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https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=4#post472057845

EgPltOu.png

 

Might be useful for solo barbarian, or barb+monk tandem. Aside from that...

 

Also getting him affected by the new confuse (for example right before AI uses HoF via tactics), is really scary now.

Edited by MaxQuest
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Haha - HoF + confusion can result in a party whipeout if HoF is anything like in PoE1.

 

If Carnage's AoE is still determined by INT then -5 through confusion will reduce the AoE of carnage and the duration of Frenzy a lot though. Well, I guess it's easy to circumvent this with a bigger base AoE and duration for berserkers.

 

Can't say if I like this confusion approach. I mean I like the friend or foe thing. Just make sure that you send your berserker in first. :)

Edited by Boeroer

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Well, if confusion doesn't imply that the AI takes control and overrides your own commands, then a friendly fire mode doesn't seem too bad. Actually, does sound like a lot of fun!

Edited by Doppelschwert
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our main concern 'bout the berserker is it sounds like reload bait.  have cipher and priest buff a berserker into temp immortal state and then set her loose.  'course for those couple encounters when things go wrong and the berserker 'causes a party wipe, folks will simple reload.  

 

am happy to see obsidian is sticking to iwd2 kits pov compared to bg2.  and yes, we know iwd2 didn't have kits, but it were gonna until the developers switched from 2e to 3e.  iwd2 kits did not make the base class less appealing.  

 

...

 

am a bit puzzled.  the fanbase did not react positive to the iwd2 kits.  expectations were for bg2 power kits and when black isle failed to deliver inquisitors and wild mages and berserkers, the fans voiced their displeasure.  the negative backlash regarding sucky and underpowered poe2 subclasses seems inevitable to Gromnir.  feel like bill murray from groundhog day.

 

 

we have lived this day a few times already.  

 

hope to be wrong.  hope obsidian has a plan if Gromnir is correct. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Let's see. So far I'm quite pleased with the known things about subclasses. Also: it's all about the details, as the discussion about the berserker shows.

 

Okay, the Nalpazca subclass for monks sounds a bit meh - but we don't know yet what it means that drugs are more powerful with them. I mean - if the drug has +50% or even +100% effect and the crash is less devastating, then this will be one of the best classes for soloing I presume. And we'll also have the beta to give constructive criticism if we think some subclass is rubbish.

 

I don't know anything about D&D kits and stuff. Even though I'm quite old (for a gamer) and played a lot of P&P roleplaying games when I was a schooolkid and a student, I never played D&D and know nothing about the rules... besides the things I saw in the BG, IWD and NWN series. And I'm somewhat grateful for that. It lets me experience all those new CRPGs without false nostalgia getting into the way.

Edited by Boeroer

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I wouldn't say IWD2 had kits the way BG2 did them, or Deadfire looks like it'll do. Wasn't it just some different orders/deities for paladins, monks and clerics? Switching to 3e rules didn't really allow for more.

 

...

 

giphy.gif

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Baldur's Gate II Kits

 

God I loved my Cavalier. :lol:

 

I played twice through the BG2 saga, once with a kensai and once with a monk. As one can see, their main feature was not being overly gear dependent and not having any armor, and I'm still dissappointed that both mechanically and thematically, there are no talents to support such a playstyle in PoE. My only wish for PoE2 (beyond what is already confirmed) is to have subclasses dedicated to that concept again, and I'll be very dissappointed if they prefer some other subclasses for the monk instead.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of powerbuilds were based around combining the Kensai subclass with Wizards to yield characters that were both very capable at melee and magic, up to the point that I blame this as the sole reason that the Kensai is an archetype for the magus class in pathfinder, which is quite far away from the initial concept.

Edited by Doppelschwert
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The problem with Kensai was that its lack of gear progressively ceased to matter as the game went on. At first, it was acute. Particularly so if you used mods or the Enhanced Edition to play a Kensai in BG1, in which case, God help you. But later on, AC stopped mattering as much (becoming entirely irrelevant in Throne of Bhaal), and the Kensai's offensive potential was obscene. And, of course, pairing it up with a Mage helped overcome its lack of defence.

