Romance

[Leeuwenhart]

Anomen Bromance confirmed!

[Blarghagh]

Edit: Nevermind, I'm butting out of this hornets nest.

[WotanAnubis]

Ok....

 

Then wait for society to change and you will have your all girl rpg.

 

Meanwhile ill be gaming.

 

 

You do understand that PEOPLE change society because they choose to?

 

Wait, hang on.

 

Do I have to passively wait for society to change, or do I have to actively choose to go and change society? Or do I not count as PEOPLE?

[Varana]

Marginalized people are socialized with an understanding of what makes privileged people tick, but not vice-versa. Women know how men work. Poor people know how rich people work. Black people know how white people work. Natives know how settlers work. Disabled people know how abled people work. The reverse is not true. If you try to write a marginalized identity that you do not have, you will **** it up. If you work really really hard and do your research you can minimize that ****-up, but you can't eliminate it.

Now that is equally bull****.

There isn't a way "all of those {conveniently pigeonholed group of people} work". People are socialised with the patterns and aspects of behaviour that are relevant to them - at best. They might not even know one of the other group, personally. But what you're writing is a character (err... I hope), not "member of {group X}".

Claiming to have something "special" that no one else understands, might be comforting. It might be a useful thing to say if you want to have more writers of {group Y} writing about same group by claiming that others "get them wrong".

It's still nonsense.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Varana

[Leeuwenhart]

Haha... me too. I always took his gear and left him naked in the woods hahaha

 

Poor anomen

Edited February 20, 2017 by Leeuwenhart

[Baramos]

Also: Men like to pretend that there's some sort of special nugget of maleness that women can't possibly understand, and thus that only men can "properly" write men, but this just isn't true. The essence of privilege is the option of ignorance. Men can go through their entire lives without understanding womanhood but women can't survive without an understanding of manhood. Trans people don't get the option of not understanding cis people. We can write you, but you can't write us.

 

I don't understand this logic at all. 

 

All this logic does is further the divide between races and gender. 

[Leeuwenhart]

Edit: Nevermind, I'm butting out of this hornets nest.

"The better part of valor! The better part of valor!"

 

 

I like that comment sooo much. 10/10

[Nicze]

Marginalized people are socialized with an understanding of what makes privileged people tick, but not vice-versa. Women know how men work.

Really? I didn't know that I know how men work, thank you for enlightening me. Also I don't feel marginalized as a woman, thank you for telling me that I should.

[injurai]

Ah yes, straight white cis affluent settler people. Because everyone can write them, but they can't write anyone else. Because that is the issue. Not that human beings suffer colossal deficiency of knowledge and inability to grapple with the world around them. Sure privilege exists, but using identity politics to dehumanize anyone who's identity correlates with privilege as being inherently incapable of understanding is a great way to form your rhetoric and semantics.

​

​Just in the freaks thread Micamo you claimed that sane people are incapable of writing insane people. It's like all you care about it elevating your own identity to a special place. I bet it feels really good to do so. It's probably the same high white supremacists feel when thinking about their own identity.

[Leeuwenhart]

Ah yes, straight white cis affluent settler people. Because everyone can write them, but they can't write anyone else. Because that is the issue. Not that human beings suffer colossal deficiency of knowledge and inability to grapple with the world around them. Sure privilege exists, but using identity politics to dehumanize anyone who's identity correlates with privilege as being inherently incapable of understanding is a great way to form your rhetoric and semantics.

​

​Just in the freaks thread Micamo you claimed that sane people are incapable of writing insane people. It's like all you care about it elevating your own identity to a special place. I bet it feels really good to do so. It's probably the same high white supremacists feel when thinking about their own identity.

@micamo

 

Think you might need this:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

[Karkarov]

Marginalized people are socialized with an understanding of what makes privileged people tick, but not vice-versa. Women know how men work. Poor people know how rich people work. Black people know how white people work. Natives know how settlers work. Disabled people know how abled people work. The reverse is not true. If you try to write a marginalized identity that you do not have, you will **** it up. If you work really really hard and do your research you can minimize that ****-up, but you can't eliminate it.

Yeah this is a load of crap.

 

There is no such thing as sweeping groups you are talking about, everyone has individual trials and troubles.  Yes some more than others, but I have never met a person whose life is without some tragedy.  A white guy who grew up in a rich family most certainly can come to understand, and relate to, a black guy who grew up in the ghetto.  And vice versa. 

 

A person who actually experiences a trauma will obviously be better able to articulate what that trauma was like.  That doesn't mean a person who has not experienced it can not also understand it, and articulate that though.  Maybe they will not be as qualified to do so, but they can still do it in a reasonable and respectable way.

 

Or do you really think rich people don't know what being poor is like?  My former boss at work is a multi millionaire.  He makes nearing a half mill a year.  He spent his childhood growing up in a dirt poor town, in a dirt poor family, in the midwest USA where his entire household income was less than the average single American median salary.  He very much so understands what it is like to be poor, why do you think he works so hard at being rich?

