Politics 2017 Part 3

[Enoch]

 

 

It's out of control, doing whatever it wants. Doesn't need to be eliminated, but needs to be brought back under Congressional oversight. Legislative functions belong to Congress, not the executive and his agencies.

 

You mean the same congress that tries to disprove global warming by bringing a snowball to the floor? Those people that are sponsored by various oil, gas and drilling companies? Yeah, that is going to end well for you.

 

Democracy - know it, love it.

 

To be fair, Congress didn't used to be this dumb.  They've greatly limited their ability to perform oversight by cutting their own budgets, as some folks looking to "shrink the size of government" decided to start with what was most in their control.  Unfortunately, that meant fewer Committee staffers (and such) who have the requisite knowledge and experience to provide meaningful oversight over very technical executive-branch entities like EPA.  (There even used to be a legislative branch "Office of Science and Technology" to help Congress understand stuff.  It was cut.) 

 

All that does is empower the executive branch and lobbyists (who can push agendas on legislators lacking access to unbiased expert opinions), as well as lead to Congress intervening in dumb ways rather than smart ones. 

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh god, Sweden keeps giving xD

 

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/02/14/proposed-camel-center-slammed-in-sweden

 

It seems that fake news about Sweden are quite popular this days.

 

 

Is it fake? it was in our local news, I was just looking for some english written source, I have skipped RT and Breitbard for obvious reasons...

 

 

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/skattemiljon-gar-till-gigantiskt-kamel-projekt-i-goteborg

 

It is private project that has no public funding or even permit yet. It is build in Angered which is suburb in Gothenburg Municipality not in actual city of Gothenburg and so on.

 

I mean there is real think behind the story, but it is full of alternative facts.

 

 

woot, headline from this page:

 

Tax-million goes to the giant camel project in Gothenburg

 

 

It has granted money from Västra Götaland Regional Council (Västra Götalandsregionen), which I first though was only some development organization, but it is actually some regional governance in Sweden. So it has actually received public funding, my bad. But other details in article are still off.

 

(Million SEK is about 100k EUR)

 

Although SVT's article is about how entrepreneur behind park is marketed benefits of camel milk in way that is against Swedish law and how park still don't have building permit.

 

 

So what actually in that article I posted is not true? Starting to be confused. 

 

 

Location of park

It isn't aimed for immigrants (at least not by information given by SVT's article)

And it is slammed because it don't have building permit and illegal marketing, not because it is racist.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Elerond

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh god, Sweden keeps giving xD

 

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/02/14/proposed-camel-center-slammed-in-sweden

 

It seems that fake news about Sweden are quite popular this days.

 

 

Is it fake? it was in our local news, I was just looking for some english written source, I have skipped RT and Breitbard for obvious reasons...

 

 

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/skattemiljon-gar-till-gigantiskt-kamel-projekt-i-goteborg

 

It is private project that has no public funding or even permit yet. It is build in Angered which is suburb in Gothenburg Municipality not in actual city of Gothenburg and so on.

 

I mean there is real think behind the story, but it is full of alternative facts.

 

 

woot, headline from this page:

 

Tax-million goes to the giant camel project in Gothenburg

 

 

It has granted money from Västra Götaland Regional Council (Västra Götalandsregionen), which I first though was only some development organization, but it is actually some regional governance in Sweden. So it has actually received public funding, my bad. But other details in article are still off.

 

(Million SEK is about 100k EUR)

 

Although SVT's article is about how entrepreneur behind park is marketed benefits of camel milk in way that is against Swedish law and how park still don't have building permit.

 

 

So what actually in that article I posted is not true? Starting to be confused. 

 

 

Location of park

It isn't aimed for immigrants (at least not by information given by SVT's article)

And it is slammed because it don't have building permit and illegal marketing, not because it is racists.

 

 

oh cmon, so its not in Göteborg but nearby which is completely irelevant

 

other sources confirm that it was ment to support immigrants get job and integrate, in your article its not mentioned at all

 

not sure what slammed means

Edited February 16, 2017 by Chilloutman

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

 

It's out of control, doing whatever it wants. Doesn't need to be eliminated, but needs to be brought back under Congressional oversight. Legislative functions belong to Congress, not the executive and his agencies.

 

You mean the same congress that tries to disprove global warming by bringing a snowball to the floor? Those people that are sponsored by various oil, gas and drilling companies? Yeah, that is going to end well for you.

 

Democracy - know it, love it.

 

To be fair, Congress didn't used to be this dumb.  They've greatly limited their ability to perform oversight by cutting their own budgets, as some folks looking to "shrink the size of government" decided to start with what was most in their control.  Unfortunately, that meant fewer Committee staffers (and such) who have the requisite knowledge and experience to provide meaningful oversight over very technical executive-branch entities like EPA.  (There even used to be a legislative branch "Office of Science and Technology" to help Congress understand stuff.  It was cut.) 

