Romance

evilcat · February 17, 2017

As for bad Romance idea:

Aloth, he is not really into, serious stuff, need to shuffle grimuars and all that Jazz. And Isemyr is like: Man, give books a break, lets have some fun, fun, fun. She will also keep giving dating tips "be more confident" "It is not gay if you can polymorph".

Silent Winter · February 17, 2017

So... do we want to discuss what romances everyone is looking forward to? Or hoping that they will be implemented?

Iselmyr's romance path obviously.

Iselmyr should have a romance/bromance with Aloth - they could leave each other notes

Osvir · February 17, 2017

I see it in two ways:

A) I don't want love for my main character, the Watcher. The only case that would make most sense to me would be in a sort of "We understand it's love but it doesn't need to express itself yet" type of thing, where the Watcher and his loved one are in understanding of their purpose and what needs to be done, the sense of urgency of the PLOT. No kissing or cuddling or anything, just a mature relationship. If there's going to be any sort of Love Interest for Watcher, it better happen at the very end, in a sort of cliff-hanger "Are they going to, or not?". A sort of speculative ending, where the Player can only guess if the Watcher+Love Interest made it.

Then, if there's a second sequel, the Watcher+Love Interest can start off from the start, and suddenly we have Khaleed & Jaheira, an established relationship that doesn't need all that puppy love or anything, they're just comfortable with each other. Anybody who's had a real relationship knows that, sure, the puppy love-state is all gullible and all (and a bit nauseating), but it's when it matures and grows that it's the very best, when the childish manners are (mostly) gone or cut off, and the responsible bond has nurtured, and you just know "This is my second half". Before that it's just... "playtime".

And I know from when Pillars 1 was in development, and these threads where all over, Romances was ultimately about "playtime". Playtime isn't "Romantic", it's a fling, summer lovin', someone you meet in the evening, and leave in the morning.

If the Watcher is going to have Romance, then it better be that sort of love that is the Watcher's "Second Half". And in that case, there should only be ONE single character that the Watcher CAN have Romantic interest with, and there should be a specific or single path to get there.

Say, if Maia is THE ONE, then there should be a specific path in dialogue, conversations, choices and consequences and so on and so forth, and YOU would have to figure it out. A meaningful THE ONE. Haven't seen that one in any RPG, it's more or less "You can play with everybody *wink wink*". Not some Playtime Buffet where every-single-companion is Romanceable. "But we have to be serviceable and incloooshive!". NO. You do not have to be inclusive.

B) I have no problem at all with Eder, Aloth, Pallegina, Serafan, Maia, finding their true love in any of the companions, if any direction takes that path. I mean, Khaleed and Jaheira are perfectly fine, in my opinion, their relationship doesn't bother anyone, and one can only imagine what they are doing at least once or twice during a Rest sequence. We don't get the exposition and we don't need the exposition either. Maybe that's just it?

Whatever the characters do off-screen, implicitly, I don't care about. Heck, when you're in Defiance Bay, who can say that Eder isn't going to the Salty Mast every night? No one can, just leave it to imagination.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Osvir

Ninjamestari · February 17, 2017

Have to agree with Osvir here. A strong no to emotion-porn from me.

Osvir · February 17, 2017

I need to express another thing as well.

I don't want Eder, Aloth, Pallegina, Maia Rua, Serafan or the Blue Man Dude to come to the Watcher and ask for relationship advice "I think he/she likes me, what should I do?". Don't go that route Obsidian. If anything happens between companions in any way, let it happen, but the Watcher isn't anyone's Dad or Mom and doesn't need to be doting or play any sort of Couples Therapy. They don't need the Watcher's permission.

Thanks.

CENIC · February 17, 2017

So... do we want to discuss what romances everyone is looking forward to? Or hoping that they will be implemented?

I agree that Eder is probably a given, because EVERYONE loves Eder.

I'm hoping for Aloth, because I roleplayed my elf rogue Watcher having a soft spot for him in Pillars 1. It would be interesting to see how Islmyr affects a potential romance plot... my Watcher told Aloth to harmonize with her, but that means they would be having a threeway...

Osvir · February 17, 2017

And I know from when Pillars 1 was in development, and these threads where all over, Romances was ultimately about "playtime". Playtime isn't "Romantic", it's a fling, summer lovin', someone you meet in the evening, and leave in the morning.

So... do we want to discuss what romances everyone is looking forward to? Or hoping that they will be implemented?

I agree that Eder is probably a given, because EVERYONE loves Eder.