 

Pillars doesn't have Baldur's Gate's problems with scaling, of course, but it's still a tricky thing to balance out.

Edited by MortyTheGobbo
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But you can play wizards or monks with no armor in PoE. Things like Iron Skin and Iron Wheel allow it to have decent DR without recovery penalty. The difference is that the game doesn't force you to go without armor. This is a good thing in my book. If there will be a subclass that gets some bonuses when wearing no armor; fine for me. But don't forbid it entirely.

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You can play any class with any selection of gear and make it work somehow in PoE, that's not the point. Also, Iron Skin and Iron Wheel stack with armor afaik, so it doesn't give you any incentive to go without armor on its own.

 

I guess it boils down to this: I think the trade-off between DR and attack speed is conceptionally bad as it completely kills off the concept of dodging as a means of defense. I would've vastly prefered a trade-off between deflection and DR and I'm not aware of any way to have such a trade-off in the game. You can buff various values like DR or deflection but you might always just buff both, the only tradeoffs are with regards to offense vs defense.

 

Transcended Suffering is an example for weapons that should've been available for armor as well:

Your fist scale with level and are gear independent, but you can always equip a weapon. That's a class feature of the monk in DnD 2 and 3.X as well, but those monks also had the same class feature in terms of armor - scaling with level and gear independent, but you could always equip an armor if you wanted (at least in DnD 3.X, though you lost access to a lot of class abilities then).

 

All I want is that iconic class feature back in some form, and it's not even an obscure wish because of a lot of fantasy archetypes revolve around the heroes not getting hit in the first place instead of soaking up blows with their armor, which becomes quickly apparent when you read a lot of fantasy novels. Why PoE doesn't properly support this concept is still beyond me, even tyranny had talents with this in mind.

Edited by Doppelschwert
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Yes, a bonus to deflection and/or reflex, depending on your armor, would have been good. One thing I liked about Tyranny was that light armor gave you crit-hit-graze-miss conversion while heavy armor gave you DR. It's a good concept because it could be put into PoE2 without any change of the underlying mechanics. A few defensive abilities around heavy, light or no armor also wouldn't hurt - just so you can specialize more and get something out of it.

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One thing I liked about Tyranny was that light armor gave you crit-hit-graze-miss conversion while heavy armor gave you DR.

The idea was great.

The DR is more effective vs low-hitting enemies (but many in numbers). While hit quality downgrade is more effective vs hard-hitting monsters.

And it feels natural. One would send iron-clad warrior vs something like xaurips. While no sane knight would try to tank-up a flurry of dragon blows; it's better to evade them altogether.

 

Tyranny lacked playtesting through, to balance these options and make them equally useful. In the end light armor turned out to be superior. But Deadfire could solve this problem.

Edited by MaxQuest
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Yeah, Tyranny wasn't balanced at all. Light armor + Mirrored Image = "U can't touch this" and stuff. There were too many game breaking combos and too many useless stuff. But the basic idea was great.

 

It needs some fine tuning. A heavy armor could have some crit-to-hit or hit-to-graze conversion as well, because devastating blows may glance off of plate and so on. But graze-to-miss with heavy armor makes no sense. The king of graze-to-miss for example should be no armor (or armor with no hinderance).

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It needs some fine tuning. A heavy armor could have some crit-to-hit or hit-to-graze conversion as well, because devastating blows may glance off of plate and so on. But graze-to-miss with heavy armor makes no sense. The king of graze-to-miss for example should be no armor (or armor with no hinderance).

Agreed. Makes a lot of sense.

 

I am also thinking what if robes had no downgrade conversion, but some would provide a bonus to arcane or faith or spell casting speed.