 

All that does is empower the executive branch and lobbyists (who can push agendas on legislators lacking access to unbiased expert opinions), as well as lead to Congress intervening in dumb ways rather than smart ones.

 

By oversight I mean legislative action, for example there's a proposal that any regulation that costs over a certain amount has to be approved by Congress.

[Elerond]

 

 

not sure what slammed means

 

 

Slang word for: To criticize harshly; censure forcefully.

or Slang word for: A harsh or devastating criticism.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Elerond

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

not sure what slammed means

 

 

Slang word for: To criticize harshly; censure forcefully.

 

 

Well it depends on who you ask no? I mean there were mentioned immigrants 'slamming' it:

 

Leftist immigrant advocates are claiming the project is "racist," "xenophobic" and "islamophobic," while the right perceives it as yet more proof of a clash of civilizations.

 

In local news there were citations as well...

Edited February 16, 2017 by Chilloutman

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

not sure what slammed means

 

 

Slang word for: To criticize harshly; censure forcefully.

 

 

Well it depends on who you ask no? I mean there were mentioned immigrants 'slamming' it:

 

Leftist immigrant advocates are claiming the project is "racist," "xenophobic" and "islamophobic," while the right perceives it as yet more proof of a clash of civilizations.

 

In local news there were citations as well...

 

 

But it isn't mentioned in Swedish news about critic that the project has received. Also project initiator seems to be immigrant, which would make me question what immigrant advocates would claim that he is racist especially in Sweden.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Elerond

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

 

 

not sure what slammed means

 

 

Slang word for: To criticize harshly; censure forcefully.

 

 

Well it depends on who you ask no? I mean there were mentioned immigrants 'slamming' it:

 

Leftist immigrant advocates are claiming the project is "racist," "xenophobic" and "islamophobic," while the right perceives it as yet more proof of a clash of civilizations.

 

In local news there were citations as well...

 

 

But it isn't mentioned in Swedish news about critic that the project has received. 

 

 

well, so we debunk everything you got against my article, and now you just point out that if information is not in your article so its not true? Doesn't it sounds a little bit like picking only information you like? Also Sweden is kinda known for hiding facts related to immigrants, I think we can agree on it?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

 

 

not sure what slammed means

 

 

Slang word for: To criticize harshly; censure forcefully.

 

 

Well it depends on who you ask no? I mean there were mentioned immigrants 'slamming' it:

 

Leftist immigrant advocates are claiming the project is "racist," "xenophobic" and "islamophobic," while the right perceives it as yet more proof of a clash of civilizations.

 

In local news there were citations as well...

 

 

But it isn't mentioned in Swedish news about critic that the project has received. 

 

 

well, so we debunk everything you got against my article, and now you just point out that if information is not in your article so its not true? Doesn't it sounds a little bit like picking only information you like? Also Sweden is kinda known for hiding facts related to immigrants, I think we can agree on it?

 

 

Only thing that we debunk was my claim that it didn't get public money

 

Also if Swedes hide information about immigrants, only source that your article uses is Swedish one and why SVT would hide criticism towards Swedes but not criticism aimed towards immigrant whose project it is? 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Elerond

[Chilloutman]

Well, I think I have put enough effort to support that article, I don't see any purpose to convincing you that its was criticised by immigrants that its racist. If you don't want to know it its your choice

 

I will just copy paste from google translate for you and I am done with this topic:

 

The idea behind the project creator Geza Nagy, supported by the city, is that the park will become one of the major tourist destinations of the city - and that creates for immigrants from the Middle East and Somalia jobs.

 

"The biggest source of income is tourism park. We assume that the local park use for promotional photographs Volvo and other Swedish companies are also counting with fashion shows, "said Nagy local sheet Göteborg-Posten. He added that the immigrants who live in the district have "perfect knowledge of how to behave and train camels."

 

Camel park is part of a larger project to create a zone with a minimum production of greenhouse gases. At the end of last year was the Gothenburg City Hall confessed subsidy of 13 million Swedish crowns from EU funds. The money was still used, inter alia, on the road to Germany and Kazakhstan, where the future employees learn training camels.

 

 

 

Against the project, but also expressed Holmertzová Gun, head of Caritas, one of the major charities in the country. "It's absurd vision. The people who created it, Andgered want to change a kind of circus with exotic animals and immigrants, which would have outsiders come to see them, "he said. According to Marie Lexhagenové, an expert on tourism at the University, "not after the camel as a tourist attraction in Sweden just demand."