I'm hoping for Aloth, because I roleplayed my elf rogue Watcher having a soft spot for him in Pillars 1. It would be interesting to see how Islmyr affects a potential romance plot... my Watcher told Aloth to harmonize with her, but that means they would be having a threeway...

Ultimately (which also can translate into "In the end") it all boils down to fap-fantasy. Stay away demon!

shutterstock_106195499.jpg?1362686095

Nicze · February 17, 2017

the Watcher isn't anyone's Dad or Mom

I don't know about that, I already tell everyone what to wear, what to eat, what to learn and when to sleep. (Anyway, I agree about not giving relationship advice.)

CENIC · February 17, 2017

Ultimately (which also can translate into "In the end") it all boils down to fap-fantasy. Stay away demon!

I can't see Obsidian going in that direction.

They said that the ways in which you choose to influence companions will affect how the relationship develops - which I read as "love" will only be possible for specific companions and even then only under very specific circumstances. For Aloth, perhaps that means "only if you told him to sublimate Islmyr." It would avoid the threesome implications and everything that goes with it, anyway.

Osvir · February 17, 2017

the Watcher isn't anyone's Dad or Mom

I don't know about that, I already tell everyone what to wear, what to eat, what to learn and when to sleep. (Anyway, I agree about not giving relationship advice.)

You, the omnipotent Player looking down on the party, do. We are the Watcher's/Party's Mom & Dad, in that sense

Ultimately (which also can translate into "In the end") it all boils down to fap-fantasy. Stay away demon!

I can't see Obsidian going in that direction.

They said that the ways in which you choose to influence companions will affect how the relationship develops - which I read as "love" will only be possible for specific companions and even then only under very specific circumstances. For Aloth, perhaps that means "only if you told him to sublimate Islmyr." It would avoid the threesome implications and everything that goes with it, anyway.

The appalling part of Romances isn't what Developers can do with it, it's what people want from it *shudders*

Edited February 17, 2017 by Osvir

Leeuwenhart · February 17, 2017

Iselmyr Aloth romance XD

Azarkon · February 18, 2017

In my opinion, which I will not elaborate too much so as to avoid side tracking, all games - but especially CRPGs - have a kernel of wish fulfillment. We experience CRPGs vicariously, and it is not an accident that people often emotionally identify with their characters. This is not to say all games should make you feel happy. Aristotle emphasized the importance of pathos and catharsis as functions of drama. Tragic stories can also fulfill emotional needs.

But the central reason I bring up wish fulfillment with respect to romances in games, is that I want to warn developers against creating characters that no one wants to vicariously romance. There's that word again. As I mentioned above, romance is fundamentally a function of attraction, mostly physical, but also psychological and spiritual. You can't fake attraction, just as you can't fake excitement about a dramatic situation that ought to be exciting, but isn't because of the way it's presented, the competence of execution, etc. You would never say that the action segments of a game being boring is the fault of the player not being able to put themselves in the character's shoes, so by that same argument, you should never say that romantic characters being unattractive is the fault of the player putting too much of themselves & their own standards into their character.

Thus, foremost in a romance designer's mind must be the appeal of the character of interest. Attraction is, unfortunately, a deeply personal experience for which general principles can only serve as guidelines. Nonetheless, I'd say that, unless your purpose is to troll the player base, being too flippant about the nature of attraction is a bad idea. Romances can be experimental. They can involve subversion. They should be original. But they should never take the player's interest as granted. You need to earn that interest, and Obsidian especially should be cautious, because they already have a reputation for being reluctant to introduce romantic relationships, which could become a self-fulfilling destiny should they fail to create compelling interests. That would reflect poorly on the company, and would also reinforce its negative association with romantic themes, to the detriment of all.

I don't see discussing romance and its implementation in games as a side track in the romance thread.

Anyhow, I dislike the term 'wish fulfillment' precisely because it has a connotation of lacking in the player actually having to work at or towards a goal. The player wants it, so they're going to get it; this is true whether the wish is fulfilled in their wildest fashions or in a 'monkey's paw' sort of way to create drama.

"You would never say that the action segments of a game being boring is the fault of the player not being able to put themselves in the character's shoes, so by that same argument, you should never say that romantic characters being unattractive is the fault of the player putting too much of themselves & their own standards into their character." Not finding a romantic character attractive or viable for the player character is inevitable, as its a function of character and no character can appeal to everyone.

If I say I don't like Durance its either because (a) he's non-optimal for my party build from a functional standpoint or (b) I dislike him as a character. In the case of (b), should games not include a non-player character I don't like? If your answer is yes, then I disagree with the concept that NPCs have to be universally likeable (I'd also argue that it would be fundamentally impossible to create); if your answer is no, then I disagree that a distinction needs to be made in the subset of character that is romance.