Edited by MaxQuest
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That sounds more like an enchantment but not like the general property of a piece of garnment. Would make sense when naked or having no sleeves though. Undershirt wizard for the win! ;)

Edited by Boeroer
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Yeah, I agree with both of you. Tyranny wasn't balanced, but it supported several options for archetypes that are not really supported by PoE, in particular choosing how to mitigate damage. I don't want the broken stuff, but at least some static bonus that gives an edge and feels like a significant investment.

 

Even when its not available as a general talent, just a single subclass of some class with a focus in this would already enable a lot of archetypes through the multiclass system - could as well be the rogue instead of the monk. That's really all I'm asking for here.

Edited by Doppelschwert
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I wouldn't say IWD2 had kits the way BG2 did them, or Deadfire looks like it'll do. Wasn't it just some different orders/deities for paladins, monks and clerics? Switching to 3e rules didn't really allow for more.

 

Before IWD2 was moved to 3rd edition rules, it was a 2nd Edition game with kits.

 

IIRC this is a (the?) proposed or tentative list of kits by Sawyer before the switch to 3e was made:

 

 

Fighter Kits

 

LANDSKNECHT: Typically a heavily armored front-line fighter, the landsknecht breaks apart enemy formations and creates an offensive menace that is hard to overcome. The landsknecht focuses most of his or her expertise on brute force weapons and heavy armor.

 

Advantages:

* Landsknechts automatically start with a point in the two-handed weapon fighting style.

* 3rd Level: Long Reach: When using melee weapons, the landsknecht's effective reach is increased by one. E.g.: a longsword's reach goes from 1 to 2, a spear's goes from 2 to 3.

* 6th Level: Hold Ground: When activated, this ability slows the landsknecht to quarter movement. For the next five rounds, the landsknecht gains a +2 generic AC bonus and 2 points of damage reduction. This power is usable 3/day.

* 9th Level: Knockdown: When a landsknecht critically hits an opponent, the target must make a Fortitude saving throw (15 DC) or be knocked unconscious for 1 round. Only living creatures can be affected by such an attack.

 

Disadvantages:

* The landsknecht cannot start gameplay with weapon specialization.

* The landsknecht cannot gain proficiency in bows, slings or darts. They require too much finesse for front-line fighter.

* The landsknecht cannot use shields, and cannot specialize in the weapon and shield fighting style.

* The landsknecht may never achieve grandmastery in a weapon.

 

COULD REPLACE FIGHTER: MERCENARY

 

RAVAGER: Living a life of violence, the ravager is a warrior who revels in slaughter, leaving maimed and terrified opponents in his or her wake. Unlike the barbarian, who enters a berserk state to down foes with powerful blows, the ravager inflicts awful, painful wounds on an opponent with malicious glee.

 

Advantages:

* 3rd Level: Vile Wounds: When a ravager critically hits an opponent, the target must make a Fortitude save (15 DC) or suffer a bleeding wound that causes 1 point of damage per round for 10 rounds.

* 6th Level: Cruelest Cuts: After activating this ability, which lasts for 3 rounds, all of the ravager's blows have an equal chance blinding the target or reducing his or her movement by 2 points unless a Fortitude save (20 DC) is made. It can be used 3/day.

* 9th Level: Chaotic Maelstrom: Once per day, the ravager has the ability to invoke a circle of quasi-magical blades similar in effect to the blade barrier spell. The ravager's chaotic maelstrom causes less damage (3d6 slashing), but the ravager is immune to the blades' effects and can move through them without fear of personal harm.

 

Disadvantages:

* Ravagers gain one proficiency every four levels, instead of every three.

* Ravagers lack the focus to gain grandmastery in any weapon.

* Ravagers only gain half the benefits from any healing effect (e.g., a healing spell normally gives back 8 hit points; the ravager only gains 4).

 

Restrictions:

* Ravagers cannot be lawful or good.

