Priest/paladins and deities and orders

[PugPug]

Some combinations may be unlikely roleplaying choices, but there aren't any that should be outright forbidden, are there?

 

Goldpact Knights worshippers of Berath have the most synergy, with both favoring rational and stoic.

 

Darcozzi Paladini and followers of Magran favor being clever, but the Darcozzi favor being passionate while Magran followers condemn it.

 

Kind Wayfarers condemn being deceptive and cruel, while followers of Skaen favor it. Followers of Skaen also condemn the Kind Wayfarers' benevolence but don't care one way or the other about them being passionate.

[eselle28]

I'm inclined to say that none of them should be forbidden. POE allows people to make other poor optimization choices when it comes to things like stats and talents. A person who decides to multiclass a priest of Skaen and a Kind Wayfarer (or a priest of Eothas and a Bleak Walker) has plenty of in game warning that those choices are going to clash with each other ideologically. I would imagine that the only person who'd consider those combinations would be someone roleplaying a character who decided to radically change their ways partway through the game, which might realistically come with something less than the full backing of the abandoned god or order.

[blotter]

but there aren't any that should be outright forbidden, are there?

 

There are. Or at least, the current plan is to restrict multiclassing in regards to paladin order and priest deity choices that involve conflicting favored/condemned dispositions. Sawyer's reasoning in Q&A 4 (https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/5vsoiy/pillars_of_eternity_ii_deadfire_qa_4_transcript/) was primarily that it sabotages the character and secondarily that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

In regards to the former, the Untroubled Faith talent takes care of that. In regards to the latter, it's debatable. Like eselle28 mentioned, there are those characters who turn over a new leaf for themselves, and for others, there can be potential intersections in dogma and themes between even ostensibly opposed belief sets; considering the violence of Eothasians on the warpath during the Saint's War, it doesn't seem like it should be impossible for a priest of Eothas to multiclass as a Bleak Walker. Similarly, the Magranite doctrine laid out in Excerpts from the Sermon of Struggle, particularly the part about not yearning for conflict but having the determination to thrive amidst it and to resolve it quickly, doesn't sound like it'd be fatally out of line with what the Shieldbearers of St Elcga practice.

Edited March 12, 2017 by blotter

[eselle28]

Ah, good to know. Though I do hope that limiting the restriction to diametrically opposed orders and gods is limited only to extremes where there's more than one trait in conflict, and not to partial incompatibilities. I am still inclined to say that I suspect it would be hard for a player to make Eothesian Bleak Walker without either choosing at random or knowing that their character would be at a disadvantage.

[blotter]

Well, Sawyer does mention the restriction in relation to the orders/deities having two opposed dispositions, but unless I'm missing any other pairs, that would mean that the only priest/paladin restriction that exists is for priests of Skaen who are trying to become Kind Wayfarers or vice versa. I'd have trouble making sense of the Kind Wayfarer/Skaen combination outside of a redemption or corruption scenario, but I'm not willing to state that it's absolutely impossible to come up with some other coherent explanation for it.

 

Cruelty is condemned by the Eothasian faith, but they don't have a problem with aggression, so that would allow Bleak Walkers of Eothas to exist alongside Shieldbearers of Magran and Skaenite Darcozzi Paladins (which actually could make some sense if their reverence for Old Vailian culture led them to scheme to undermine and supplant the Republics to allow for its resurgence).

 

(Edit: The above only applies if the requirement is that both of one order/deity's favored dispositions fall under the other's condemned dispositions. Thinking about it further, it occurs to me that this is certainly not the only way for these combinations to have multiple clashing dispositions.)

Edited March 12, 2017 by blotter

[Androoh]

Wouldn't Goldpact paladins be more likely to be followers of Abydon, given he's about the preservation of culture, industry & trades etc?
 

[blotter]

 

 

Wouldn't Goldpact paladins be more likely to be followers of Abydon, given he's about the preservation of culture, industry & trades etc?

