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So why does a game have to be a mirror that caters to me. It's almost insulting. You don't buy a game because you know every plot point and mechanic, you buy it to experience something unknown. No part of the consumer process promises everything that you are going to get. It's a voluntary transaction of which there are unknowns.

 

cRPGs are different from movies or books. In the latter you experience the content as provided. But with cRPGs, you expect to be able to make choices that change the experience according to your preferences within the context of the plot. Providing additional, minor choices to the player that don't significantly impact the plot is hardly insulting. It adds to player choices. It would hardly be forcing you to accept those choices -- just ignore them.

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Are we really going to equate "I would like to play a character with the same sexual orientation as mine" with "I don't want a male character to express interest in my male PC, even though I can tell him to buzz off and he's a jackass anyway"? Because, like. If we want to talk about strawman arguments, treating a simple request for non-heterosexual romance options on the same level as rewriting characters' sexual orientation or ethnic backgrounds is... up there.

 

Sure. If the game requires you to play a pre-generated character with a non-heterosexual preference, then modifying that would be game breaking, pointless, and stupid. But if you're generating your own character, why can't I expect to be able to tailor sexual preference at the start of a game? Surely that's a more important and relevant stat than setting the eye color?

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In CRPGs already give major choices. But that still doesn't preclude large swaths of predetermined content. I'm not changing the geology, cities, cultures. I'm not changing who I get to interact with. As far as I'm concerned it's laying out a world in which you are given autonomy in. It's not trying to let you play god and pre-seeding what that world might throw at you.

 

Now the idea of pre-tailoring a game is an interesting one. I don't think that has really ever been done. If a game did feature that, I'm sure that component would be heavily marketed.

 

In a CRPG you get to choose what content you experience, but all of that content is laid out prior to be potentially experienced based on player choice.

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Everybody who is a backer of Deadfire (both through the site and the fig thing) gets access to the open beta, right? So, then is the chance to air issues with the romance system if they exist. Right now, we don't know 100% how the whole mechanics work, so, we're going off of hypotheticals and examples in other games.

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In films and books *as well as* videogames the content is provided for you. Your choice is limited by the choices that are provided to you, and they ultimately guide you along a story and to a conclusion the game has planned for you. Videogames, like any other artform, can seek to explore certain themes or deliver certain messages, which the authors define through the events and encounters they place before you, and the choices they present to you (as well as their result, of course). Some *may* cater to you but they are under no obligation to do so, same as you are under no obligation to buy the game (it is merely convenient to do the former in exchange of more of the latter).

 

Ultimately, though, this whole 'entitlement' talk is kinda missing the point. If anyone is that desperate to see content removed from a game, they should mod it out themselves - but to demand it from the creators as if the game's existence is entirely based on your individual experience is complete bobbins. The authors make narrative-driven videogames because they want to *tell* something. It's up to you as to how you respond to what is being told, but it's not up to you to demand they tell what you want to hear or otherwise silence it.

 

So really, see injurai's post. :p

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Everybody who is a backer of Deadfire (both through the site and the fig thing) gets access to the open beta, right? So, then is the chance to air issues with the romance system if they exist. Right now, we don't know 100% how the whole mechanics work, so, we're going off of hypotheticals and examples in other games.

Well, everyone who backed on a high enough level or purchased extra early access add on.

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Everybody who is a backer of Deadfire (both through the site and the fig thing) gets access to the open beta, right? So, then is the chance to air issues with the romance system if they exist. Right now, we don't know 100% how the whole mechanics work, so, we're going off of hypotheticals and examples in other games.

Well, everyone who backed on a high enough level or purchased extra early access add on.

 

 

Oh, didn't really know for sure how their open beta proccess worked.

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Here's what I want for relationships (including romance) in Deadfire : no hand holding. When I first played BG2, I didn't show empathy to Aerie because I knew it would lead to romancing her, no, I did it because it seemed like the right thing to do in the circumstances and went well with me roleplaying my PC. Same thing with Viconia in my second playthrough (years later), I found her arrogant and wanted to show her that there was an alternative to her worldview. In no way were there little hearts to help me choose the romance path.

