Help Designing a Melee Cipher Build

[mosspit]

Well if you want to setup it that way, then of course weapon doesn't matter for survability since one can heal through everything. But Tidefall can be a good choice for surviability too if a char is built without the synergy on those passive healing effects. It depends on what you want.

Edited January 6, 2017 by mosspit

[Boeroer]

Yeah sure. I totally agree. I just wanted to mention the max selfheal approach again because I think it got lost with all those answers. It's a nice way to stay alive while skilling mainly for offense.

[MaxQuest]

There are other minor aspects I took advantage of eg, Tidefall's Wounding to trigger Itumaak's Merciless Companion. But those aspects are too specific to include as a legit reason to recommend Tidefall.

Taking minor advantages here and there is great! In games like these, small optimizations here and there, when combined can spiral and snowball out of control (more so in Tyranny through as it's less balanced; but even in PoE we have a large field for activity as it's mechanics are way more deep).

I actually remember Boeroer mentioning Tidefall + Merciless Companions synergy a few months ago, regarding giving it to barbarian, and letting the pet enjoy dealing increased damage to anyone in the area. Also it is used in his Riptide ranger build.

 

How do Might and Lashes fit into the damage calculation? I want to calculate how much damage Bittercut will do on a Cipher with Biting Whip, Spirit of Decay, Savage Attacks and a Corrosive Lash.

Just like you added in the edit part, it stacks additively with other damage modifiers:

dmgValues = [11, 16] * dmgCoefficient
dmgCoefficient (onHit) = (1 + mightBonus + weaponQualityBonus + soulWhipBonus + bittingWhipBonus + weaponTypeBonus + savageAttackBonus + damageTypeBonus)
dmgCoefficient (onCrit) = dmgCoefficient (onHit) + critBonus (0.5) + annihilationBonus (0.5) + mercilessBonus (0.3)

Where damageTypeBonus = 0.2 for Bittercut when Spirit of Decay is taken; or 0 otherwise

For a cipher companion with 20 might and superb Bittercut that would be:

dmgValues preNerf_ (onHit) = [13, 19] * (1 + 0.3 + 0.45 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2) = [13, 19] * 2.55 = [33.15, 48.45]
dmgValues postNerf (onHit) = [11, 16] * (1 + 0.3 + 0.45 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2) = [11, 16] * 2.75 = [30.25, 44] (a ~10% postNerf loss)

And the lash stacks multiplicatively. But it's a bit more complicated, due to the enemy DR:

dmgRolled = random(dmgValuesMin, dmgValuesMax)
finalDmg = weaponDmgPart + lashDmgPart

Where weaponDmgPart = max(dmgRolled - DR, dmgRolled * 0.2) // 20% will always go through DR

And lashDmgPart is calculated in the following manner: // it also can get completely cancelled by high DR, source tests

lashDmgPart (corrode, no spiritOfDecay) = max(lashBonus * dmgRolled - 0.25 * DR, 0) = 0.25 * max(dmgRolled - DR, 0)
lashDmgPart (corrode, with spiritOfDecay) = max((1 + spiritOfDecayBonus) * lashBonus * dmgRolled - 0.2 * DR, 0) = 0.3 * max(dmgRolled - DR, 0)

Also, tests have shown that:

- SpiritOfDecay still increases weaponDamage of Bittercut (v3.05)

- SpiritOfDecay still increases weaponDamage of Bittercut even if it is dealing slash damage due to enemie's high corrode DR

- Corrode lash get's additional benefit when applied to Bittercut (in comparisson to other sabres). Not only the lash is increased in the end by the talent modifier, but it also indeed does benefit from weapon's increased dmgCoefficient

 

---

Also, for reference, decided to compute dmgValues for a companion that would have 10 Might, instead of 20:

dmgValues preNerf_ (onHit) = [13, 19] * (1 + 0.45 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2) = [13, 19] * 2.25 = [29.25, 42.75] (a ~13% dps loss in cmp to 20 mig)
dmgValues postNerf (onHit) = [11, 16] * (1 + 0.45 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2) = [11, 16] * 2.45 = [26.95, 39.2] (a ~12% dps loss in cmp to 20 mig)

So if you are stacking lots of modifiers, 10->20 might will provide a ~12% auto-attacking dps increase vs 0 DR enemies. Although high might is still important if you will use a lot of damaging powers or attack high DR targets.