 

Project while also angered many local immigrants. "If I wanted to work with animals or working on plantations, so they go back to their homeland, to Namibia. Here is the money needed for education, housing and real jobs, "she told a reporter Götenborgs-Posten Florence Hansen, originally from Namibia.

 

"It is complete nonsense," assessed the project briefly Bert Karlsson, former deputy. "A ride on a camel, this is something that will undergo once on holiday in a country where almost nothing else to do. Once you pass and then after that never had much to be desired, "he added.

 

source:

 

http://zpravy.idnes.cz/goteborg-vebloudi-park-pristehovalci-d85-/zahranicni.aspx?c=A170216_120202_zahranicni_jol

Edited February 16, 2017 by Chilloutman

[Elerond]

Here is article from Göteborgs-Posten that seems to be the one that Daily Sabah's article uses as its source

 

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/bert-om-kamelparken-måste-vara-ett-skämt-1.4150619

 

Bert on the Camel Park: "Must be a joke"

GOTHENBURG

Gothenburg city and other donors together account for over one million crowns. But the entrepreneur Bert Karlsson and a tourist scholars condemn the planned Camel Park in Angered in advance. - Are you kidding me? It will never work out, says Bert Karlsson.
Michael Verdicchio
 05:00 - February 9, 2017
Plans to make Angered a tourist resort with camels believe entrepreneur Bert Karlsson not at all.

- This must be a joke. Are you kidding me? says Bert Karlsson when he hears about the plans and continues:

- This is so ****ing stupid. That's what you have to do on the tourist trip abroad when there is nothing else to do. You ride once and then you will never be back. I condemn it totally. It will never work in reality.

Read also: Million Contribution - to tourism and camel milk

Neither Maria Lexhagen, tourism researcher at Mid Sweden University, believes in the idea.

- I do not see that there is no great demand for camels - especially in Sweden. It will very much to for something like this to succeed and go around financially, says Maria Lexhagen.

Granted half a million
One of the latest entries Angered camel center received was from Gothenburg Social Resource Management last year in the form of integration funds of SEK 500 000.

- We thought it was an exciting integration projects which could also attract visitors to Angered. It was also promising because it could lead to jobs, says Marina Johansson (S), Chairman of the Social resource committee.

But Bert Karlsson is critical.

- There are obviously people who do not know what they are doing. The granting money is no contractors. But the municipality love the word integration projects. Do you say the word integration, you can get how much money any time. This should be stopped before it even starts, says Bert Karlsson.

"No expert on camels"
The official who investigated camel center defends the decision, however.

- I'm no expert on camels but I thought there was a basis. Could this lead to people getting a job, perhaps especially Somalis who are far outside the labor market, then I think it's worth testing. Maybe I am naive, but I stand in that case, says Lena Salo, development of social resource management.

Marina Johansson also defends the project.

- If we grant money for something that does not succeed, it's something we can learn from then. One should also remember that the municipality has the opportunity to request a refund if they are not used to what we intended, says Marina Johansson.

 

Here is another article that seems to be cited

https://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/miljonbidrag-till-kamelturism-och-mjölk-1.4150581

 

 

 

Large grant - to tourism and camel milk
GOTHENBURG Over one million crowns in taxes and contributions have been granted, but there is still no trace of the promised camel Centre in Angered. Despite lacking a building permit has the money gone to the fence, souvenirs and import of camel milk. - It is said that milk helps with autism, says Councilman Malin Larsson (MP).
Michael Verdicchio
 05:00 - February 9, 2017
When the GP meets the initiator Géza Nagy, he talks about the grand plans he worked for several years. The stables and a paddock to be built and a pair of camels and alpacas will be purchased for the center, which is planned just behind Angered arena. Inside the camel center, visitors will be able to both pet and ride on the camels.

- The largest source of income will be from tourism. There is a huge interest in camels both in Sweden and abroad. We expect tourists from around the world, including from Japan and China, says Géza Nagy also has other plans on revenues:

- We think that Volvo or other companies can photograph their products with camels. We can also have fashion shows and selling various camel products.

"Politicians very positive"
According Géza Nagy, revenues will lead to the 20 people hired, although some will come through labor market measures. The main objective of the project will be the integration and to get people into jobs.

- Politicians have been very positive about this. They really believe in our idea of ​​making Angered a tourist resort.

In October 2015 reported Angered camel center to the aggregate value of all contributions and support money you received - including from the City of Gothenburg, Västra Götaland region and Jobs - amounted to over a million. A few months later, you also told that the City of Gothenburg decided to donate another 500 000 in 2016 in the form of integration funds.

Need more contributions
More contributions are needed, however. According to Nagy, the construction of stables, paddocks and roads cost about two million.

The other problem is the building permit. Although it received permission to lease the land, has so far only received an oral promise of building permits from an official.