[Micamo]

 

Marginalized people are socialized with an understanding of what makes privileged people tick, but not vice-versa. Women know how men work. Poor people know how rich people work. Black people know how white people work. Natives know how settlers work. Disabled people know how abled people work. The reverse is not true. If you try to write a marginalized identity that you do not have, you will **** it up. If you work really really hard and do your research you can minimize that ****-up, but you can't eliminate it.

Now that is equally bull****.

There isn't a way "all of those {conveniently pigeonholed group of people} work". People are socialised with the patterns and aspects of behaviour that are relevant to them - at best. They might not even know one of the other group, personally. But what you're writing is a character (err... I hope), not "member of {group X}".

Claiming to have something "special" that no one else understands, might be comforting. It might be a useful thing to say if you want to have more writers of {group Y} writing about same group by claiming that others "get them wrong".

It's still nonsense.

 

 

You can't write "a character, not a 'member of {group X}'" because that's not how it works: Identity and group membership are a core part of the self and thus a core part of a character. My disabilities, my queerness, my femininity, are inseparably part of me. There's no magical pure "self" you can get to by stripping those away. If you tried to write a character like me and ignored those things you'd get someone I wouldn't even recognize.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Che was right, west should have been nuked.

[Leeuwenhart]

Kanye?

 

 

 

 

Mmmmm...

 

Tomorrow the writers come back and slap everybody across the board for this topic...

 

 

Hey guys. How bout getting back on track?

 

 

Romance!

Edited February 20, 2017 by Leeuwenhart

[Nicze]

Hey guys. How bout getting back on track?

 

 

Romance!

Since apparently I have acquired a passive ability that allows me to know "how men work", I think I'm going to start writing an Eder x Aloth fanfiction.

[Leeuwenhart]

 

Hey guys. How bout getting back on track?

 

 

Romance!

Since apparently I have acquired a passive ability that allows me to know "how men work", I think I'm going to start writing an Eder x Aloth fanfiction.

Besides racial talents and subracial skills now

 

Gender Passive abilities!

 

For women: they know how men work.

 

 

Great. Now you guys can go to work everyday and we can game and take care of that brat in the other room that keeps interupting our special time on tuesday night because i cant on any other day because im tired from work and busy from work...

 

Wait a minute...

 

No work=Every Night is Special Time.

 

 

Wife comes home 5h later:

"Im tired. I know that look. Work was hard. Save it for tuesdays."

 

#fml

Edited February 20, 2017 by Leeuwenhart

[Blarghagh]

To be fair though, I would like to address claims that women don't play video games (side note: anecdotal experience =/= gatekeeping) - where the **** does this idea come from?

 

Let me explain my scepticism:

- I'm writing this while my fiancee is playing Overwatch right next to me

- Two of her best friends have their own streaming channels on Twitch and so does my sister-in-law

- At least three of my female friends are much more hardcore gamers than me and one of those is a game dev who worked on Killzone and Horizon Zero Dawn

- I grew up watching my mother, who is now 60, play Diablo, Command and Conquer and Age of Empires and she can STILL kick my ass

 

While I'm totally willing to admit I might be an exception and in a unique position as a freelance animator who often works on games, and my experience is just as anecdotal, but a claim like saying finding a gamer girl is hitting a jackpot when I've literally been surrounded by them all my life sounds to me like the claim of a guy who just isn't paying attention?

[Leeuwenhart]

Ok. Lets talk about anecdotal.

 

How many mothers like yours do you know?

 

And your gf is a gamer.

How many other girls are like that.

 

I never in 1 post said there were no female gamers.

 

I just said in quantity

 

Male gamers>Female gamers

 

By a wide margin.

 

 

Now most people are friends because they share interests and characters. Thats why your friends game. Your female friends game. But look at gfs of those friends or people not from your inner circle and how that goes.

 

Thats why i gave an example of friends+families.

 

Bz their spouses you dont pick. You get them bz they fall in love / are attracted to them. So you get people in your friends pool that are different.

 

Like i said. You go online you can find 1000 gamer girls.

 

But a million gamer guys.

 

 

Also...

 

Paying attention to what?

Like girls that hide and play on my games when i sleep?

 

If you play on ps network how many times you get grouped with guys... how many female voices between them?

 

I played Destiny for 2 years cannot remember 5 times i got teamed with a girl.

 

Once again:

 

No gamer girl= not what i said. Ever.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Leeuwenhart

[JerekKruger]

@TrueNeutral: I think it's a statistical thing rather than an absolute statement. It's similar to saying "men have more physical strength* than women". Of course there are some very strong women, and some very weak men, but the statement is shorthand for "the average man has more physical strength than the average woman". Similarly, "women don't play video games" is short hand for "far fewer women (as a proportion of overall population) play video games than men".

 

That said, it is much less true these days. I'd be surprised if there is any demographic where the proportion of women who play video games is equal to (or higher) than men, but I also think the gap is much lower than it used to be, particularly in younger demographics.

 

*To be precise, I am talking about maximal force produced by muscular contraction here.