To me, if you're building non-player characters with the idea that any one (or all) has to be attractive to the player you're losing sight of the NPC as a character and as such, the NPC has lost any agency they might have had in the narrative.

IMO, YMMV.

I don't think requiring effort on the side of the player conflicts with wish fulfillment, since it feeds into the feeling of achievement which is what produces personal satisfaction. Being a hero would feel a lot less fun without overcoming actual challenges. The same applies to romance: it'd feel a lot less fun without there being obstacles. So I agree with the idea that it shouldn't be handed to the player, just as winning the game or getting the best ending shouldn't be handed to the player.

On the topic of attraction - you can't ever appeal to everyone, but it's easy to see how you might appeal to most people. There's a more general problem, here, which is that modern Western CRPG developers tend to be too afraid of the 'wish fulfillment' criticism, so they put romance on a pedestal and utterly ignore how basic it is. Or they try too hard to be 'progressive' in their thinking, and end up like Bioware. Statements like 'romance is hard to get right,' or 'we don't do romance because it takes too much resources,' are evidence of this problem. Romance isn't that hard, and no one is expecting the love story of their life in a video game, so why so many excuses?

As for the question, do you need attractive characters? The answer is, as always - it depends, but provided that you want player romances to be a component of your game, you'd be making it very hard on yourself to answer no. And this issue, here, is what I'm most worried about with respect to developers who exist in an environment in which they are constantly being told that conventional standards of attraction shouldn't matter, because they sure as hell do matter down here on Earth.

Could attractive characters contradict narrative and character building goals? Sure. A game like Gears of War would not necessarily benefit. But then Gears of War does not expect the player to romance squad mates, either, so there's no conflict. A game that does expect its romances to be valuable content, however, has a different cost benefit analysis. You don't need to make everyone look like a celebrity, but the film industry wouldn't be able to operate without celebrities, would it?

What I'm trying to get at is actually very simple: don't be so terrified or disgusted by conventional standards of attraction; don't try to make romantic love into more than it actually is; don't make romances that most people wouldn't find appealing. Of course, these are guide lines, not absolute rules. You certainly can and should experiment with characters that are exceptions, but remember: exceptions exist because there is a rule.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Azarkon

Bonte · February 18, 2017

Never know. Aloth could be into men only lol.

That'd be funny (even though it'd break my rogue's heart) because Iselmyr keeps hitting on ladies in party bander. The general idea of Aloth's romance sounds interesting, what with his Awakenedness.

I never really brought Aloth with me, so I didn't know Iselmyr flirted with the ladies. That would be interesting romance, especially if Aloth never abolished Iselmyr.

Micamo · February 18, 2017

Honestly I'm mostly interested in seeing how they choose to interpret and implement the idea of romance subplots given it's something they've avoided for a long time. Demanding that they appeal to me in particular is not only likely to muddy the waters of that interpretation, but far as I know, everyone on the writing team is straight, cisgendered, allosexual, sane, and abled. I've seen what happens when writers like that try to write weird queer/MI romance stuff that appeals to me and it's never, ever any good.

PK htiw klaw eriF · February 18, 2017

Slavoj Zizek should be the only romance option in the game.

Faerunner · February 18, 2017

Never know. Aloth could be into men only lol.

Knowing my luck, that's exactly what's going to happen. :mellow: (Especially since Iselmyr is only into women.)

My Watcher has been hopelessly in love with him since practically day one, but it turns out he's only into men, or only elven women, or only women/elven women (bad news for my wild orlan watcher), or what have you.

I know the devs have stressed being faithful to the characters even if it disappoints players, and I'm all for that... but it wouldn't stop it from being disappointing. :unsure:

Edited February 18, 2017 by Faerunner

CENIC · February 18, 2017

I know the devs have stressed being faithful to the characters even if it disappoints players, and I'm all for that... but it wouldn't stop it from being disappointing.

I know how you feel, but for me, relationships or romance in a game that only exist to pander to the player or for wish fulfillment are unsatisfying.

I thought Dragon Age Inquisition's approach to companion romance was a huge improvement over Dragon Age 2 where all the love interests were conveniently playersexual. Allowing companions to have romantic and sexual preferences and gating players from experiencing every type of relationship with every companion makes them feel more like real people... for better or worse, depending on how the real world treats you I guess.

I'm nervous about getting my hopes up about a romance with Aloth myself. Better to stay cynical and wait and see.

HooAmEye · February 18, 2017

Never know. Aloth could be into men only lol.