Edited January 7, 2017 by MaxQuest

[JerekKruger]

Thanks for the clarification Max. I always knew Lashes were good, partly because everyone always said they were good, but the fact they are multiplicative really explains why they are so good. I need to be less stingy with my hordes of enchanting materials in my next game.

 

Yeah sure. I totally agree. I just wanted to mention the max selfheal approach again because I think it got lost with all those answers. It's a nice way to stay alive while skilling mainly for offense.

 

Don't worry about that, I've had this thread open whilst scribbling on a (physical*) notepad to decide on this build so I'm not missing the earlier advice. In fact I'm particularly interested in Braven's suggestion of self targetting with Psychovampiric Shield before combat.

 

With Shod-in-Faith I'm tempted to put them on another, higher Might melee character (perhaps Zahua) and rely on the AoE overlapping my Cipher. That might be a little riskier though, since if my Cipher gets critted whilst Zahua doesn't then there's no proc happening.

 

Part of me is now tempted to also run a Berathian priest at the same time as my Cipher, but if I do it'll really have to be the main character, and at that point it'll be hard to tell if the Cipher's really viable or is just being carried by the overpoweredness of a Priest who isn't Durance. I think I will stick with just one player made character.

 

*I'm an old man. If this were the world of Logan's Run** I'd be dead.

**Book or Movie!

[JerekKruger]

@JereKruger:

Heh misunderstood when you said interesting. At this pioint, I don't want to oversell Tidefall for a Cipher beyond it being at least a feasible weapon option. Many other posters with more knowledge of the game made better posts.

 

Yeah, I realised afterwards that "interesting" could be interpreted as "I am not convinced", which wasn't the intended meaning.

 

At this point I must admit I am probably settled on Bittercut + shield (in my defence, I have literally never used Bittercut before*), which is part of the reason I want to), although I will probably mess around with a few other options to see how they play for me.

 

I will say that I won't be benefiting from Silver Tide. I rarely take Godlikes these days, but even when I do I never take Moon ones. This is mainly because I don't like the way they look, but partly a carryover from the early days of PoE where the solution to anything difficult seemed to be "use a Moon Godlike and it becomes easy". I am sure balance has been improved since then, but there's always a voice in the back of my head telling me taking a Moon Godlike is taking the easy path (silly, I know).

 

*It was fairly recently that I understood exactly why it's such a good weapon - and to be fair, the reasons aren't all obvious -  and before that I always avoided it, rather sillily, because of the penalty to Poison Defence.

[mosspit]

@MaxQuest

 

Nice comparison pre and post nerf! Particularly

- SpiritOfDecay still increases weaponDamage of Bittercut even if it is dealing slash damage due to enemie's high corrode DR

 

I always wondered if it was worthwhile to take up Spirit of Decay if it is purely for powering Bittercut(s), and I think it is a strong yes for me.

 

@JereKruger

 

I think Bittercut and Shield makes sense. Sword and Shield is admittedly a melee config I have not tried yet (although funny to say my melee wizard in the same playthrough has bittercut and supper plate on his secondary set).

 

And as for moon godlike, I only tried it once on a Monk. Then I gave the Monk Shods in Faith. Then it got so ridiculous by trivializing most encounters that I never used the same combination again.

Edited January 6, 2017 by mosspit

[peddroelm]

Where damageTypeBonus = 0.25 for Bittercut when Spirit of Decay is taken; or 0 otherwise

0.2 not 0.25  . The elemental perks provide 20% bonus .  3.04 test https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78239-abilities-various-other-damage-related-mechanics-revealed/page-6?do=findComment&comment=1859690 .

Edited January 6, 2017 by peddroelm

[JerekKruger]

Last question before I start my character: powers, what's good? In particular what's good early game and is Antipathetic Field worth taking for a melee Cipher?

 

For level one and two, the only powers I absolutely know I'll take are Whisper of Treason and Mental Binding.

[QuiteGoneJin]

Not to derail, but someone expand on this Might/int Berathian Tidefall priest, probably one of the most intriguing ideas I've seen on the boards in a while. 