 

COULD REPLACE FIGHTER: WIZARD SLAYER OR FIGHTER: MERCENARY

 

WEAPONS MASTER: a warrior that has been specially trained to be one with his or her weapon, weapons masters are often held in high regard: in Kara-Tur they are known as kensai - 'sword saints' - and are similarly revered among the moon elves of Evereska. They are deadly and fast and are trained to fight without encumbrance, some considering armor the crutch of the martially unskilled.

 

Advantages:

* Bonus +1 attack bonus and Damage /3 levels.

* +2 armor bonus.

* -1 bonus to Speed Factor for every 4 levels.

* May use 'Focus' ability one time per day for every 4 levels: this ability lasts 10 seconds and makes all attacks do maximum damage.

 

Disadvantages:

* May not use missile weapons.

* May not wear armor.

 

WHAT I WOULD LIKE IT TO BE:

 

Advantage:

* Bonus +1 attack bonus and damage /3 levels. All weapons that they wield are considered +1 magical weapons for every three levels they have. Maximum +5.

* +1 generic armor bonus, +1 every three levels.

* -1 bonus to Speed Factor for every 4 levels.

* May use 'Focus' ability one time per day for every 4 levels: this ability lasts 10 seconds and makes all attacks do maximum damage.

 

Disadvantages:

* May not use missile weapons.

* May not use armor.

* May not use shields.

* May not specialize in weapon and shield style.

* May not use magical weapons.

 

WIZARD SLAYER: This warrior has been specially trained by his sect to excel in hunting and attacking spellcasters of all kinds.

 

Advantages:

* Each hit on opponent spellcaster increases the chance of spell disruption by 5%.

* Gains 1% magic resistance each level.

* +4 attack bonus and Damage vs. Wizards and Sorcerers.

 

Disadvantages:

* May not use any magic items except for weapons and armor.

 

Ranger Kits

 

ARCHER: The archer is the epitome of skill with the bow. He or she is the ultimate marksman, able to make almost any shot, no matter how difficult. To achieve their level of skill, archers sacrifice attention to melee weapons and racial enemies.

 

Advantages:

* Archers may achieve Mastery in missile weapons.

* Every 4 levels he or she gains the ability to make a called shot once per day. When he or she activates this ability, any shot made within the next 10 seconds is augmented in the following manner (according to the level of the archer):

4th level: -1 to attack bonus of target.

8th level: -1 to Saving Throw vs. Magic of target.

12th level: -1 to Strength of target.

16th level: +2 bonus to Damage.

These effects are cumulative.

 

Disadvantages:

* An archer may only become proficient in Melee weapons; he or she may never specialize.

* Archers may not select hated enemies.

 

GIANT KILLER: The classic heroes of countless tales throughout the Realms, giant killers are rangers who devote their efforts towards the protection of civilized lands from evil giants and their kin.

 

Advantages:

* +1 attack bonus per level vs. Giants, Ogres, and Trolls.

* +1 to Damage per level vs. Giants, Ogres, and Trolls.

 

Disadvantages:

* Giant killers may not select a racial enemy.

* Giant killers are unable to track.

 

STALKER: Stalkers serve as covert intelligence-gatherers, comfortable in both wilderness and urban settings. They are the spies, informants and interrogators... and their mastery of stealth makes them deadly opponents.

 

Advantages:

* +10% to Stealth.

* May make Sneak Attacks as if a Rogue of half the Stalker's level.

 

Disadvantages:

* May not wear armor greater than Studded Leather.

* May only use a Rogue's selection of weapons.

 

Paladin Kits

 

CAVALIER: The name "cavalier" represents an attitude rather than a profession. The cavalier is a fearless combatant against monstrous opponents, inspiring others with his or her fearless dedication and prowess in battle. Cavaliers always fight at the front of every battle, choosing to use close-combat melee weapons over weapons with reach.

 

Advantages:

* +3 Attack Bonus and Damage vs. demonic and draconic creatures.

* Remove Fear 1/day/level.

