Things you want PoE 2 to specifically avoid if possible

[Fenixp]

You don't think being physically strong is an odd requirement for a Wizard to be able to throw potent fireballs?

I think it's odd that a person in otherwise fairly close-to-life setting can create fire in his hands.

 

Barring that, I think it's odd that a person can produce fire that burns people more than fire other people can produce from their hands, considering heat of a flame is based on burning material (well not only that, but mainly in our atmosphere and considering both battling mages share roughly the same atmospheric pressure)

 

At this point, I don't really mind if I'm explaining away whether fireballs burn hotter thanks to bodily mass or thanks to being made smarter.

 

Incidentally, what I do find odd is that a person with more might shoots bullets out of their guns that do more damage than that of a person with less might. But I suppose nonsensical ranged damage scaling with an attribute of some description is at this point entrenched so deeply into RPG player's mindset that most don't mind.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Fenixp

[rjshae]

 

 

Why is this even such a hot debate? There is no right or wrong here.

This quote contains both the question and answer to that question :-P Debates with easy right answers aren't particularly interesting, eh? And as I pointed out, you can absolutely create a mage with low Might value - he's just not going to be very good at throwing fireballs everywhere. Which is fine as making sacrifices is one of the cornerstones of RPGs, isn't it?

You don't think being physically strong is an odd requirement for a Wizard to be able to throw potent fireballs?

 

Don't you think it would depend on the setting and the physical laws for that environment? If you want to be "realistic" about magic, then an important consideration is internal consistency. I believe that is satisfied in this case. To me the only odd thing is in thinking that a particular relationship from one game and setting (D&D-like magical mythology in a western European-like world) should be satisfied by an entirely different game and setting (PoE in Eora). I don't know if the developers intend to make the PoE game rules a universal system, but in that case this concern could be dealt with appropriately through a different balancing mechanic. For right now though, it only needs to work for one setting and one system of magic.

[Katarack21]

Good to see NinjaMisogynist is at the same level of tact and deep thought as he was *before* I blocked his ass.

On other, more important, matters--Might isn't Strength. It *can* be strength, but it *isn't* Strength. It's Might. It works differently and at the end of the day, you decide how big of a problem that is for you.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Katarack21

[rjshae]

Incidentally, what I do find odd is that a person with more might shoots bullets out of their guns that do more damage than that of a person with less might. But I suppose nonsensical ranged damage scaling with an attribute of some description is at this point entrenched so deeply into RPG player's mindset that most don't mind.

 

Yes, that part is a little odd. The same with crossbows. Perhaps it's another one of those abstractions used to avoid messy implementation details like applying damage limits to various weapons?

[Ninjamestari]

Don't you think it would depend on the setting and the physical laws for that environment? If you want to be "realistic" about magic, then an important consideration is internal consistency. I believe that is satisfied in this case. To me the only odd thing is in thinking that a particular relationship from one game and setting (D&D-like magical mythology in a western European-like world) should be satisfied by an entirely different game and setting (PoE in Eora). I don't know if the developers intend to make the PoE game rules a universal system, but in that case this concern could be dealt with appropriately through a different balancing mechanic. For right now though, it only needs to work for one setting and one system of magic.

 

 

Yeah, no one is arguing that Might doesn't work the way it is intended, people are arguing that the intention is wrong in the first place. People don't want a world where physical and mental prowess are bound to the same stat. This has been explained quite a few times already, and it's quite dishonest to keep ignoring it.

[rjshae]

On other, more important, matters--Might isn't strength. It *can* be strength, but it *isn't* strength. It's Might. It works differently and at the end of the day, you decide how big of a problem that is for you.

 

It's a matter of semantics really. All of the PoE attributes represent more than one thing.

 

Good to see NinjaMisogynist is at the same level of tact and deep thought as he was *before* I blocked his ass.

 

Aye, I think I'll follow your example. *clunk*

Edited April 10, 2017 by rjshae

[Fenixp]

Yes, that part is a little odd. The same with crossbows. Perhaps it's another one of those abstractions used to avoid messy implementation details like applying damage limits to various weapons?

I'd say, simply put, that there's an attribute that's supposed to affect all direct HP modifications your characters cause, and that's enough justification for me.

 

I'm just baffled that people would go out of their way to explain why can't there be a direct link between strength and spell damage in spite of magic being ... Well, made-up and with no point of comparison to the gritty reality we have all experienced, yet don't really mind that there is a link between Might and crossbow/firearm damage where we do know for a fact that's just not how those work. Well unless you throw a gun really hard at someone while firing it, thus adding some velocity to the bullet. But it's a talent with rather low ACC.

 

As I said tho, I'm not complaining - I'm used to playing board games, so clarity of ruleset always trumps the theme. Which means that Pillars of Eternity still leaves me with a lot to desire. But not in department of Attributes which are all 100% clear. Lovely. I do hope Deadfire goes further in that direction and finally comes up with a RPG ruleset that's actually intuitive in all of its aspects, that'd be nice.