Read also: Bert Karlsson on the Camel Park: "Must be a joke"

However, it has not stopped the camel center from operating. Among other things, they stängslat the land for SEK 125 000, went on study tours in Germany and Kazakhstan, as well bought souvenirs in the form of alpaca wool, plush toys and t-shirts. It has also imported 1500 liters of camel milk from the Netherlands sold to private individuals.

Camel milk - good for autism?
One who helped with milk sales Malin Larsson, ecologists Semitic Councillor in Skara, in addition to having been a member of the camel association also granted money to do research on camel posture in Sweden. On the Facebook page "I want camel milk NOW" which is followed by 73 people, Malin Larsson spent several posts advertising the center's camel milk. The most popular post has videos liked by three people.

- There is research that shows that camel milk is especially useful. They include taking blood samples from children with autism and found that the benefits of drinking camel's milk, says Malin Larsson and clarify later that the studies done have been on a smaller scale.

Illegal claims
When GP examines a camel center's advertising posters hung up in Angered, it is not only that the milk is said to be good for autism, but also that it helps against tuberculosis, diabetes, liver disease, Crohn's disease, and that it prevents tumors. Illegal claims under both the NFA and the MPA.

- It is not allowed to advertise food with medical claims unless they are approved as drugs. As far as I know, camel milk is not an approved drug, says Jenny Johansson, food inspector at the NFA.

Believe in the idea
Malin Larsson said later that she had not been involved in the actual poster and that she is no longer with the association. She also says that she only tipped off about the sale.

- There is a clear need to market it properly, says Malin Larsson.

But Géza Nagy defend themselves.

- We have not made any aggressive marketing for this. But there are things that are discussed in various forums online, says Géza Nagy.

According to Nagy, the milk will now be out of stock. The profit was about 10 000.

How will you get this to go around?

- It looks good. Certainly, we need to seek more contributions to be able to walk around with it all, but in the long run, I believe we can become self-sufficient.

Update: After the GP's publication, Malin Larsson heard of and clarified that she did not think that camel milk is used as a medicine and research base is too small to be used as marketing.
- It can be downright dangerous if people think they can cure serious diseases just by drinking camel's milk, says Malin Larsson.

After the GP's article published Malin Larsson following response.

 

 

 

I try to find if they have any article about accusation of racism towards the park, as far I haven't find any

Edited February 16, 2017 by Elerond

[Chilloutman]

All you are presenting is already in that first article I posted, I also spend time to translate you my original article, you have NAMES of people who told its racist including some head of charity organisation and real immigrants. What is you point?

[Elerond]

All you are presenting is already in that first article I posted, I also spend time to translate you my original article, you have NAMES of people who told its racist including some head of charity organisation and real immigrants. What is you point?

 

Sweden's plans to build a camel park in the Swedish city of Gothenburg, which it hopes will create jobs for migrants, have been slammed as racist by immigrant advocates as reported by the Swedish daily newspaper Göteborgs-Posten.

 

It is that part that I can't find 

[Chilloutman]

5 minutes of googling and I dont even speak Swedish

 

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/g%C3%B6teborg/han-ska-%C3%B6ppna-kamelcenter-i-angered-1.199116

 

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/g%C3%B6teborg/gun-holmertz-ett-helt-absurt-projekt-1.4148588

 

Gun Holmertz which operates Caritas has for many years been critical of how the municipality acted in Gothenburg suburbs. Her image is that too much money goes to the salaries of municipal officials and communicators in various projects without specific goals. Although she calls the project a fuzzy project.

Read more:  Suburban Vision: Goat and horse mower

- Urban Land is an absurd project. You want to make Angered at some kind of exotic circus with immigrants, animals and allotments as inner city residents then can come and watch. It is a colonial mindset, says Gun Holmertz and gets support from many in the room.

 

- We have people in the compound from Somalia and Middle Eastern countries that have extensive knowledge of camelids. Foremost is the experience of the young camels, but because knowledge is the same and the staff will receive training and researching more about how to breed camels in the Nordic region. In the long term, we also plan to buy more animals and even perhaps dromedaries, says Géza Nagy. 

 

 

 

seems like each article from Sweden covering only tiny parts of the story...

Edited February 16, 2017 by Chilloutman

[Elerond]

 

Well, I think I have put enough effort to support that article, I don't see any purpose to convincing you that its was criticised by immigrants that its racist. If you don't want to know it its your choice

 

I will just copy paste from google translate for you and I am done with this topic:

 

The idea behind the project creator Geza Nagy, supported by the city, is that the park will become one of the major tourist destinations of the city - and that creates for immigrants from the Middle East and Somalia jobs.

 

"The biggest source of income is tourism park. We assume that the local park use for promotional photographs Volvo and other Swedish companies are also counting with fashion shows, "said Nagy local sheet Göteborg-Posten. He added that the immigrants who live in the district have "perfect knowledge of how to behave and train camels."