* Immunity to poison.

* 3rd level: Emotion Control: Courage 1/day.

 

Disadvantages:

* May not use missile weapons, halberds, or spears.

* May not use armor less than splint mail.

 

INQUISITOR: The inquisitor has dedicated his or her life to finding and eliminating practitioners of evil magic and defeating the forces of darkness.

 

Advantages:

* May use Inquisitor Dispel Magic 1/day/4 levels: ability is used at speed factor 1.

* Immune to hold and charm spells.

* 7th level: Spell Shield 1/Day.

* 9th level: Miscast Magic 1/Day.

* 15th level: Anti-Magic Shell 1/Day.

 

Disadvantages:

* May not use Lay on Hands.

* May not cast priest spells.

* May not use Cure Disease.

 

VOTARY: Grim, intensely devoted champions of their faith, votaries are the bane of all evil priests. Votaries are known for their vehement dislike for all foreign religions and their skill at dispatching the agents of such faiths.

 

Advantages:

* +4 attack bonus and Damage vs. Clerics and Druids.

* 1 additional spell per spell level the votary is able to cast.

* 1 additional Holy Smite per day/4 levels.

 

Disadvantages:

* May not use Lay on Hands.

* May not use Cure Disease.

 

Cleric Kits

 

SILVERSTAR OF SELUNE: The goddess of the moon, Selune, is popular across the Forgotten Realms. Her priests are champions of goodness and freedom. They preach tolerance and acceptance and wage war against hatred and ignorance.

 

Advantages:

* May cast Moon Motes (cone of electricity, 4-16 damage) 1/3 levels/day.

* May cast Moonblade 1/5 levels/day.

* May cast Wall of Moonlight 1/10 levels/day.

 

Disadvantages:

* Cannot turn undead.

 

BATTLEGUARD OF TEMPUS: Priests of the god of war can be found wherever there is conflict in the Realms. They believe that the execution of war makes civilization stronger for future generations. Battleguards act in the belief that death on the battlefield is one of the most honorable ways to die.

 

Advantages:

* Battleguards can use and gain proficiency in any weapon type.

* Battleguards can incite a berserk rage in themselves 1/4 levels/day.

* Battleguards can cast Prayer 1/5 levels/day.

 

Disadvantages:

* Battleguards cannot turn undead.

 

DREADMASTER OF BANE: The most feared and reviled deity in the Forgotten Realms, Bane is the lord of strife, hatred, and tyranny. His followers fight each other almost as much as enemy faiths, which is one of the prime reasons their devious priesthood has not dominated the Realms.

 

Advantages:

* Dreadmasters are immune to all Fear effects.

* Dreadmasters may cast Cloak of Fear 1/4 levels/day.

* Dreadmasters may cast Dominate 1/5 levels/day.

 

Disadvantages:

* Dreadmasters may not turn undead.

 

Druid Kits

 

AES DANA: Among the more civic-minded of druids, the aes dana are well versed in history, frequently assist war bands, and heal the wounded after battle. Druids like the aes dana are often found in the Moonshae Isles.

 

Advantages:

* +10 to Lore.

* 3rd level: Cure Moderate Wounds 1/Day.

* 5th level: Prayer 1/Day.

* 7th level: Recitation 1/Day.

 

Disadvantages:

* Cannot shapeshift into animals, only elementals at high levels.

 

AVENGER: A member of a special sect within a druidic order, a druid of this type is dedicated to fighting those who would defile nature. Avengers have powers the average druid does not; additional abilities that have been earned through extensive rituals, a process that is very physically draining.

 

Advantages:

* 3rd level: Beast Claw 2/Day.

* 5th level: Spike Growth 2/Day.

* 7th level: Thorn Spray 2/Day.

 

Disadvantages:

* May not shapeshift into animals, only elementals at high levels.

 

SHAPESHIFTER: These druids master their shapechanging abilities much more extensively than others and train intensely to increase their powers throughout their life.