[Baltic]

 

Yes, that part is a little odd. The same with crossbows. Perhaps it's another one of those abstractions used to avoid messy implementation details like applying damage limits to various weapons?

I'd say, simply put, that there's an attribute that's supposed to affect all direct HP modifications your characters cause, and that's enough justification for me.I'm just baffled that people would go out of their way to explain why can't there be a direct link between strength and spell damage in spite of magic being ... Well, made-up and with no point of comparison to the gritty reality we have all experienced, yet don't really mind that there is a link between Might and crossbow/firearm damage where we do know for a fact that's just not how those work. Well unless you throw a gun really hard at someone while firing it, thus adding some velocity to the bullet. But it's a talent with rather low ACC.As I said tho, I'm not complaining - I'm used to playing board games, so clarity of ruleset always trumps the theme. Which means that Pillars of Eternity still leaves me with a lot to desire. But not in department of Attributes which are all 100% clear. Lovely. I do hope Deadfire goes further in that direction and finally comes up with a RPG ruleset that's actually intuitive in all of its aspects, that'd be nice.

This is probably overthinking it, but if high might makes you good at magic you theoretically could magically influence bolts and bullets, right?

[Katarack21]

 

 

Yes, that part is a little odd. The same with crossbows. Perhaps it's another one of those abstractions used to avoid messy implementation details like applying damage limits to various weapons?

I'd say, simply put, that there's an attribute that's supposed to affect all direct HP modifications your characters cause, and that's enough justification for me.I'm just baffled that people would go out of their way to explain why can't there be a direct link between strength and spell damage in spite of magic being ... Well, made-up and with no point of comparison to the gritty reality we have all experienced, yet don't really mind that there is a link between Might and crossbow/firearm damage where we do know for a fact that's just not how those work. Well unless you throw a gun really hard at someone while firing it, thus adding some velocity to the bullet. But it's a talent with rather low ACC.As I said tho, I'm not complaining - I'm used to playing board games, so clarity of ruleset always trumps the theme. Which means that Pillars of Eternity still leaves me with a lot to desire. But not in department of Attributes which are all 100% clear. Lovely. I do hope Deadfire goes further in that direction and finally comes up with a RPG ruleset that's actually intuitive in all of its aspects, that'd be nice.

This is probably overthinking it, but if high might makes you good at magic you theoretically could magically influence bolts and bullets, right?

 

That is *literally* how the lore works, actually! High might means strong soul power, and fighters *actually use their soul power* to make their strikes.

[rjshae]

^ Yes, that makes sense. I wonder though about the "shattered soul" concept that was discussed early on in the development of PoE. Shouldn't non-party members have more difficulty applying their might in this manner?

[Fenixp]

This is probably overthinking it, but if high might makes you good at magic you theoretically could magically influence bolts and bullets, right?

I'm perfectly fine with this.

[Katarack21]

Basically the difference between an 18 Might Wizard and an 18 Might Fighter is in training. The fighter has trained to use their soul power one way, and the wizard another way.

That's literally it. Different applications of the same underlying capability. How else do you think a fighter can knock down a freaking 10 foot tall ogre (whose attacking with a literal tree as a club!) with a stiletto?!

[Gromnir]

recognizing how the poe attributes is often abstractions owing more to game balance concerns than to any kinda real life quality is so 2012. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PizzaSHARK]

Basically the difference between an 18 Might Wizard and an 18 Might Fighter is in training. The fighter has trained to use their soul power one way, and the wizard another way.

 

That's literally it. Different applications of the same underlying capability. How else do you think a fighter can knock down a freaking 10 foot tall ogre (whose attacking with a literal tree as a club!) with a stiletto?!

 

Jam it into the back of its knee or ankle.  Evade the swing, jab it into the wrist or elbow.  Get in close and go for the deep veins and arteries in the inner leg (assuming ogre anatomy is roughly analogous to human.)  Stats are just abstractions.

 

Do we have actual confirmation of the "soul power" thing, or is this just us trying to fix the plot hole the game left us with?

[Aleh1811]

In game description for might is:

 

Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic. During interactions, it can be useful for intimidating displays and acts of brute force. In combat, it contributes to both Damage and Healing as well as the Fortitude defense.

 

So somehow or another physical strength in the Pillars of Eternity universe seems to stand for muscles and spiritual strength.  There could be a handwave to this (something like a body-soul interface that requires physical strength to channel the full magical spiritual strength safely or something while mental strength allows one to channel for longer whatever amount of energy ones strength allows to be funneled through the body) but I'm not sure one is ever made in the game.

 

 

The way i see it is that the power of  a person's soul can be channelled as both magic or physical strength. There are differences in muscular physical strength between individuals, but they are minimal in comparison to the differences that channeling your soul power can generate.