Knowing my luck, that's exactly what's going to happen. (Especially since Iselmyr is only into women.)

My Watcher has been hopelessly in love with him since practically day one, but it turns out he's only into men, or only elven women, or only women/elven women (bad news for my wild orlan watcher), or what have you.

I know the devs have stressed being faithful to the characters even if it disappoints players, and I'm all for that... but it wouldn't stop it from being disappointing.

What I want from Aloth is a weird semipolyamorous relationship. C'mon romancing two people in the same body, I can't think of any fiction that has done that. Personally, that would be fascinating...

Nicze · February 18, 2017

Never know. Aloth could be into men only lol.

Knowing my luck, that's exactly what's going to happen. (Especially since Iselmyr is only into women.)

My Watcher has been hopelessly in love with him since practically day one, but it turns out he's only into men, or only elven women, or only women/elven women (bad news for my wild orlan watcher), or what have you.

I know the devs have stressed being faithful to the characters even if it disappoints players, and I'm all for that... but it wouldn't stop it from being disappointing.

What I want from Aloth is a weird semipolyamorous relationship. C'mon romancing two people in the same body, I can't think of any fiction that has done that. Personally, that would be fascinating...

Thank Eothas I told him to dominate Iselmyr.

Bonte · February 18, 2017

Never know. Aloth could be into men only lol.

Knowing my luck, that's exactly what's going to happen. (Especially since Iselmyr is only into women.)

My Watcher has been hopelessly in love with him since practically day one, but it turns out he's only into men, or only elven women, or only women/elven women (bad news for my wild orlan watcher), or what have you.

I know the devs have stressed being faithful to the characters even if it disappoints players, and I'm all for that... but it wouldn't stop it from being disappointing.

Aww my bad. What if your choice based on how you told him to deal with Iselmyr determines what kind of relationship he can have? For example, if Iselmyr and Aloth are still one, maybe he wouldn't want any kind of romantic relationship. But maybe an Aloth that doesn't have to deal with Iselmyr would be more open to a relationship with the Watcher.

Your wild orlan could find love in Serafen Hopefully, someone give my Death Godlike their time . His horns are really big though, so that wouldn't be very comfortable during the cuddling sessions. Plus, no getting lost in each other eyes.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Bonte

HooAmEye · February 18, 2017

Never know. Aloth could be into men only lol.

Knowing my luck, that's exactly what's going to happen. (Especially since Iselmyr is only into women.)

My Watcher has been hopelessly in love with him since practically day one, but it turns out he's only into men, or only elven women, or only women/elven women (bad news for my wild orlan watcher), or what have you.

I know the devs have stressed being faithful to the characters even if it disappoints players, and I'm all for that... but it wouldn't stop it from being disappointing.

What I want from Aloth is a weird semipolyamorous relationship. C'mon romancing two people in the same body, I can't think of any fiction that has done that. Personally, that would be fascinating...

Thank Eothas I told him to dominate Iselmyr.

kinky

evilcat · February 18, 2017

Maybe Aloth and Isemyr set soem shedule of who runs the body each day, so the other soul can chill. Aloth seeks bromance, and Isemyr lady love. They leave notes with pointers and letter of complains... that may be a plot of some movie, i forgot the name.

Edited February 18, 2017 by evilcat

HooAmEye · February 18, 2017

Maybe Aloth and Isemyr set soem shedule of who runs the body each day, so the other soul can chill. Aloth seeks bromance, and Isemyr lady love. They leave notes with pointers and letter of complains... that may be a plot of some movie, i forgot the name.

Hmm, sounds like you are either speaking of "Your Name", "The Prestige", or "Being John Malkovich"

evilcat · February 18, 2017

Maybe Aloth and Isemyr set soem shedule of who runs the body each day, so the other soul can chill. Aloth seeks bromance, and Isemyr lady love. They leave notes with pointers and letter of complains... that may be a plot of some movie, i forgot the name.

Hmm, sounds like you are either speaking of "Your Name", "The Prestige", or "Being John Malkovich"

"Your name" that was movie i thought about.

That is also an idea for quest. Maybe somewhere in Fulvano voyage. Travel back in time to change the future. Edgy enought.

Romance: In past reality we meet that perfect girl/boy, but we cant take them to watcher time, so village is safed, but they had lost beloved one. lol

Edited February 18, 2017 by evilcat

Osvir · February 18, 2017

Curiousity: Harry Potter-verse

Hermoine or Ginny?

In essence: It happens. Watcher should be treated as a protagonist, and not as a "Player choice". In terms of "romantic relationship" imo.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Osvir

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