 

How does having a PC Priest's buffed Holy Radiance (from disposition) affect things like Aggrandizing Radiance? Or does it only buff the heal and therefor you shouldn't nerf that etc

Edited January 6, 2017 by QuiteGoneJin

[mosspit]

For me, Mind Blast is a strong contender. Mainly because of the speed of the cast - If you see an opponent preparing a skill you don't like, use it to interrupt the skill as Mind Blast is a "fast" skill. Or eyestrike if you don't have any other source of blind.

 

I will take Antipathetic Field to synergize with Echoplasm Beam to take advantage of the 20% Beam dmg from AF.

 

Also Apprentice Sneak Attack. Makes that dmg values using Bittercut more impressive.

Edited January 6, 2017 by mosspit

[JerekKruger]

Not to derail, but someone expand on this Might/int Berathian Tidefall priest, probably one of the most intriguing ideas I've seen on the boards in a while. 

 

Well my idea was simply this: Berath is the god of death or, more precisely, the god in charge of the cycle that souls go through, hence it seemed natural that Vessels would be anathema to him. My build idea was a Berathian Priest who specialised in killing Vessels: take the talents that improve Holy Radiance (which already does pretty good damage against Vessels), take high Might and Intellect to further improve its damage and area of effect, and take the talent that improves damage against Vessels (Sanctifier I think). The Greatsword aspect simply came from the fact that the Berathian Priest's unique talent gives +10 to accuracy with Greatswords (and something else, I forget what), and Tidefall specifically since it's by far the best Greatsword in the game. That's as far as I got with the idea. In my head I had named him "Berath's Reaper", since I envisaged him as a Priest who made it his personal mission to reap those souls wrong imprisoned in vessels.

 

I can't speak for exactly what Boeroer had in mind. Perhaps we can poke him until he writes us a full class build for it 

[JerekKruger]

I will take Antipathetic Field to synergize with Echoplasm Beam to take advantage of the 20% Beam dmg from AF.

 

That's a point, I've never really understood what that 20% beam damage bit in AF means.

[QuiteGoneJin]

Last question before I start my character: powers, what's good? In particular what's good early game and is Antipathetic Field worth taking for a melee Cipher?

 

For level one and two, the only powers I absolutely know I'll take are Whisper of Treason and Mental Binding.

I find antipathetic field really annoying to use as you need to get your tanks hit by disengages to place them behind the target that the melee cipher is attacking. Ymmv, Eyestrike has always been awesome especially on potd. Daze AND blind stay's so useful all the way through the game imo. 

[QuiteGoneJin]

 

Not to derail, but someone expand on this Might/int Berathian Tidefall priest, probably one of the most intriguing ideas I've seen on the boards in a while. 

 

Well my idea was simply this: Berath is the god of death or, more precisely, the god in charge of the cycle that souls go through, hence it seemed natural that Vessels would be anathema to him. My build idea was a Berathian Priest who specialised in killing Vessels: take the talents that improve Holy Radiance (which already does pretty good damage against Vessels), take high Might and Intellect to further improve its damage and area of effect, and take the talent that improves damage against Vessels (Sanctifier I think). The Greatsword aspect simply came from the fact that the Berathian Priest's unique talent gives +10 to accuracy with Greatswords (and something else, I forget what), and Tidefall specifically since it's by far the best Greatsword in the game. That's as far as I got with the idea. In my head I had named him "Berath's Reaper", since I envisaged him as a Priest who made it his personal mission to reap those souls wrong imprisoned in vessels.

 

I can't speak for exactly what Boeroer had in mind. Perhaps we can poke him until he writes us a full class build for it 

 

I also liked the cleansing flame aspect. Wondering about radiance though (as I mentioned above) and if on potd having 21 might 17 int 10 all others (Maxed might Aumaua) means you'd be whiffing all game. 

[QuiteGoneJin]

For level two psychovampiric shield is amazing for melee, not just for the 25 deflect buff but the huge will and deflect debuff on the enemy is so good for ciphers. 

[JerekKruger]

I also liked the cleansing flame aspect. Wondering about radiance though (as I mentioned above) and if on potd having 21 might 17 int 10 all others (Maxed might Aumaua) means you'd be whiffing all game. 