 

Advantages:

* All normal druidic shapechanging powers.

* 9th level: shapeshift into arctic boar.

* 11th level: shapeshift into black panther.

* 13th level: shapeshift into shambling mound.

 

Disadvantages:

* Do not gain Poison Immunity.

* Do not gain Timeless Body.

 

Rogue Kits:

 

ARCANE ROGUE: Combining the skills of a rogue with minor magical powers, the arcane rogue is a potent scout and decoy. The arcane rogue focuses less time on lethal combat than his or her fellow rogues.

 

Advantages:

* +10% to Use Magic Device.

* 5th level: Invisibility 1/day.

* 9th level: Improved Invisibility 1/day.

* 11th level: Dimension Door 1/day.

* 15th level, Shades 1/day.

 

Disadvantages:

* -10% on all rogue skills except Use Magic Device.

* Cannot make Sneak Attacks.

 

ASSASSIN: This is a killer trained in discreet and efficient murder, thriving on anonymity and surprise to perform his or her tasks.

 

Advantages:

* May coat weapon in poison once per day per 4 levels. The next hit with that weapon will inject the poison into the target, dealing out 6 damage every 6 seconds for 30 seconds. A saving throw vs. poison limits damage to 6 total. The strength of the poison increases at 10th level. At 20th level, it also slows targets.

* +1 Attack Bonus and Damage.

 

Disadvantages:

* Only 15% per level to distribute on skills.

 

SWASHBUCKLER: This rogue is part acrobat, part swordsman and part wit... the epitome of charm and grace. A swashbuckler fights with dramatic flair and deadly precision. Due a swashbuckler's healthy sense of pride, they do not deign to learn the roguish talent for Sneak Attacks.

 

Advantages:

* -1 to AC/5 levels.

* +1 to Hit and Damage/5 levels.

* May specialize in any weapons available to thieves.

 

Disadvantages:

* Cannot make Sneak Attacks.

 

Bard Kits

 

BLADE: The Blade is an expert fighter and adventurer whose bardic acting abilities go towards making him appear more intimidating and fearsome. His fighting style is showy but also quite deadly.

 

Advantages:

* Blades automatically have an extra proficiency slot in the Two-Weapon fighting style.

* 3rd level: Trick Shot: When Blades critically hit, they cause Blindness (50% chance) or Slow (50% chance) for five rounds unless a save vs. death is made. Undead, constructs, and elementals are immune to these effects.

* 5th level: Offensive Spin: When a Blade activates this ability, he or she gains a +2 attack bonus and a +2 bonus to damage for ten rounds. He or she can use this ability 3/day.

* 7th level: Defensive Spin: When a Blade activates this ability, he or she gains a +2 generic armor class and saving throw bonus for ten rounds. He or she can use this ability 3/day.

 

Disadvantages:

* Only has one-half Lore value.

* Can only play the Ballad of Three Heroes bard song.

 

RIDDLEMASTER: This bard uses odd, confusing riddles to infuriate and dazzle opponents. As a riddlemaster gains experience, he or she learns more powerful riddles in the same manner that a traditional bard learns songs.

 

Advantages:

* 3rd level: The Infuriating Dilemma: This riddle is so annoying to the target that he or she goes berserk for five rounds. It is useable 3/day.

* 5th level: King's Logic: The riddlemaster presents a logic puzzle so fascinating that the target is stunned for five rounds. It is useable 3/day.

* 7th level: Gram's Paradox: All enemy creatures within 20' of the riddlemaster are confused for five rounds. It is useable 1/day.

* 9th level: Foolproof: The riddlemaster is immune to all confusion, fear, and berserk effects.

* 11th level: Conundrum: The target of this incredibly difficult riddle is subjected to a Feeblemind spell. It is useable 3/day.