 

The OP probably didn't mention them since you can't play as a priest of Abydon and the developers have no plans to add any new deities to choose from in Pillars 2. The only parts of Abydon's portfolio (Industry, Machines, Golems, Smiths, Skilled Trades, Apprenticeship, Strength, Mining and Metals, Hope, Aspiration) that specifically coincide with the Goldpact Knights overall are Skilled Trades (if mercenaries are considered to fall within this category) and Strength, though they probably have their own smiths would align more closely with the broader portfolio as well. Magran seems like the most thematically appropriate choice given their status as inveterate mercenaries, but I suppose it could be argued that with their slavish devotion to contracts, the Goldpact Knights might see themselves more as their employers' weapons than as warriors per se (which might be another point in favor of Abydon).

[FlintlockJazz]

If a Priest of Skaen was trying to turn over a new leaf then they no longer believe in the tenants of their religion, so therefore should be penalised in their use of Skaen abilities anyway, hell they should probably lose their Priest levels or change to a new religion since the powers of the priest are powered by their belief and conviction.

[blotter]

 

 

If a Priest of Skaen was trying to turn over a new leaf then they no longer believe in the tenants of their religion

 

It's less about the tenets of the religion and more about how the priest interprets them, otherwise the Untroubled Faith talent wouldn't be possible. Even in the absence of veneration, a former Skaenite who fully recants may still fear that for all their efforts to change, at their core, they are still the same murderous insurrectionist that they were before their change of heart. This fear can amount to a conviction of sorts regarding who they are and what they capable of, accounting for their continued access to their priestly abilities (which aren't dependent on adherence to formal religious decrees or even the will of the god you claim to worship in PoE). The inherent conflicts between the beliefs that the character holds would also be accounted for by any loss in power in regards to Faith and Conviction/Divine Radiance unless the character takes the aforementioned talent.

 

I don't see the need for the developers to enforce anything beyond that, least of all when they have no plans to prevent these characters from actually behaving in ways that violate the tenets of their order or deity.

[PugPug]

The only problem I see with preventing combos is that some people may want particular talents from a priest deity and paladin order, and maybe they don't care about the disposition bonuses/penalties.

 

Still, perhaps they should be prevented anyway. Like a dungeon master enforcing some semblance of role playing.

 

Also, I would probably delete the Untroubled Faith talent. It's a total munchkin move. You have to do mental acrobatics to try to justify it. Paladins are traditionally held to a strict code, anyway.

Edited March 12, 2017 by PugPug

[tinysalamander]

Also, I would probably delete the Untroubled Faith talent. It's a total munchkin move. You have to do mental acrobatics to try to justify it. Paladins are traditionally held to a strict code, anyway.

 

Because surely you can’t lie to save someone if you are a “follower” of Eothas, sure. In Eora it’s all in your mind (soul), gods are just “easy” ideals to aspire to.

[blotter]

Still, perhaps they should be prevented anyway. Like a dungeon master enforcing some semblance of role playing.

 

Which they won't be doing. In the same Q&A I linked earlier, Sawyer stated that they have no intention of prohibiting people from player characters who are both Honest and Deceptive (or Shady, now), for example, and presumably the same applies for other conflicting dispositions. And to reiterate, there are no plans to keep you from playing your Kind Wayfarer as the most vicious depraved bastard in Eora regardless of what god he follows, or your priest of Wael as a paragon of rational thought and forthright honesty irrespective paladin order.

 

 

 

Also, I would probably delete the Untroubled Faith talent. It's a total munchkin move.

 

For munchkins who suck at being munchkins, maybe. Munchkins generally want to use their resources to increase their power, not to offset penalties they wouldn't have to deal with at all if they had simply chosen another build to begin with.

Edited March 12, 2017 by blotter

[eselle28]

 

Still, perhaps they should be prevented anyway. Like a dungeon master enforcing some semblance of role playing.

 

Which they won't be doing. In the same Q&A I linked earlier, Sawyer stated that they have no intention of prohibiting people from player characters who are both Honest and Deceptive (or Shady, now), for example, and presumably the same applies for other conflicting dispositions. And to reiterate, there are no plans to keep you from playing your Kind Wayfarer as the most vicious depraved bastard in Eora regardless of what god he follows, or your priest of Wael as a paragon of rational thought and forthright honesty irrespective paladin order.

 

I'm happy they've gone this route. It's entirely possible to be both Honest and Deceptive. You could be secretive about your background but honest about your intentions, or blunt and forthright but willing to lie occasionally to protect others. An actual GM can (sometimes...) handle that sort of nuance, but I think we're a long way from an RPG that can do so.