 

Camel park is part of a larger project to create a zone with a minimum production of greenhouse gases. At the end of last year was the Gothenburg City Hall confessed subsidy of 13 million Swedish crowns from EU funds. The money was still used, inter alia, on the road to Germany and Kazakhstan, where the future employees learn training camels.

 

 

 

Against the project, but also expressed Holmertzová Gun, head of Caritas, one of the major charities in the country. "It's absurd vision. The people who created it, Andgered want to change a kind of circus with exotic animals and immigrants, which would have outsiders come to see them, "he said. According to Marie Lexhagenové, an expert on tourism at the University, "not after the camel as a tourist attraction in Sweden just demand."

 

Project while also angered many local immigrants. "If I wanted to work with animals or working on plantations, so they go back to their homeland, to Namibia. Here is the money needed for education, housing and real jobs, "she told a reporter Götenborgs-Posten Florence Hansen, originally from Namibia.

 

"It is complete nonsense," assessed the project briefly Bert Karlsson, former deputy. "A ride on a camel, this is something that will undergo once on holiday in a country where almost nothing else to do. Once you pass and then after that never had much to be desired, "he added.

 

source:

 

http://zpravy.idnes.cz/goteborg-vebloudi-park-pristehovalci-d85-/zahranicni.aspx?c=A170216_120202_zahranicni_jol

 

 

 

Are you sure about that name Holmertzová Gun

 

President of Caritas International is Cardinal Luis Antonio Gokim Tagle and Henrik Alberius is Chairman of Caritas Sweden

 

Also Marie Lexhagenové seems to be off

Edited February 16, 2017 by Elerond

[Chilloutman]

 

 

Well, I think I have put enough effort to support that article, I don't see any purpose to convincing you that its was criticised by immigrants that its racist. If you don't want to know it its your choice

 

I will just copy paste from google translate for you and I am done with this topic:

 

The idea behind the project creator Geza Nagy, supported by the city, is that the park will become one of the major tourist destinations of the city - and that creates for immigrants from the Middle East and Somalia jobs.

 

"The biggest source of income is tourism park. We assume that the local park use for promotional photographs Volvo and other Swedish companies are also counting with fashion shows, "said Nagy local sheet Göteborg-Posten. He added that the immigrants who live in the district have "perfect knowledge of how to behave and train camels."

 

Camel park is part of a larger project to create a zone with a minimum production of greenhouse gases. At the end of last year was the Gothenburg City Hall confessed subsidy of 13 million Swedish crowns from EU funds. The money was still used, inter alia, on the road to Germany and Kazakhstan, where the future employees learn training camels.

 

 

 

Against the project, but also expressed Holmertzová Gun, head of Caritas, one of the major charities in the country. "It's absurd vision. The people who created it, Andgered want to change a kind of circus with exotic animals and immigrants, which would have outsiders come to see them, "he said. According to Marie Lexhagenové, an expert on tourism at the University, "not after the camel as a tourist attraction in Sweden just demand."

 

Project while also angered many local immigrants. "If I wanted to work with animals or working on plantations, so they go back to their homeland, to Namibia. Here is the money needed for education, housing and real jobs, "she told a reporter Götenborgs-Posten Florence Hansen, originally from Namibia.

 

"It is complete nonsense," assessed the project briefly Bert Karlsson, former deputy. "A ride on a camel, this is something that will undergo once on holiday in a country where almost nothing else to do. Once you pass and then after that never had much to be desired, "he added.

 

source:

 

http://zpravy.idnes.cz/goteborg-vebloudi-park-pristehovalci-d85-/zahranicni.aspx?c=A170216_120202_zahranicni_jol

 

 

 

Are you sure about that name Holmertzová Gun

 

President of Caritas International is Cardinal Luis Antonio Gokim Tagle and Henrik Alberius is Chairman of Caritas Sweden

 

Also Marie Lexhagenové seems to be off

 

 

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/stockholms-katolska-stift/news/gun-holmertz-fraan-caritas-upptagen-i-paavlig-riddarorden-146143

 

Do you seriously think I am making all this up or what?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Well, I think I have put enough effort to support that article, I don't see any purpose to convincing you that its was criticised by immigrants that its racist. If you don't want to know it its your choice

 

I will just copy paste from google translate for you and I am done with this topic:

 

The idea behind the project creator Geza Nagy, supported by the city, is that the park will become one of the major tourist destinations of the city - and that creates for immigrants from the Middle East and Somalia jobs.

 

"The biggest source of income is tourism park. We assume that the local park use for promotional photographs Volvo and other Swedish companies are also counting with fashion shows, "said Nagy local sheet Göteborg-Posten. He added that the immigrants who live in the district have "perfect knowledge of how to behave and train camels."