 

[Katarack21]

 

Basically the difference between an 18 Might Wizard and an 18 Might Fighter is in training. The fighter has trained to use their soul power one way, and the wizard another way.

 

That's literally it. Different applications of the same underlying capability. How else do you think a fighter can knock down a freaking 10 foot tall ogre (whose attacking with a literal tree as a club!) with a stiletto?!

 

Jam it into the back of its knee or ankle.  Evade the swing, jab it into the wrist or elbow.  Get in close and go for the deep veins and arteries in the inner leg (assuming ogre anatomy is roughly analogous to human.)  Stats are just abstractions.

 

Do we have actual confirmation of the "soul power" thing, or is this just us trying to fix the plot hole the game left us with?

 

No, that's literally from the guidebook. And that's also the definition of the "hobble" effect, btw.

[PizzaSHARK]

 

In game description for might is:

 

Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic. During interactions, it can be useful for intimidating displays and acts of brute force. In combat, it contributes to both Damage and Healing as well as the Fortitude defense.

 

So somehow or another physical strength in the Pillars of Eternity universe seems to stand for muscles and spiritual strength.  There could be a handwave to this (something like a body-soul interface that requires physical strength to channel the full magical spiritual strength safely or something while mental strength allows one to channel for longer whatever amount of energy ones strength allows to be funneled through the body) but I'm not sure one is ever made in the game.

 

 

The way i see it is that the power of  a person's soul can be channelled as both magic or physical strength. There are differences in muscular physical strength between individuals, but they are minimal in comparison to the differences that channeling your soul power can generate.

 

 

 

So the power of the soul overrides physical laws, or does Eora has physical laws that are different from our own?

 

 

 

 

Basically the difference between an 18 Might Wizard and an 18 Might Fighter is in training. The fighter has trained to use their soul power one way, and the wizard another way.

 

That's literally it. Different applications of the same underlying capability. How else do you think a fighter can knock down a freaking 10 foot tall ogre (whose attacking with a literal tree as a club!) with a stiletto?!

 

Jam it into the back of its knee or ankle.  Evade the swing, jab it into the wrist or elbow.  Get in close and go for the deep veins and arteries in the inner leg (assuming ogre anatomy is roughly analogous to human.)  Stats are just abstractions.

 

Do we have actual confirmation of the "soul power" thing, or is this just us trying to fix the plot hole the game left us with?

 

No, that's literally from the guidebook. And that's also the definition of the "hobble" effect, btw.

 

 

Right, but that's how a man-sized creature would fight a creature many times their size.  You have to bring it down to a level where you can reach its vital organs (or an agile class might instead choose to climb onto it and seek out vital organs that way.)  Disabling it by attacking joints would be a primary means of doing this.

[Katarack21]

 

 

In game description for might is:

 

Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic. During interactions, it can be useful for intimidating displays and acts of brute force. In combat, it contributes to both Damage and Healing as well as the Fortitude defense.

 

So somehow or another physical strength in the Pillars of Eternity universe seems to stand for muscles and spiritual strength.  There could be a handwave to this (something like a body-soul interface that requires physical strength to channel the full magical spiritual strength safely or something while mental strength allows one to channel for longer whatever amount of energy ones strength allows to be funneled through the body) but I'm not sure one is ever made in the game.

 

 

The way i see it is that the power of  a person's soul can be channelled as both magic or physical strength. There are differences in muscular physical strength between individuals, but they are minimal in comparison to the differences that channeling your soul power can generate.

 

 

 

So the power of the soul overrides physical laws, or does Eora has physical laws that are different from our own?

 

 

 

 

Basically the difference between an 18 Might Wizard and an 18 Might Fighter is in training. The fighter has trained to use their soul power one way, and the wizard another way.

 

That's literally it. Different applications of the same underlying capability. How else do you think a fighter can knock down a freaking 10 foot tall ogre (whose attacking with a literal tree as a club!) with a stiletto?!

 

Jam it into the back of its knee or ankle.  Evade the swing, jab it into the wrist or elbow.  Get in close and go for the deep veins and arteries in the inner leg (assuming ogre anatomy is roughly analogous to human.)  Stats are just abstractions.

 

Do we have actual confirmation of the "soul power" thing, or is this just us trying to fix the plot hole the game left us with?

 

No, that's literally from the guidebook. And that's also the definition of the "hobble" effect, btw.

 

 

Right, but that's how a man-sized creature would fight a creature many times their size.  You have to bring it down to a level where you can reach its vital organs (or an agile class might instead choose to climb onto it and seek out vital organs that way.)  Disabling it by attacking joints would be a primary means of doing this.

 

Fair, but all I'm saying is that I feel if that was the intention then they'd probably have it have that effect instead of simply knocking them prone. The animation and the effect all imply that the sheer force of impact is knocking the targeted creature down, and that this is being done with a wooden stiletto works well with the lore of soul-power being used to power fighter strikes.