 

Deadfire should do the same, let players choose naturally how they want to answer, without letting them know in advance how NPCs will react. A diagram that records your actions is fine, I just prefer being faced with the least amount of meta information in dialogue. It makes for a richer and more fulfilling experience. Fifteen years later, I still remember these games in part because of the dialogue and the companion relationships. THAT'S what I want for Deadfire (which I'm sooooo looking forward to, my wife is going nuts)

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Here's what I want for relationships (including romance) in Deadfire : no hand holding. When I first played BG2, I didn't show empathy to Aerie because I knew it would lead to romancing her, no, I did it because it seemed like the right thing to do in the circumstances and went well with me roleplaying my PC. Same thing with Viconia in my second playthrough (years later), I found her arrogant and wanted to show her that there was an alternative to her worldview. In no way were there little hearts to help me choose the romance path.

 

Deadfire should do the same, let players choose naturally how they want to answer, without letting them know in advance how NPCs will react. A diagram that records your actions is fine, I just prefer being faced with the least amount of meta information in dialogue. It makes for a richer and more fulfilling experience. Fifteen years later, I still remember these games in part because of the dialogue and the companion relationships. THAT'S what I want for Deadfire (which I'm sooooo looking forward to, my wife is going nuts)

 

On that note, taking Aerie and Viconia as an example, if they were Deadfire characters I would want to be able to show them the beauty of the world without having to romance them first in order to do that.

 

Of course (very deep) friendship is not the same as actual romance and they should have different effects on characters.

 

And I can see that romance can make feel Aerie like she's flying again which actually helps to overcome the loss of her wings.

 

Still I would want to be able to show empathy to Aerie and Viconia without necessarily having this to lead to romance . And I would want them to acknowledge that.

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A guy raged that a male romance option made the first move on him in Dragon Age 2. He wrote that games are for straight guys and he shouldn't have to deal with this gay stuff. He thought he was entitled that all games be made to suit him, because they always had been.

 

Hmm. He pays for the games. Why shouldn't he expect that games be made for him? It's the same with every other consumer product. Calling it "entitlement" makes it sound like he's just supposed to accept whatever he is given without complaint. No, it doesn't work that way.

 

That guy wanted to removed gay content because he didn't want to deal with it.

Should women be removed from games because sexist customers ask for it?

Should people of colour be removed from games because racist customers demand it?

 

 

Oh sure, use straw man tactics.  :p  :p  :p

 

Right then, for the sake of discussion, I'll say yes. Sure it can be ugly... possibly even very ugly. But I think the player should be given a certain amount of leeway to customize a game experience to their preferences. The developers already have to take into account certain national preferences when developing their games. Why not convert that into a set of configurable options? Why shouldn't a man of African heritage have the option to convert the entire cast into people of color? He paid for the game. Why shouldn't a lesbian have the option to convert all romances into lesbian romances?

 

The angry guy I mentioned was a straight guy who wanted gay content removed. He was enraged by it. He was a homophobe. It's hatred. Asking for gay characters is asking to be included. It's not asking to exclude and devalue other people. Like MortyTheGobbo said it's not the same.

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When I went to The Force Awakens, I went expecting Star Wars and an honest effort at creating a good film that respects that established universe. I didn't go in expecting it to cater to me. I don't want it to cater to me, I want it to tell a story that unfolds before me.

 

So why does a game have to be a mirror that caters to me. It's almost insulting. You don't buy a game because you know every plot point and mechanic, you buy it to experience something unknown. No part of the consumer process promises everything that you are going to get. It's a voluntary transaction of which there are unknowns.

 

Man speaking about representation. Everyone is so transfixed on identities. But were are the traditional Turkish, Indian, non-diaspora Blacks that aren't historic set pieces? Entitlement even exists in the less represented but still represented identity groups. Very few people want to embody a universal ideal, they just want to live in an epoch of their own golden age. It's a bad mentality, entitlement.

Dominant, athletic, tough, independent, win against the odds, be the hero, get the girl. The archetype of a man. What men should be like. What men want to be like.

Not all men, of course. Not as many as they used to be. But this is still a widespread ideal.