 

Camel park is part of a larger project to create a zone with a minimum production of greenhouse gases. At the end of last year was the Gothenburg City Hall confessed subsidy of 13 million Swedish crowns from EU funds. The money was still used, inter alia, on the road to Germany and Kazakhstan, where the future employees learn training camels.

 

 

 

Against the project, but also expressed Holmertzová Gun, head of Caritas, one of the major charities in the country. "It's absurd vision. The people who created it, Andgered want to change a kind of circus with exotic animals and immigrants, which would have outsiders come to see them, "he said. According to Marie Lexhagenové, an expert on tourism at the University, "not after the camel as a tourist attraction in Sweden just demand."

 

Project while also angered many local immigrants. "If I wanted to work with animals or working on plantations, so they go back to their homeland, to Namibia. Here is the money needed for education, housing and real jobs, "she told a reporter Götenborgs-Posten Florence Hansen, originally from Namibia.

 

"It is complete nonsense," assessed the project briefly Bert Karlsson, former deputy. "A ride on a camel, this is something that will undergo once on holiday in a country where almost nothing else to do. Once you pass and then after that never had much to be desired, "he added.

 

source:

 

http://zpravy.idnes.cz/goteborg-vebloudi-park-pristehovalci-d85-/zahranicni.aspx?c=A170216_120202_zahranicni_jol

 

 

 

Are you sure about that name Holmertzová Gun

 

President of Caritas International is Cardinal Luis Antonio Gokim Tagle and Henrik Alberius is Chairman of Caritas Sweden

 

Also Marie Lexhagenové seems to be off

 

 

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/se/stockholms-katolska-stift/news/gun-holmertz-fraan-caritas-upptagen-i-paavlig-riddarorden-146143

 

Do you seriously think I am making all this up or what?

 

 

I asked are you sure about the name Holmertzová Gun which is somewhat different from Gun Holmertz

 

It seems that Gun Holmertz isn't head of Caritas, but she is founder of Caritas Caritas Gothenburg and Angered (sub organization of Caritas Sweden, which is sub organisation of Caritas International). 

 

This quote seem to be against their general urban development project not the mentioned camel park.

"It's absurd vision. The people who created it, Andgered want to change a kind of circus with exotic animals and immigrants, which would have outsiders come to see them, "

 

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/satsar-32-miljoner-på-svamp-getmjölk-och-hästgräsklippare-1.4148563

http://www.gp.se/nyheter/göteborg/gun-holmertz-ett-helt-absurt-projekt-1.4148588

 

 

Population: "Clean racism"

The project may be harsh criticism from residents who call it fuzzy and offensive.

- If I had wanted to work with animals or crops, I had gone back to Namibia. The money is needed for education, housing and real jobs. We do not want more animals here. We immigrants are already stigmatized group - this project is pure racism, says Florence Hansen, accommodation in Angered.

- This feels frivolous, says Issmet Elsalihie.

Even Gun Holmertz Caritas in Hjällbo directed similar criticisms. She calls the project a "circus" that has a "colonial mindset".

Read more: Gun Holmertz: "Would make Angered a circus"

Something Dan Melander not agree with.

- This is definitely not a circus, and we do not claim that this is the solution for the entire northeast. This is just about to test new ways to build economies.

 

 

http://www.mistraurbanfutures.org/en/urban-research-urban-rural-gothenburg-stadslandet

 

So they think that their Green urban project in immigrant suburban is racist, that sounds more like swedish thing to do.

[Azdeus]

I'd like to point out to Elerond and Chill that you're mixing two different projects aswell, the camel park and the goats and horse mower projects are two different entities. Also, locals that has immigrated to Sweden are the ones most vocal against it, not just activists.

 

Géza Nagy that want's to build the camel centre also took a trip together with an official to Kazakhstan, while the municipal employee was still recieving pay from municipality. Shortly after that trip Geza was granted another 10000€. The critizism has been mainly focused on the mismanagement of funds and that he has'nt produced anything except fenced off some land and went on "research trips" and bought camel milk for the money. Also they made healthclaims about camel milk, claiming it could help against cancer and autism, wich is very illegal here.

 

Dan Melander want's to build a ecofriendly greencentre thing, with goats and mushrooms and horsemowers/using horses as "tractors". Local residents have complained about this, such as Florence you quoted. His motivations for this centre is an criticized mistranslated poll that he'd done. Motivating it with an increase in tourism, wich people very much doubt there is an interest in. The funding plans are also criticized because alot of the 3.2M € are aimed at municipality officials and "communicators".

