) = (14 - 20)*(3.40) = 47.60 - 68.0

 

As you can see, if attack speed is the same, Greatswords will do more damage per second since their damage per hit is higher. Whether attack speed is the same, and if not, how different it is, is another problem.

[firkraag888]

Well autoattack DPS and Full Attack abilities are two different things. Autoattacks even when dual wielding strike with each weapon one at a time. There is a normal recovery between each strike, as is the case with two handed weapons. That recovery is modified and can be reduced by talents, abilities, gear, etc

 

Full Attacks, you are correct, strike with all equipped weapons, and generally give dual wielders an advantage.

 

Secondly, sabres get a 20% boost but this is applied to their lower base damage:

 

Sabre: 11-16 base (13.5 avg), +20% Sabre, +20% Spirit of Decay, +45% Superb, +30% Might, +50% Sneak Attack, +100% Deathblows (total +265%)

So damage is (11 - 16)*(100% base + 265% bonus) = (11 - 16)*(3.65) = 40.15 - 58.40

 

Great sword: 14-20 base (17 avg), +15% Two Handed Style, +45% Superb, +30% Might, +50% Sneak Attack, +100% Deathblows (total +240%)

So damage is (14 - 20)*(100% base + 240% bonus) = (14 - 20)*(3.40) = 47.60 - 68.0

 

As you can see, if attack speed is the same, Greatswords will do more damage per second since their damage per hit is higher. Whether attack speed is the same, and if not, how different it is, is another problem.

yeah but you attack twice with the sabre in the same time the greatsword does if you are dual wielding (actually I think it is even quicker then twice because of the dual weild talent)

 

so times the sabre damage  2.2 and you are right

 

that's 128.48 Dual wielding bittercut

 

to

 

68 damage with above greatsword

Edited March 28, 2017 by firkraag888