 

Disadvantages:

* All deaf/silenced creatures, elementals, undead, animals, and constructs are immune to the riddlemaster's riddles. Creatures with Intelligence under 5 or over 19 are immune to the riddles as well. All creatures receive a saving throw vs. spell against the effects.

* Riddlemasters only gain the Ballad of Three Heroes bard song.

 

SKALD: This is a tribal bard who is also a warrior of great strength, skill and virtue. His songs are inspiring sagas of battle and valor, and the skald devotes his life to those pursuits.

 

Advantages:

* Skalds have +1 attack bonus and Damage with all weapons.

* 3rd level: Heroic Inspiration: Every time a member of the party (PC) dies, the Skald gains +1 attack bonus and damage, up to a maximum of +5. This bonus lasts as long as enemies are in view.

* 11th level: Inspire Fury: At 11th level, the Skald gains the ability to incite Blood Rage 1/Day.

 

Disadvantages:

* Skalds have -10% to Pick Pockets and Use Magic Device.

* Skalds gain half as many points in Pick Pockets and Use Magic Device, per level.

 

 

I believe it was also suggested to add the Sorcerer, Monk and Barbarian classes:

 

 

Sorcerer Class

 

Sorcerers are practitioners of magic who were born with the innate ability to cast spells. It is thought that the blood of some powerful creature flows through their veins; perhaps they even are the spawn of dragons walking in humanoid form. Regardless, the Sorcerer's magic is intuitive rather than logical. They know fewer spells than wizards, and acquire spells more slowly, but they can cast spells more often and have no need to select and prepare spells ahead of time. Sorcerers cannot specialize in magic the way wizards do. Other than these differences, a Sorcerer is very similar to the wizard.

 

NOTE: A sorcerer does NOT learn spells from scrolls. He chooses new spells with each level. A sorcerer's prime requisite is CHARISMA.

 

Hit Points per Level: 1-4

Weapons Allowed: Club, Dagger, Dart, Heavy Crossbow, Light Crossbow, Halberd, Mace, Morning Star, Quarter Staff, Spear.

Armor Allowed: None.

 

Monk Class

 

Monks are warriors who pursue perfection through contemplation as well as action. They are versatile fighters, especially skilled in combat without weapons or armor. Though monks cannot cast spells, they have a unique magic of their own. They channel a subtle energy, called ki, which allows them to perform amazing feats. The monk's best-known feat is their ability to stun an opponent with an unarmed blow.

 

Hit Points per Level: 1-8

Weapons Allowed: Club, Dagger, Dart, Long Sword, Mace, Morning Star, Scimitar, Short Sword, Sling.

Armor Allowed: None

 

Advantages:

* The monk can make 1 unarmed attack per round; he gains an additional attack every 3 levels.

* As the monk increases in levels, the damage his fists inflicts does as well:

Level 1-2: 1-6

Level 3-5: 1-8

Level 6-8: 1-10

Level 9-11: 1-12

Level 12-14: 1-12

Level 15-17: 1-20

Level 18+: 1-20

 

* A monk's natural armor bonus gets better as he goes up in levels. His armor bonus starts off at 11, and then increases by 1 for every 2 levels.

* Stunning blow, once per day for every 4 levels. All attacks in the next 6 seconds force the victim to save or be stunned. NOTE: this special ability automatically modifies a Monk's normal attack, no targeting needs to be done.

* Monks have the Deflect Missiles ability. This gives them a +1 to their armor bonus vs missiles for every 3 levels.

* The monk gains a +2 to save vs spells

* A monk starts off moving at +2 move, then +1 move every 5 levels.

* 5th level: Immunity to all diseases, and cannot be Slowed or Hasted.

* 7th level: Lay on Hands to heal 2 hit points per level

* 8th level: -1 to speed factor

* 9th level: +1 to all saves. Immune to charm. The monk's fist is considered a +1 weapon (+2 at 12th, +3 at 15th)

* 11th level: Immune to poison

* 12th level: Another -1 to speed factor. Fists are considered +2 weapons.