 

Do you think it's a coincidence that so many movies, games and other media have straight white male protagonists? Do you think the same types of characters over and over make for the best and new experiences?

 

Do you think it's fun for women to see themselves portrayed as damsels to be rescued or sexy prizes to be won again and again? Do you not understand how empowering it feels then to be a heroine who isn't reduced to her attractiveness?

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When I went to The Force Awakens, I went expecting Star Wars and an honest effort at creating a good film that respects that established universe. I didn't go in expecting it to cater to me. I don't want it to cater to me, I want it to tell a story that unfolds before me.

 

So why does a game have to be a mirror that caters to me. It's almost insulting. You don't buy a game because you know every plot point and mechanic, you buy it to experience something unknown. No part of the consumer process promises everything that you are going to get. It's a voluntary transaction of which there are unknowns.

 

Man speaking about representation. Everyone is so transfixed on identities. But were are the traditional Turkish, Indian, non-diaspora Blacks that aren't historic set pieces? Entitlement even exists in the less represented but still represented identity groups. Very few people want to embody a universal ideal, they just want to live in an epoch of their own golden age. It's a bad mentality, entitlement.

Dominant, athletic, tough, independent, win against the odds, be the hero, get the girl. The archetype of a man. What men should be like. What men want to be like.

Not all men, of course. Not as many as they used to be. But this is still a widespread ideal.

 

Do you think it's a coincidence that so many movies, games and other media have straight white male protagonists? Do you think the same types of characters over and over make for the best and new experiences?

 

Do you think it's fun for women to see themselves portrayed as damsels to be rescued or sexy prizes to be won again and again? Do you not understand how empowering it feels then to be a heroine who isn't reduced to her attractiveness?

 

 

You haven't seen the Force Awakens right? The protagonists are a woman and a black man. The other recent star wars film had a female protagonist too and while both movies had strengths and weaknesses the main characters were according to most pretty awesome. Recently movies having a lot more diverse set of characters and I would argue that star wars is one of the best examples of how to do it right.

It is characters first and not diversity for the sake of diversity. It doesn't cater to a singular group of people, the sex, sexuality or race isn't really that important in the first place in Star wars.

 

The universe of poe is more complex, but it surly never was a straight white male power fantasy and we have no reason to believe deadfire will change that.

 

When it comes to romances I say Obsidian should stick to the characters. And sexuality is in one way or another an important part of many characters in poe. I for example wouldn't like Pallegina to openly flirt with my char because that is not her. And I also don't like player sexual companions for the sake of diversity. A good portrait of a gay or be character? Yeah anytime. Eder beeing my best bro and flirting with xoti in one game and in the next a romance able option for my male character? Feels forced and wrong to me.

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Dominant, athletic, tough, independent, win against the odds, be the hero, get the girl. The archetype of a man. What men should be like. What men want to be like.

Not all men, of course. Not as many as they used to be. But this is still a widespread ideal.

 

Do you think it's a coincidence that so many movies, games and other media have straight white male protagonists? Do you think the same types of characters over and over make for the best and new experiences?

 

Do you think it's fun for women to see themselves portrayed as damsels to be rescued or sexy prizes to be won again and again? Do you not understand how empowering it feels then to be a heroine who isn't reduced to her attractiveness?

 

In Pillars 1 you already have the opportunity to play a black, female homosexual if you wanted to. Women in the world of Pillars can (depending on the cultural background in the game) do everything men can. I can remember only one damsel in distress, which was the girl at Dyrford and which is totally valid as there were a lot of men in distress too. There are homosexual persons in the game, and at least one of the companions is. So for a game set in a medieval setting this is a good example of both equality and credibility. The only thing this thread asks for is an option to ****, I meant "romance" your homosexual companion. So please do not act as if we were talking about some sexist 80s sword and sorcery crap.

 

And I dont think that with "embodying an idea" injurai meant this kind of stuff either. I think he meant stuff like Planescape Torment. Does it matter what the nameless ones sex or sexual orientation is? It doesn't, because the game is more than just a flat escapist fantasy.