 

So, yeah, leftist immigrant advocates are'nt the ones that are slamming these projects, it's mainly the immigrants themselves. And they did'nt call Geza a racist, they called the idea behind the centre racist and they called the green centre racist.

Also it's the ultra-right wing condemning the right-centre-left policies that help start these projects.

 

I work in Gothenburg and half if not more of my coworkers are from Angered, and they are pretty pissed about this, they want the money to go to education, apartments and youthcentres, things wich are actually needed there.

[Chilloutman]

I'd like to point out to Elerond and Chill that you're mixing two different projects aswell, the camel park and the goats and horse mower projects are two different entities. Also, locals that has immigrated to Sweden are the ones most vocal against it, not just activists.

 

Géza Nagy that want's to build the camel centre also took a trip together with an official to Kazakhstan, while the municipal employee was still recieving pay from municipality. Shortly after that trip Geza was granted another 10000€. The critizism has been mainly focused on the mismanagement of funds and that he has'nt produced anything except fenced off some land and went on "research trips" and bought camel milk for the money. Also they made healthclaims about camel milk, claiming it could help against cancer and autism, wich is very illegal here.

 

Dan Melander want's to build a ecofriendly greencentre thing, with goats and mushrooms and horsemowers/using horses as "tractors". Local residents have complained about this, such as Florence you quoted. His motivations for this centre is an criticized mistranslated poll that he'd done. Motivating it with an increase in tourism, wich people very much doubt there is an interest in. The funding plans are also criticized because alot of the 3.2M € are aimed at municipality officials and "communicators".

 

So, yeah, leftist immigrant advocates are'nt the ones that are slamming these projects, it's mainly the immigrants themselves. And they did'nt call Geza a racist, they called the idea behind the centre racist and they called the green centre racist.

Also it's the ultra-right wing condemning the right-centre-left policies that help start these projects.

 

I work in Gothenburg and half if not more of my coworkers are from Angered, and they are pretty pissed about this, they want the money to go to education, apartments and youthcentres, things wich are actually needed there.

 

I think I never told that they say she is racist, otherwise its all same as i have provided, not sure where all this fuzz come from

[Azdeus]

Well, it's not Sweden that has initiated the camel park project, it's a private persons, he's getting a grant from the municipality. I was just trying to clarify as much as possible, since you both mixed articles and projects together.

[Azdeus]

Democracy - know it, love it.

I know you do

 

However having many of those people deciding their votes on where the money is at, is not democracy.

 

Edit; ****, I double posted, now I have to wear a punishment buttplug vibrator for the rest of the day.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Azdeus

[Zoraptor]

oh god, Sweden keeps giving xD

 

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/02/14/proposed-camel-center-slammed-in-sweden

 

While I don't really want to get tied up in the minutiae of camel farms in Sweden and other such things Daily Sabah is an abysmally bad newspaper. It won't take a metaphorical crap without written in triplicate approval from Erdogan.

 

 

 

First media don't write enough articles about leaked information and then couple months later they write too much and need to apologize? No wonder that US media is bit out there.

 

Well yeah, and you have the people who were appalled!!! at the Hillary/ DNC leaks who are cheering the current leaks on. Plenty of hypocrisy to go around there, if the circumstances were equivalent, which they aren't.

 

There's a big difference between Hillary/ DNC stuff being leaked by someone be it the mysteriously, unsolvedly, murdered Seth Rich or Vladimir Putin wearing a Groucho Marx moustache as it was information from a private institution to which the leaker either had legit access in Rich or was part of a hack by a 3rd party state which has no obligation to respect US laws. In the current case(s) it's both clear political meddling by, effectively, a state institution (individuals within, but you'd suspect that the leakers could be caught were it a priority for the leadership) against the political leadership of said state and is also illegal leaking of classified material in many cases. The overwhelming impression is that the 'intelligence community' doesn't want to share with Trump not because they think he's a security risk but because they want to monopolise the ability to leak and limit it to anti Trump stuff. They've been leaking like a sieve for the past couple of months, after all.

 

Anyone and everyone should be concerned about the intelligence community influencing politics. Their power over the general population and politicians is an order of magnitude greater than any influence Russia could possibly have even in McCain and Graham's worst nightmare (or Raytheon et al think tanks' push marketing, at least). 

[Elerond]

 

oh god, Sweden keeps giving xD

 

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/02/14/proposed-camel-center-slammed-in-sweden

 

While I don't really want to get tied up in the minutiae of camel farms in Sweden and other such things Daily Sabah is an abysmally bad newspaper. It won't take a metaphorical crap without written in triplicate approval from Erdogan.

 

 

 

First media don't write enough articles about leaked information and then couple months later they write too much and need to apologize? No wonder that US media is bit out there.

 

Well yeah, and you have the people who were appalled!!! at the Hillary/ DNC leaks who are cheering the current leaks on. Plenty of hypocrisy to go around there, if the circumstances were equivalent, which they aren't.