 

Whiffing? Do you mean missing? If so, that's unlikely given that you are a priest and have access to the full suite of ridiculous Priestly Accuracy buffs.

[QuiteGoneJin]

 

I also liked the cleansing flame aspect. Wondering about radiance though (as I mentioned above) and if on potd having 21 might 17 int 10 all others (Maxed might Aumaua) means you'd be whiffing all game. 

 

Whiffing? Do you mean missing? If so, that's unlikely given that you are a priest and have access to the full suite of ridiculous Priestly Accuracy buffs.

 

True, I really need to test disposition buffs and how they interact with different talents that modify Holy Radiance.  Aggrandizing and/or inspiring radiance could become really fun if they get buffed also. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by QuiteGoneJin

[JerekKruger]

True, I really need to test disposition buffs and how they interact with different talents that modify Holy Radiance.  Aggrandizing and/or inspiring radiance could become really fun if they get buffed also. 

 

My (completely uneducated guess) would be that only the base damage of Holy Radiance increases with disposition.

 

By the way, I don't know whether you knew it already, but the negative to healing with Aggrandizing Radiance only applies to the Priest. All allies in the radius still get healed for full. I mention this because the wording always seemed ambiguous to me, and it makes Aggrandizing Radiance a lot more appealing.

[QuiteGoneJin]

Oooh, good to know. 

[Boeroer]

Only the damage gets buffed.

 

But with WF Soldier, the berath talent for great sword (which will give you the same ACC as a fighter) and Inspiring Radiance, buffed by Devotions now and then will give you so much ACC that you will not miss anything.

 

Aggrandizing Radiance is very nice in combination with Minor Avatar as I said before. Since I want to stack as much MIG as possible, +2 to all stats is not bad. Together with MinAv you'll have +10 to all stats. Or take Champion's Boon and you'll have +12 MIG. Together with max starting MIG, the story talents like Gift from the Machine, Maegfolk Skull (must have for a berathian priest imo) and later Abydon's Hammer you can have around 50 MIG while casting (including Radiance) and 4 less when attacking with Tidefall. TONS of spell damage and also great melee damage. Holy Radiance will destroy nearly all vessels in range and Envenomed Strike + wounding + Cleansing Flame with over 40 MIG will wreck any enemy who is not immune. Shining Beacon with ~50 MIG will deal with the rest...

 

I also took Vet. Recovery because with a LOT of MIG and healing mods like I suggested it's superpowerful. Combined with Consecrated Ground and Triumph of the Crusaders you can't die from low endurance.

 

But the early levels are tough. Low starting endurance and deflection will make you squishy. And your starting ACC is quite poor, too. I took Vet. Recovery as my first talent and then focused on raising ACC. After some levels it's great.

 

I wanted to write this as my next build but I don't have time for that at the moment since my family and I were moving from flat A to house B. You can't imagine how much stuff we accumulated during 4 years... over 50 cubic metres.

 

On topic: Bittercut and shield is a good setup. And Spirit of Decay also works with Antipathetic Field as far as I know. For me, Spirit of Decay + Bittercut is way better than Savage Attack, even if it's only for the weapon. Both cost one talent point, but while Spirit oD will give you +20 weapon damage AND +5% lash damage and has no downsides, Savage Attack only gives you +20% base damage and takes away 5 ACC. So for me there's no question that Spirit oD is worth it if your main weapon is Bittercut.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

You can't imagine how much stuff we accumulated during 4 years... over 50 cubic metres.

 

You... liquefied your belongings before transporting them   

 

I hope the move goes well anyway.

 

In about an hour or so I'll finally start this Cipher run. I'll keep this thread posted as it goes then make a new thread for the final build once I've beaten everything which can then go in the build list.

[QuiteGoneJin]

Only the damage gets buffed.

 

But with WF Soldier, the berath talent for great sword (which will give you the same ACC as a fighter) and Inspiring Radiance, buffed by Devotions now and then will give you so much ACC that you will not miss anything.