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Eder beeing my best bro and flirting with xoti in one game and in the next a romance able option for my male character? Feels forced and wrong to me.

 

This is, in my opinion, why "player sexuality" does not work.

 

Imagine Edér was player sexual. Meaning, if your main was female Edér was hetero, if your main was male, Edér would be gay.

 

Now imagine you play with a female char, I play with a male char.

 

The Edér in your game is hetero, the one in my game is gay.

 

To many people, there can be only one explanation that makes sense here: He MUST be bisexual. Because the Edér from your game and the one from my game must be the same person. All the Edérs from all different playthroughs must always be one and the same person.

 

Because of this line of thinking, many people misunderstand player sexual as bisexual.

 

That's why many people think the romance interests in Dragon Age 2 are bisexual. And that's why I think player sexuality does not work for many people.

 

A more important reason for me would be: Under what circumstances can you switch the sexuality of a character and he still stays the same? How can a gay Edér still be the same person, apart from his sexuality, as a hetero Edér?

 

And I would say a huge factor in that is, apart from family plans, how your environment reacts on the topic of being gay. If you live in a world where being gay is considered a sin, shameful or even that gays should be killed, it will have a massive effect on your personality if you are gay.

 

But in a society where gays and heteros are treated equally, and no one would raise an eyebrow, I don't think the gay Edér and the hetero one would be so different, family plans aside. That will always be a factor, like when he would want to start a family on his own.

 

Still the thought that you could take a characters sexuality, replace it, and that character would largely stay the same is rather very hard to imagine for me. I am speaking for myself here, but I think, that is because heterosexual and gay people are treated very differently in this, our world.

 

It's very hard to imagine that there could be a world where heterosexual and gay people are treated equally to such a degree that, they would largely be the same person (again: apart from their sexuality), whether they'd be gay, bi or hetero.

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But in a society where gays and heteros are treated equally, and no one would raise an eyebrow, I don't think the gay Edér and the hetero one would be so different, family plans aside. That will always be a factor, like when he would want to start a family on his own.

 

Still the thought that you could take a characters sexuality, replace it, and that character would largely stay the same is rather very hard to imagine for me. I am speaking for myself here, but I think, that is because heterosexual and gay people are treated very differently in this, our world.

 

It's very hard to imagine that there could be a world where heterosexual and gay people are treated equally to such a degree that, they would largely be the same person (again: apart from their sexuality), whether they'd be gay, bi or hetero.

 

 

Yes, how the world reacts to ones sexuality makes a big difference, but also how a character reacts to the world because of his sexuality.

 

Sexuality is of course more than just which gender you like, for example also the level of commitment you are willing to invest in a relationship, how experimental you are and how flirty you are. It is about who you envy, about jealousy and to some degree about power and violence too.

There are no fundamental differences in personality between gay, bi or hetero persons, but you would treat npcs and especially companions you spent months adventuring with differently.

 

Companion relations in deadfire a not only supposed to be player <--> companion, but also the companions between each other. Could you imagine the mess if they were all bi/player sexual? 

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But in a society where gays and heteros are treated equally, and no one would raise an eyebrow, I don't think the gay Edér and the hetero one would be so different, family plans aside. That will always be a factor, like when he would want to start a family on his own.

 

Somehow this conversation starts to be interesting.

 

I do not think, you are right. I think (I can only guess, as I am not gay and can only take my experience with women into account), that those two Eders would be different, or at least would act different depending on the MCs sex. I really try to act towards women as I would try to act towards men. Meaning, if I work together with a woman as my boss or coworker I'm trying to treat her with the same respect or disrespect as I would treat a man. When it's about hard work, I try not to spare women too much if I think they are able to do it and so on. But: I never have the impression that I am fully sucessful. I do treat women differently, no matter how much I try not to. I think if you see a person as a potential partner you will always do that. So I think the gay Eder will behave differently towards male or female characters than the straight Eder. Unless of course he lives in a vulcan world, were emotions dont interfere with your normal behaviour.

