How good are bashing shields ?

[Hynkel]

In PoE there are several shields with the "bash" ability, allowing you to smack enemies with it as if you were dual wielding.

 

Well, I'm no PoE system guru, but for my understanding of things, dual wielding gives you 50% more attacks and not 100%, which means you'll attack with your main weapon about 33% less often (you go from startup->hit->recovery, to startup->wpn hit->startup2->shield hit)

 

If that's what really happens, it doesn't seem very thrilling to trade attacks with your main weapon for crappy shield damage.

 

Can someone with a better understanding of the game system give a better insight ?

[Niclole]

Well I can't answer this definitively but there are really only two bashing shields I consider using: Dragon's Maw and Badgradr's Barricade but that is more for their additional effects than the bash itself. Maybe Scath Gwennek just cause it comes with inherent superb quality, but that isn't something I'd really do. I find more often than not I don't use bash shields, but some of them have interesting additional qualities.  I'm sure Boeroer will be by shortly to point you towards his Barbarian.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Niclole

[draego]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91496-from-the-twitch-qa-bashing-shields/

 

This is a link to talk about bashing shields in general mostly their bad except for the two mentioned before and Badgradr's Barricade would probably only be recommend for high accuracy build.

[Boeroer]

^Correct.

 

Generally speaking bashing shields are crap - with the two known exceptions Badgradr's Barricade and Dragon's Maw.

 

Scath Gwannek is also good - but not because of bash but because it has spell bindings.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Speaking of high acc builds: carnage is considered a low acc ability because it has a malus when the game starts. What few people know is that carnages counts as ability and thus gets +1 ACC per char level. That means that it has very high accuracy in later levels -more than your main attack. Bash is the same. This adds up pretty nicely. Carnage crits with bash happen a lot at the time you get that shield. So - Badgradr's Barricade is a very good pick for a defensive barb who still wants to deal decent damage. Especially Heart of Fury is great with it. Barbaric Blow, too.

 

Same with monk + Torment's Reach.

 

By the way: bashing shields don't get the 50% speed bonus like dual weapons get. You will attack nearly as slow as without bashing (it has a short recovery like fast weapons). But bash is very low damage, thus lowering your overall DPS compared to a normal shield. That's the main reason why it's bad.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

By the way: bashing shields don't get the 50% speed bonus like dual weapons get. You will attack nearly as slow as without bashing (it has a short recovery like fast weapons). But bash is very low damage, thus lowering your overall DPS compared to a normal shield. That's the main reason why it's bad.

It's a bit imprecise. It's not that dual-weapons get a 50% speed bonus. Rather single-weapon attacks get a 0.5 recovery penalty. (or 0.35 if you have durganized shield).

Important: (bashing) shields do not get that penalty. Although main-hand in [1h + bashing_shield] setup does.

 

If something is unclear, I have added a bashing shields paragraph to the conundrum here.

Edited February 20, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Yeah - I didn't want to confuse people because it's a rather unintuitive formula.

[secretmantra]

^Correct.

 

Generally speaking bashing shields are crap - with the two known exceptions Badgradr's Barricade and Dragon's Maw.

 

Scath Gwannek is also good - but not because of bash but because it has spell bindings.

Interesting... I had been wondering why my Paladin had been seeming to not hit that hard. Appears it may be the Larder Door that's the main culprit.

[Boeroer]

For Full Attack abilities like Flames of Devotion a bashing shield is a bit better than a normal shield. But in every other case it's not.

[MaxQuest]

Yeah - I didn't want to confuse people because it's a rather unintuitive formula.

Yeah, I agree it might be quite confusing

The thing is, that spells are also governed by that formula. I.e. spells have the recovery duration akin to dual-wielding (minus TWF talent ofc).

[Boeroer]

And that's one if the weirdest design decisions.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Well uh.

 

Let's say that after every action_phase, there is a recovery_phase which (provided there are no affecting buffs/talents/enchants) has duration equal to [attack_duration * 0.8(3)]

The only exception are attacks made with single weapon. These do get a penalty. And thus have base recovery of [attack_duration * 2 * 0.8(3)]

 

I mean, I understand it looks weird that dual-wielding and spell-casting have (usually) same attack/recovery duration proportion. But that just happens to be the default behavior

Edited February 21, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Whipstitch]

Did they ever change things so shield bash benefits from the two weapon fighting talent? I know it didn't benefit in most versions, but I vaguely remember people hoping that would change.

[Boeroer]

Nope

[JerekKruger]

Speaking of high acc builds: carnage is considered a low acc ability because it has a malus when the game starts. What few people know is that carnages counts as ability and thus gets +1 ACC per char level.

 

Wait, really? That's got to be a bug.

 

As a side question: roughly what else counts as an ability? Do spells count?

[Boeroer]

No, it's no bug. This is the case with all abilities. Things like Knockdown, Crippling Strike and so on all get +1 ACC per level. Even bash does. Else its ACC would be so crappy that you wouldn't hit anything with the shield.

 

With Accurate Carnage and lvl 16 carnage will have +11 ACC compared to your normal auto attack. I really don't know if the +1-per-level-ACC bonuses of Barbaric Blow and Heart of Fury or Vengeful defeat also translate to carnage though.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

No, it's no bug. This is the case with all abilities.

 

Sorry bug is the wrong word, I am sure the +1 Accuracy for abilities is intended but I wouldn't be surprised if Obsidian forgot about it for Carnage. After all, Carnage eventually becoming more accurate than a normal attack seems wrong.

[MaxQuest]

From one point of view, it's not a bug; as all spells and abilities are gaining extra +1 acc per character level, in order to compete with weapon accuracy enchants and talents.

 

On the other hand, carnage uses weapon acc as baseline, right?

[MountainTiger]

At this point, carnage gaining acc/level should probably be considered working as intended (whether or not it was intended at release  ).

 

I hadn't noticed it, but it does further explain why barbs improve so much over the course of the game (and why carnage to spread on-crit effects is so good).

[Whipstitch]

Another weird talent question: how does the 1 handed style talent work with bashing shields? Do you get hit to crit for the weapon, the bash, or neither? Just curious because I'm toying around with playing a tanky high Might rogue that uses Badgradr's Barricade, Bittercut,* Riposte, Deep Wounds and a whole mess of scrolls. 

 

*I'm not married to this weapon choice, btw. Deathblows and spellbind gear go together nicely and Bittercut is a nasty weapon but Purgatory's Annihilation and Draining or We Toki's stuns wouldn't be bad either.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Whipstitch

[Boeroer]

One Handed Style only applies if you have nothing in your left hand. Once you put a shield or other weapon in it, the style gets deactivated. It used to work with shields, but it got patched.

 

So, no additional hit-to-crit conversion for Badgradr's Barricade.

 

What does work with the Thrust of TV once it gets released is Deep Wounds and Penetrating Shot.

[Whipstitch]

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I plan on grabbing both of those and was mostly curious because Weapon Focus always feels kinda vanilla. I ended up grabbing Veteran's Recovery instead since he's going to be at least a part time a melee goon and I actually slightly dumped Con rather than buffed it. Health will be a bit of a pain but I'm not playing PotD this run so whatever, I'll manage. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Whipstitch