[Heijoushin]

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a character to have opposite reputations. I mean, no one is honest 100% of the time or deceptive 100% of the time. It's a little of each, depending who you're talking to. In fact, I would argue that its only a true fanatic that manages to act the same way every single time.

 

On the other hand Blotter, I'm not sure if I buy your argument about playing opposing beliefs with the idea that "the character is turning over a new leaf". Even if the reformed Skaenite has insecurities that he's a murderous douchebag at heart, surely he's trying not to be one. So he should probably give up those dirty Skaenite powers. In one of the endings...

I can't remember exactly, but doesn't Durance give up on Magran and stop using her powers?

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Heijoushin

[eselle28]

 

 I can't remember exactly, but doesn't Durance give up on Magran and stop using her powers?

 

 

 

He does....but voluntarily and only after his mission is finished. Also, he's Durance. Not everyone's PC is like Durance. I'm not sure if anyone's PC is like Durance.

 

 

If powers are given up by the user rather than revoked by the god, I can see turning-over-a-new-leaf characters realistically choosing to keep them. People who change ideals later in life don't typically surrender the skills they learned during their earlier, regretted life, especially if those skills don't conflict with their current ideals. So, perhaps, the penalty should be losing out on Skaen-specific spells, but not ones that do things that for instance heal companions or harm random enemies?

 

Though that may end up being extra programming for an option only a few people will be interested in, which could justify some restrictions, I suppose.

[blotter]

 

 

On the other hand Blotter, I'm not sure if I buy your argument about playing opposing beliefs with the idea that "the character is turning over a new leaf". Even if the reformed Skaenite has insecurities that he's a murderous douchebag at heart, surely he's trying not to be one. So he should probably give up those dirty Skaenite powers.

 

He probably should give them up, but that's a matter of volition rather than necessity. A frequent and powerful theme of redemption tales is the temptation to relapse, but that only works if relapse is actually possible. Conversely, if the player wanted their character to make a clean and decisive break from their past, then maybe they can by respeccing the character (I'm honestly not sure how completely we'll be able to clean the slate, but if nothing else, they could skew the balance well in favor of whatever other class they've adopted). However, I'm of the mind that it should be the player's choice. People will come up with character concepts that may or may not pass your/my/a developer's smell test, but they shouldn't have to in order to have the right to play their character.

 

Honestly, I'd like to see apostasy/conversion routes for priests and paladins to reflect the sort of transformation FlintlockJazz was talking about. But it's obvious that the developers can't afford to sink that much time and resources into those classes. Well, there may be some space for disposition checks that highlight the conflict between traditional beliefs and the character's behavior, and I say the more of that, the better.

 

I also have no personal interest in making a redeemed Skaenite or a corrupted Kind Wayfarer (for the time being anyway), but given the preexisting potential for contradiction (with or without role-playing intent on the player's part) through dispositions, backgrounds (e.g., how does an orlan aristocrat with royal blood from Aedyr come close to making sense?), or the inevitable possibility of other contradictory in-game behaviors that won't tracked by factions, reputations, or companions, drawing the line at weird priest/paladin multiclass options seems pointless and misguided to me.

[PugPug]

Of course a character who is honest can occasionally lie, a mean person can occasionally help someone, etc. Doing that won't appreciably change a character's disposition anyway.

 

But following a god or an order is done with religious conviction.

 

And, as has been pointed out, it is the reason they are granted divine power. If you are joining a cult that works against the will of your god, you should be stripped of divine magic entirely.

 

 

 

Also, I would probably delete the Untroubled Faith talent. It's a total munchkin move.

 

For munchkins who suck at being munchkins, maybe. Munchkins generally want to use their resources to increase their power, not to offset penalties they wouldn't have to deal with at all if they had simply chosen another build to begin with.

 

 

 

I guess I'm using a broader definition.

[Baltic]

Of course a character who is honest can occasionally lie, a mean person can occasionally help someone, etc. Doing that won't appreciably change a character's disposition anyway.

 

But following a god or an order is done with religious conviction.

 

And, as has been pointed out, it is the reason they are granted divine power. If you are joining a cult that works against the will of your god, you should be stripped of divine magic entirely.

 

 

 

One thing of note is that you can gain a rank in a disposition by acting that way twice.