 

And there is more. It is not only about wether the world accepts Eders sexual orientation. It is about how his sexual orientiation is viewed in general. I assume that in our fantasy world gay people are still not 50% of the population, so they are the exception. Noone in our fantasy world sees that as a bad thing. But they still see it as something. Maybe they think Eder is a female soul trapped in a mans body. Or maybe he is viewed as being sexually very adventurous. But whatever the world thinks about him shapes his character in a certain way. If I choose to wear only black cloth, which is a relatively minor decision compared with my sexual orientation people will get a certain image about me. If I wear only bright colors, they will get another one. Depending on that, they will react to me and that will further shape who I am.

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When I went to The Force Awakens, I went expecting Star Wars and an honest effort at creating a good film that respects that established universe. I didn't go in expecting it to cater to me. I don't want it to cater to me, I want it to tell a story that unfolds before me.

 

So why does a game have to be a mirror that caters to me. It's almost insulting. You don't buy a game because you know every plot point and mechanic, you buy it to experience something unknown. No part of the consumer process promises everything that you are going to get. It's a voluntary transaction of which there are unknowns.

 

Man speaking about representation. Everyone is so transfixed on identities. But were are the traditional Turkish, Indian, non-diaspora Blacks that aren't historic set pieces? Entitlement even exists in the less represented but still represented identity groups. Very few people want to embody a universal ideal, they just want to live in an epoch of their own golden age. It's a bad mentality, entitlement.

Dominant, athletic, tough, independent, win against the odds, be the hero, get the girl. The archetype of a man. What men should be like. What men want to be like.

Not all men, of course. Not as many as they used to be. But this is still a widespread ideal.

 

Do you think it's a coincidence that so many movies, games and other media have straight white male protagonists? Do you think the same types of characters over and over make for the best and new experiences?

 

Do you think it's fun for women to see themselves portrayed as damsels to be rescued or sexy prizes to be won again and again? Do you not understand how empowering it feels then to be a heroine who isn't reduced to her attractiveness?

 

 

What's with the leading questions that don't at all relate or follow from what I was talking about?

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But in a society where gays and heteros are treated equally, and no one would raise an eyebrow, I don't think the gay Edér and the hetero one would be so different, family plans aside. That will always be a factor, like when he would want to start a family on his own.

 

Somehow this conversation starts to be interesting.

 

I do not think, you are right. I think (I can only guess, as I am not gay and can only take my experience with women into account), that those two Eders would be different, or at least would act different depending on the MCs sex. I really try to act towards women as I would try to act towards men. Meaning, if I work together with a woman as my boss or coworker I'm trying to treat her with the same respect or disrespect as I would treat a man. When it's about hard work, I try not to spare women too much if I think they are able to do it and so on. But: I never have the impression that I am fully sucessful. I do treat women differently, no matter how much I try not to. I think if you see a person as a potential partner you will always do that. So I think the gay Eder will behave differently towards male or female characters than the straight Eder. Unless of course he lives in a vulcan world, were emotions dont interfere with your normal behaviour.

 

 

This is what I tried to say here:

 

A more important reason for me would be: Under what circumstances can you switch the sexuality of a character and he still stays the same? How can a gay Edér still be the same person, apart from his sexuality, as a hetero Edér?

I said "apart from his sexuality" because obviously I agree with you that you would treat men and women differently if you are either gay or hetero. (Which would raise the interesting question about how and if bisexual people treat genders differently).

 

So I would want to talk about the differences in the personality of a hetero and a gay Edér APART from his sexuality. So in disregard of it.

 

Let's say the fantasy world was one which treated gays and heteros equally. Now you have a gay Edér and a hetero one.

Let's say Edér liked animals (which he in fact does), would that change if he changed his sexuality? If he had a favorite dish, would that change? If he believed in a certain God would that change by changing his sexuality? Would his intellect change? His charisma, his wisdom? Etc etc.

 

How much of a person would change, APART from the sexual behaviour, when you replace their sexuality, in a world where different sexualities are treated equally?

 

How much of a person is defined by their sexuality in a world that treats the sexualities equally? How much of that person OTHER than the behavior that is immediately linked to his sexuality?

 

Of course you would treat mean and women differently based on your sexuality. I mean in disregard of that.

I mean everything of a personality that has nothing to do with that.