 

There's a big difference between Hillary/ DNC stuff being leaked by someone be it the mysteriously, unsolvedly, murdered Seth Rich or Vladimir Putin wearing a Groucho Marx moustache as it was information from a private institution to which the leaker either had legit access in Rich or was part of a hack by a 3rd party state which has no obligation to respect US laws. In the current case(s) it's both clear political meddling by, effectively, a state institution (individuals within, but you'd suspect that the leakers could be caught were it a priority for the leadership) against the political leadership of said state and is also illegal leaking of classified material in many cases. The overwhelming impression is that the 'intelligence community' doesn't want to share with Trump not because they think he's a security risk but because they want to monopolise the ability to leak and limit it to anti Trump stuff. They've been leaking like a sieve for the past couple of months, after all.

 

Anyone and everyone should be concerned about the intelligence community influencing politics. Their power over the general population and politicians is an order of magnitude greater than any influence Russia could possibly have even in McCain and Graham's worst nightmare (or Raytheon et al think tanks' push marketing, at least). 

 

 

In both cases leaks were illegal no doubt of that and in both cases leaks were politically motivated and done in purpose to effect in US politics no doubt. But my point was about Trumps attitude towards media reporting said leaks, where first he is very pro when it is his benefit, but then when situation is opposite he is more than ready to blame media reporting about said leaks. Such inconsistency just works in benefit of said leakers because it moves blame from leakers to media reporting about leaks. It also make people attitude towards leaks become more jovial and accepting, which makes it easier for intelligence communities influence politics by leaking stuff.

[Zoraptor]

It isn't illegal for Russia to hack the DNC, as Russia isn't bound by US laws. Same as it isn't/ wasn't illegal for the US to 'promote homosexuality' just because that is illegal in Russia. Won't stop the US from trying to impose their laws, of course, but Russia's response is and would be that the US can go asterisk themselves same as the US would tell Russia if they tried to enforce their anti gay laws in the US. And if it were Rich doing the leaking then it may have been illegal- far more difficult to prove it though, since he had legit access to the info- but it certainly wasn't hacking, or treason.

 

As for the rest, you're trying to make Trump a special case. If Schumer or Pelosi were appalled!!! at the DNC/ Hillary leaks and are smugly parroting the current ones that is every bit as undermining as Trump doing it, and every bit as undermining as Obama saying he supported whistle blowers then prosecuting more than all other Presidents combined (iirc) under the espionage act. Truth is that everyone loves a leak that benefits them, and is appalled!!! at a leak that doesn't. Trump is no special case there, he's absolutely par for the course.

 

I don't really see how it makes it easier for intelligence communities to influence either. They're going to do it because they want Trump gone, have the power to, the only people who can stop them rely on them for the information needed to stop them and there's no prospect of the media refusing to print unsupported leaks they agree with. Trump being a hypocrite about supporting/ opposing leaks is a parallel issue that is only likely to be significant to those who already don't like him- same as the D hypocrisy is only significant to those who don't like them.

[Enoch]

 

 

 

 

It's out of control, doing whatever it wants. Doesn't need to be eliminated, but needs to be brought back under Congressional oversight. Legislative functions belong to Congress, not the executive and his agencies.

 

You mean the same congress that tries to disprove global warming by bringing a snowball to the floor? Those people that are sponsored by various oil, gas and drilling companies? Yeah, that is going to end well for you.

 

Democracy - know it, love it.

 

To be fair, Congress didn't used to be this dumb.  They've greatly limited their ability to perform oversight by cutting their own budgets, as some folks looking to "shrink the size of government" decided to start with what was most in their control.  Unfortunately, that meant fewer Committee staffers (and such) who have the requisite knowledge and experience to provide meaningful oversight over very technical executive-branch entities like EPA.  (There even used to be a legislative branch "Office of Science and Technology" to help Congress understand stuff.  It was cut.) 

 

All that does is empower the executive branch and lobbyists (who can push agendas on legislators lacking access to unbiased expert opinions), as well as lead to Congress intervening in dumb ways rather than smart ones.

 

By oversight I mean legislative action, for example there's a proposal that any regulation that costs over a certain amount has to be approved by Congress.

 

Which is a classic dumb "solution" to a complicated issue.  Or, rather, a long series of complicated issues. 

 

If a knowledgeable Congress is going to engage with the details of technical matters involved in each particular proposed Rule and author legislation to address what they see as the issues needing attention, great.  If an uninformed Congress is simply going to be the vehicle by which lobbyists stop Rules authored by regulatory agencies, I don't really see how that leads to better policymaking.  (Also, agencies will quickly learn to game the system to avoid the "cost" caps.)