 

Aggrandizing Radiance is very nice in combination with Minor Avatar as I said before. Since I want to stack as much MIG as possible, +2 to all stats is not bad. Together with MinAv you'll have +10 to all stats. Or take Champion's Boon and you'll have +12 MIG. Together with max starting MIG, the story talents like Gift from the Machine, Maegfolk Skull (must have for a berathian priest imo) and later Abydon's Hammer you can have around 50 MIG while casting (including Radiance) and 4 less when attacking with Tidefall. TONS of spell damage and also great melee damage. Holy Radiance will destroy nearly all vessels in range and Envenomed Strike + wounding + Cleansing Flame with over 40 MIG will wreck any enemy who is not immune. Shining Beacon with ~50 MIG will deal with the rest...

 

I also took Vet. Recovery because with a LOT of MIG and healing mods like I suggested it's superpowerful. Combined with Consecrated Ground and Triumph of the Crusaders you can't die from low endurance.

 

But the early levels are tough. Low starting endurance and deflection will make you squishy. And your starting ACC is quite poor, too. I took Vet. Recovery as my first talent and then focused on raising ACC. After some levels it's great.

 

I wanted to write this as my next build but I don't have time for that at the moment since my family and I were moving from flat A to house B. You can't imagine how much stuff we accumulated during 4 years... over 50 cubic metres.

 

On topic: Bittercut and shield is a good setup. And Spirit of Decay also works with Antipathetic Field as far as I know. For me, Spirit of Decay + Bittercut is way better than Savage Attack, even if it's only for the weapon. Both cost one talent point, but while Spirit oD will give you +20 weapon damage AND +5% lash damage and has no downsides, Savage Attack only gives you +20% base damage and takes away 5 ACC. So for me there's no question that Spirit oD is worth it if your main weapon is Bittercut.

GL with the move, have to do so myself later this month, not looking foward to it. 

 

Hope the Cipher build is fun!

 

On "The Pallid Blade" I'd probably take the Pallid Hand 1st for the acc. Then get that fine greatsword in the SW of Magran's fork asap.

 

So you can combine The Radiance Talent's eh, there's 4 talents right there between those three and Pallid hand. Then Knight Weapon focus, veterans recovery, envenom strike.....

[JerekKruger]

On "The Pallid Blade" I'd probably take the Pallid Hand 1st for the acc. Then get that fine greatsword in the SW of Magran's fork asap.

 

I don't think the Fine Greatsword at Magran's Fork is guaranteed to be a Greatsword. I am fairly certain it's a "random" loot cache and will generate a "random" Fine weapon (possibly always a melee weapon). You can get Raedric's Greatsword fairly early on, which is a good starting point for a Greatsword wielder, then if you get lucky (or cheese the random loot tables) with Gloves of Manipulation you get get Tidefall very early on, and if not you can go with The Hours of St. Rumbalt instead.

 

That's what I love about Greatswords: they are available early and you can get the top tier ones quickly.

 

So you can combine The Radiance Talent's eh, there's 4 talents right there between those three and Pallid hand. Then Knight Weapon focus, veterans recovery, envenom strike.....

 

I wouldn't recommend bothering with Brilliant Radiance. Holy Radiance, when fully upgraded, does something like 150 Burn damage over 3s (plus any other modifiers like Might etc.). Brilliant Radiance adds 20 to that, so about 13.5% extra. Remember that Holy Radiance is once per encounter, so you're spending an entire Talent point on a 13.5% damage increase on a once per encounter power. I don't think that's worth it (if Boeroer disagrees with me then follow his advice though since, you know, he's Boeroer).

Edited January 7, 2017 by JerekKruger

[QuiteGoneJin]

Holy Radiance only burns Vessels, doesn't Brilliant Radiance make the ability burn all enemies and do more to vessels?

 

• Brilliant Radiance – Enemies take Burn damage from the priest's Holy Radiance (vessels take increased Burn damage)

Edit: I think I am correct however the damage to non vessels is listed as really low, like 11-16 ish in the level up screen, not sure if that screen takes might in consideration or not but you are right that hardly  seems worth a talent even if it does damage everyone. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by QuiteGoneJin

[JerekKruger]

Holy Radiance only burns Vessels, doesn't brilliant radiance make the ability burn all enemies and do more to vessels?

 

Brilliant Radiance will make Holy Radiance do a 20 damage (modified by Might etc.) DoT to non-vessels, which is pretty bad. I am fairly certain the main damage of Holy Radiance remains vessel-only.