 

How much would change?

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Do we have any actual examples of an NPC's sexual orientation changing based on the PC's gender? Usually, "player-sexual" means that the gender simply does not matter. Which is not quite the same thing.

 

In Dragon Age 2, which is one of the most well-known games with this approach, we've got four LIs. Isabela expresses her attraction to both men and women frequently, including her appearance in Origins. Merril is never interested in anyone except Hawke, even if unromanced. Fenris can hook up with Isabela if neither is romanced. Anders is controversial, because he had a male lover - the guy he tries and fails to save from being made Tranquil. But he never brings it up unless you romance him as a male Hawke. So I guess it'd make Meriil and Anders closest to what people refer to as "playersexual". This is tricky, of course, because bisexual people don't stop being bisexual if they don't constantly proclaim how they're into both sexes.

 

Are there any other examples? I can't think of any.

Edited by MortyTheGobbo
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Do we have any actual examples of an NPC's sexual orientation changing based on the PC's gender? Usually, "player-sexual" means that the gender simply does not matter. Which is not quite the same thing.

 

In Dragon Age 2, which is one of the most well-known games with this approach, we've got four LIs. Isabela expresses her attraction to both men and women frequently, including her appearance in Origins. Merril is never interested in anyone except Hawke, even if unromanced. Fenris can hook up with Isabela if neither is romanced. Anders is controversial, because he had a male lover - the guy he tries and fails to save from being made Tranquil. But he never brings it up unless you romance him as a male Hawke. So I guess it'd make Meriil and Anders closest to what people refer to as "playersexual". This is tricky, of course, because bisexual people don't stop being bisexual if they don't constantly proclaim how they're into both sexes.

 

Are there any other examples? I can't think of any.

 

edit: Nvm, misread.

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I said "apart from his sexuality" because obviously I agree with you that you would treat men and women differently if you are either gay or hetero. (Which would raise the interesting question about how and if bisexual people treat genders differently).

 

So I would want to talk about the differences in the personality of a hetero and a gay Edér APART from his sexuality. So in disregard of it.

 

Let's say the fantasy world was one which treated gays and heteros equally. Now you have a gay Edér and a hetero one.

Let's say Edér liked animals (which he in fact does), would that change if he changed his sexuality? If he had a favorite dish, would that change? If he believed in a certain God would that change by changing his sexuality? Would his intellect change? His charisma, his wisdom? Etc etc.

 

How much of a person would change, APART from the sexual behaviour, when you replace their sexuality, in a world where different sexualities are treated equally?

 

How much of a person is defined by their sexuality in a world that treats the sexualities equally? How much of that person OTHER than the behavior that is immediately linked to his sexuality?

 

Of course you would treat mean and women differently based on your sexuality. I mean in disregard of that.

I mean everything of a personality that has nothing to do with that.

 

How much would change?

 

If there are no stupid stereotypes involved there is no reason for him to suddenly dislike animals.

 

His favourite dish? I don't know. Maybe if the same thing that makes you homosexual changes your reception of taste, which sounds very unlikely.

 

His god. Now that's interesting. Eder chose the god of rebirth. Would he have chosen a different one, knowing that he will never reproduce? Or would he still have chosen Eothas just because of that fact? Wether or not, the choice itself would be influenced. So that would mean he indeed would be a different person.

 

Would his stats change? Now we reach psychological shoals. I think yes. Homosexual Eder (in reality) would have lived a totally different life with different partners and different milestones. Some of those would have made him wiser, more stubborn, whatever. In a game of course you can just assume that both Eders had the exact same life and all of their partners were the exact same just with a different sex.

 

If one would really want to answer such questions, one would have to do a detailed psychological profile of Eder which allows to say what influenced certain decisions or aspects of his personality. For example: Eder has this thing with his elder brother. Is that because he was a role model for him or because he has a strong bond with his family. If he was his role model, in what regard? Being honest or brave or strong? Being manly? What does manly mean in a world of perfect equality?