 

Religious conviction is the source of a priest or paladin's power not the god or order. It is the person's belief in the god or order that gives them their power not the god or order themselves. If a person believed that they still served their god even whilst doing things that went against that god usually preferred their actions, then they could still access those powers.

 

 

[blotter]

If a person believed that they still served their god even whilst doing things that went against that god usually preferred their actions, then they could still access those powers.

 

And we already prominent examples of more flexible interpretations of condemned behaviors within the game's lore. St. Waidwen became obsessed with rooting out corruption and heresy within the ranks of his people, not only persecuting those who had the temerity to worship other gods but only those who shared his own faith "for mere perceptions of heresy" (http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/The_Saint%27s_War,_Part_1:_Overthrow). And then there's Readceras itself, which by all indications in Pillars 1 has a thriving slave trade. Granted, we don't know that Waidwen was a priest himself, but we know that he was the mortal host for a god and even then he was able to initiate pogroms that had vast numbers of Readcerans fleeing the nation become refugees in other areas, Dyrwood in particular. Similarly, while Readceras is obviously not 100% populated by priests, it is governed by Eothasian priests, who apparently don't have a problem with the nation's practice of keeping slaves and trading them elsewhere. Arguably, the Woedican faith provides an another example via the Leaden Key, which practices animancy on a scale that's probably unrivaled by anyone but the Engwithans despite considering it blasphemy, regularly violates the laws of nations in which it is present, and probably has members who broke more than their fair share of oaths to others in the process in furthering their goddess' aims.

 

Obviously, you won't find a case among the above where the people in question didn't adopt some line of reasoning that made this okay despite the abundant potential for conflict between their actions and their beliefs, and that's precisely the point: it's the followers who set the terms of their belief here, not the churches they identify with or the gods they profess to worship. No one "grants" priests their power and only they can strip themselves of it. So what if the ways in which they justify themselves amount to "mental acrobatics"? Religious orders and practitioners alike in our world have long and storied histories of engaging in just that to spin mortal sins as acts of worship. Why should it be any different in Eora?

Edited March 13, 2017 by blotter

[Heijoushin]

If powers are given up by the user rather than revoked by the god, I can see turning-over-a-new-leaf characters realistically choosing to keep them. People who change ideals later in life don't typically surrender the skills they learned during their earlier, regretted life, especially if those skills don't conflict with their current ideals. So, perhaps, the penalty should be losing out on Skaen-specific spells, but not ones that do things that for instance heal companions or harm random enemies?

 

Though that may end up being extra programming for an option only a few people will be interested in, which could justify some restrictions, I suppose.

 

I don't know. Sure, if you quit an occupation, then you retain your skills. But if you quit your priesthood in a fantasy universe, it strikes me that the Gods should cut you off from your powers. But I guess the Durance case proves that's not how it works in Eora.

 

Yes, regrettably they can't spend so much programming time on fine-tuning this little philosophical issue.

 

 e.g., how does an orlan aristocrat with royal blood from Aedyr come close to making sense?

 

Haha, you have a good point there. I also recently replayed the first section of PoE, and was very amused at how dry Calisca's reaction to your royal heritage is.

 

PC: *Dramatic tones* Royal blood flows through my veins... but jealous relatives whispered in my father's ear and I was disinherited!

Calisca: Aw shucks! You can't trust any folks nowadays.

[tinysalamander]

I don't know. Sure, if you quit an occupation, then you retain your skills. But if you quit your priesthood in a fantasy universe, it strikes me that the Gods should cut you off from your powers. But I guess the Durance case proves that's not how it works in Eora.

Eora gods do not grant priests their abilities. There is nothing to cut.

[Heijoushin]

Eora gods do not grant priests their abilities. There is nothing to cut.

 

What!? Thaos was right! The Gods are not real pretty damn useless.

 

So where do they get their abilities from? Do they... draw energy from their souls by any chance? (The standard PoE explanation)

Edited March 15, 2017 by Heijoushin

[White Phoenix]

 

Eora gods do not grant priests their abilities. There is nothing to cut.

 

What!? Thaos was right! The Gods are not real pretty damn useless.

 

So where do they get their abilities from? Do they... draw energy from their souls by any chance? (The standard PoE explanation)

 

From faith. That's their power source.