[Ninjamestari]

To be fair though, I would like to address claims that women don't play video games (side note: anecdotal experience =/= gatekeeping) - where the **** does this idea come from?

 

Let me explain my scepticism:

- I'm writing this while my fiancee is playing Overwatch right next to me

- Two of her best friends have their own streaming channels on Twitch and so does my sister-in-law

- At least three of my female friends are much more hardcore gamers than me and one of those is a game dev who worked on Killzone and Horizon Zero Dawn

- I grew up watching my mother, who is now 60, play Diablo, Command and Conquer and Age of Empires and she can STILL kick my ass

 

While I'm totally willing to admit I might be an exception and in a unique position as a freelance animator who often works on games, and my experience is just as anecdotal, but a claim like saying finding a gamer girl is hitting a jackpot when I've literally been surrounded by them all my life sounds to me like the claim of a guy who just isn't paying attention?

 

Do you even realize how much I want to say just "**** you and stuff your good luck where the sun don't shine"? :D

 

Now I'm just jealous as ****.

[Leeuwenhart]

For an anecdote of my own:

 

I work in food service for 15 years now.

5 as an employee.

10 as a boss.

 

I have an open kitchen by the bar. Means while i cook and make their food we talk.

 

For 10 years ive talked to 1000s of people.

 

People not from my little circle of friends.

 

Im an open book. My customers know me. And we talk about everything.

 

Everybody at the counter is in on the conversation. 20 people at once.

 

If the topic of gaming pops up

 

(Which does often with the younger folk since i wear merch to work sometimes.)

 

i dont see looks of recognition or nods of approval there just is a disconnect.

 

They dont share that passion.

(The ones that do are zealouts haha praise them!)

 

Im not talking hyperbolic here.

Its not that im blind... bz like i said people look for friends other people that share interests.

 

I look for it. And dont see it anywhere.

Not in those numbers.

 

 

All my buddies are gamers.

All their wifes/gfs not.

 

 

 

Maybe its an age thing.

Im 35.

 

Maybe 20s got boatloads of girl gamers...

 

 

But my gf is 21. And none of her sisters her mother (40) her cousins her friends game.

 

And shes from another country.

 

And another social layer of society.

 

 

So its not all close to me.

 

 

Heck ... we looked so hard for 1 femake member of our d&d group i had to seduce girls into it after i seduced them into bed!

 

 

Rolls for charisma check*...

 

Tek tek tektek...tek. Natural 1.

 

"Thats hard sheesh... where were the days of my nat 20s" XD

 

 

 

 

Also... arent you a mod and supposed to defuse the situation? XDXDXD

Edited February 20, 2017 by Leeuwenhart

[Varana]

Micamo: But no one's trying to write you. Everyone's experiencing their identity in their own, personal way. There are broad patterns, but those are the ones you can research. I didn't talk about stripping these things away; of course they're integral to a character. But how they affect a character, how they behave as a result of them, is never identical in two human beings. Even if a character shares many of those identities with you, it's perfectly possible that she's very different from you. (And it's guaranteed that she will be different at all.) We are shaped by our identities, we are not pre-determined by them.

Taken to its conclusion, what you are saying is that no one can write about anything except themselves (and given how much of us is subconscious, probably not even that). That is demonstrably not true. We can write believable characters who are not us but speak even to those sharing some identities with them, we have done it for millennia.

[tinysalamander]

Not to sound insensitive, but it still feels crazy to me how US (west?) people are going about it, on both sides. Not romance wars but male-female (and similar) issues. I’m still not quite sure this is not some act to deceive everyone else %)  All it does is divides you

[Leeuwenhart]

Not to sound insensitive, but it still feels crazy to me how US (west?) people are going about it, on both sides. Not romance wars but male-female (and similar) issues. I’m still not quite sure this is not some act to deceive everyone else %) All it does is divides you

"You should see the other guys"

 

[Big-Ben]

I realize this pretty heavy for a first post but I'd like to say something about understanding and writing people. The very idea that a person cannot come to understand another person and talk about their issues is so utterly ridiculous to me and I'll explain why. I'm going to use a very dark example from my own life to illustrate this.

 

At first glance I appear normal. I'm white. Male. All that stuff. No would suspect that I'm a victim of sexual violence perpetrated by a woman. It's a core part my identity and has caused numerous issues in my life. Some of it is very serious. For a long time I kept it quiet because I thought no one would ever understand what happened to me or would care. I was very wrong.

 

I finally confided to a friend I met online about this. She is a woman and lives in entirely different country. Speaks English alongside her native tongue. I at first thought I was going to be discarded and thrown away. But I wasn't. I was embraced and she's done everything in her power to try and make me comfortable. Everything. She has listened instead of judged. She has uplifted instead of discarded. Our friendship has only grown with this revelation. The understanding between us has changed ten fold. I would trust her ten times over to write my story because she is empathetic enough to understand my situation.

 

I'd be happy to elaborate if need be. The very idea that a person cannot understand another person and write about them is wrong. I'm sorry to be so blunt. The key word people need to learn is empathy.