* 13th level: Quivering palm spell once per day. This spell gives them one hand attack. If they hit an opponent, the opponent must save or die. NOTE: this special ability automatically modifies a Monk's normal attack, no targeting needs to be done.

* 14th level: The monk gains 3% magic resistance per level (starts at 42% at 14th level)

* 15th level: Fists are considered +3 weapons

 

Disadvantages:

* No armor, limited weapon selection.

 

Barbarian Class

 

A barbarian can be an excellent warrior. While not as disciplined or as skilled as a normal fighter, the barbarian can willingly throw himself into a berserker rage, becoming a tougher and stronger opponent.

 

Advantages:

* They move at 2 points faster than the usual character

* Barbarians are immune to Sneak Attacks

* Can rage once per day per every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use). Rage gives them +4 to constitution and strength for 5 rounds. Gives a 2 point armor bonus penalty and +2 to saves vs magic (for 5 rounds). Rage also gives immunity to all charm, hold, and fear spells

* At 11th level the barbarian gains 2 points of resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing and missile damage. He gains 1 additional point of resistance every 4 levels thereafter.

* The barbarian gains 1-12 hit points per level instead of a fighter's 1-10.

 

Disadvantages:

* A barbarian cannot wear full plate, plate mail.

* A barbarian cannot gain Weapon Mastery, High Mastery, or Grand Mastery.

 

 

So when Gromnir talks about the reaction to IWD2 kits, he means this (or a similar) proposal.  I remember I was excited to try a Landsknecht out as the party leader, but as Gromnir says a lot of people reacted very badly to the idea of not just porting the Kits from BGII over so that they could continue to use those kits - particularly the ones considered to be overpowered.

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I see. I had no idea IWD2 was ever planned as an AD&D game. A lot of those kits are copied from Baldur's Gate 2, but there are also some new ones.

 

As far as light armour/no armour defence goes... I would definitely like that, but the balance concerns people have brought up are very real. Going light already has the advantage of reducing recovery time. It doesn't offset the cost of less protection for a frontline character, but it's really easy to overshoot with compensating for it. Sounds like it happened in Tyranny, but it's not exactly uncommon for going full ninja to be the superior form of protection.

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I see. I had no idea IWD2 was ever planned as an AD&D game. 

you mean other than Gromnir stating it?

 

"am happy to see obsidian is sticking to iwd2 kits pov compared to bg2.  and yes, we know iwd2 didn't have kits, but it were gonna until the developers switched from 2e to 3e.  iwd2 kits did not make the base class less appealing.  "

 

regardless, the list provided does not encompass many o' the initial josh offerings, and most bg2 kits were not present.  the original josh kit suggestions were more tame.  had such stuff as the myrmidon for fighters.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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regardless, the list provided does not encompass many o' the initial josh offerings, and most bg2 kits were not present.  the original josh kit suggestions were more tame.  had such stuff as the myrmidon for fighters.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I thought there was an earlier kit list (as my memory told me the Landsknecht was on a later version of the kit list), but I can't find any listing that has the myrmidon kit.  The Landsknecht is on all the ones I can find (and was mentioned by Sawyer in an interview, so the myrmidon one must have been fairly early).

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regardless, the list provided does not encompass many o' the initial josh offerings, and most bg2 kits were not present.  the original josh kit suggestions were more tame.  had such stuff as the myrmidon for fighters.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I thought there was an earlier kit list (as my memory told me the Landsknecht was on a later version of the kit list), but I can't find any listing that has the myrmidon kit.  The Landsknecht is on all the ones I can find (and was mentioned by Sawyer in an interview, so the myrmidon one must have been fairly early).

 

yeah, the early suggestions were near universal reviled. landsknecht is kinda the point at which josh seemed on the verge throwing in the towel on trying to sell balanced kits which would not trivialize the base classes.  

 

am admitting we cannot find a list o' the initial kits either, but has been a long time.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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