This conversation is a good example why a player sexual companion would not be very interesting. I could imagine a homosexual companion revolving around all of those questions (The question "how much would change" even reminds me of "what does one life matter"). A player sexual one would have the only benefit of being ****able. No space for exploring the psychological depth of this specific aspect of his/her character as it would have to work for the heterosexual one too.

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@Lord_Mord: Eder chose Eothas because that's what his family was doing. You find that out when talking about his family and his faith. Also, not sure why you're saying that Eder will never reproduce, some guys start a family later than others.

 

Also, while I talked about it in the deleted post, I think it's a good thing to discuss as far as companion sexuality. What about Aloth? We've been talking about Eder recently, but Aloth is going to be more of a challenge as he's more, well, complex. Aloth has the whole Iselmyr thing and we know Iselmyr is a woman, but what do we know of her sexuality and how will that affect Aloths interactions. The only times it seemed like Iselmyr flirted at someone is with Kana and again at Pallegina. However, two interactions with unclear intent isn't much to go on as far as establishing sexuality.

 

The question then becomes, how does Iselmyr's sexuality affect Aloth, or is it that we're seeing Iselmyr reflect Aloth's own sexuality? Aloth kind of almost becomes a metaphor for coming out gay or bisexual, if that's the path they take with Aloth.

Edited by smjjames
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@Lord_Mord: Eder chose Eothas because that's what his family was doing. You find that out when talking about his family and his faith. Also, not sure why you're saying that Eder will never reproduce, some guys start a family later than others.

 

I meant gay Eder :) As Eder does not seem to be the guy to pay a hooker for giving him a child, that would leave him with the option to adopt one. Would the god of rebirth still be fitting for Eder if nature/the gods didn't give him a suitable option to reproduce?

Edited by Lord_Mord

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We're all doomed

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@Lord_Mord: Eder chose Eothas because that's what his family was doing. You find that out when talking about his family and his faith. Also, not sure why you're saying that Eder will never reproduce, some guys start a family later than others.

 

I meant gay Eder :) As Eder does not seem to be the guy to pay a hooker for giving him a child, that would leave him with the option to adopt one. Would the god of rebirth still be fitting for Eder if nature/the gods didn't give him a suitable option to reproduce?

 

 

Eothas portfolio is more than just birth and rebirth though, and those two concepts can be interpreted in many ways.

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A guy raged that a male romance option made the first move on him in Dragon Age 2. He wrote that games are for straight guys and he shouldn't have to deal with this gay stuff. He thought he was entitled that all games be made to suit him, because they always had been.

 

Hmm. He pays for the games. Why shouldn't he expect that games be made for him? It's the same with every other consumer product. Calling it "entitlement" makes it sound like he's just supposed to accept whatever he is given without complaint. No, it doesn't work that way.

 

That guy wanted to removed gay content because he didn't want to deal with it.

Should women be removed from games because sexist customers ask for it?

Should people of colour be removed from games because racist customers demand it?

 

 

Oh sure, use straw man tactics.  :p  :p  :p

 

Right then, for the sake of discussion, I'll say yes. Sure it can be ugly... possibly even very ugly. But I think the player should be given a certain amount of leeway to customize a game experience to their preferences. The developers already have to take into account certain national preferences when developing their games. Why not convert that into a set of configurable options? Why shouldn't a man of African heritage have the option to convert the entire cast into people of color? He paid for the game. Why shouldn't a lesbian have the option to convert all romances into lesbian romances?

 

The angry guy I mentioned was a straight guy who wanted gay content removed. He was enraged by it. He was a homophobe. It's hatred. Asking for gay characters is asking to be included. It's not asking to exclude and devalue other people. Like MortyTheGobbo said it's not the same.

 

Yes, I'd already heard about the guy. I'm just saying he's within his right to express that preference because it was content he'd had to pay for. That doesn't mean the game developers need to satisfy his qualms. But, in thinking about it, I'm just saying there's a middle ground that can satisfy both camps: make the PC's sexual preference a configurable option at character build time. (Heterosexual, Homosexual, Bisexual, Asexual, Robots, Alien Octopuses,  &c.) That would allow the developers to create a richer romantic experience for players of all sexual preferences, since they can branch the conversations, cut scenes, and what not on that setting.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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