Pleading for Rogue buff once more

[JerekKruger]

It's not as simple as the faster swing speed of a one-hander beating out the +50% damage from annihilation. To actually determine which does more damage per second you need to know miss/graze/hit/crit rate, overall percentage damage bonus ignoring annihilation and enemy DR. It's not at all hard to give examples of high DR enemies where fast one-handers will do a lot less DPS than even a non-annihilating slow one-hander, and ultimately a higher proportion of the tougher enemies in the game will have high DR.

 

For example suppose a character has +200% damage. Against the Adra Dragon's 28DR the average crit with a fast one-hander will do 11*3.5 - 28 = 10.5 damage, so after taking into account the fact that fast one-handers attack 50% faster than slow one-handers (with zero recovery) that's 15.75 damage per second assuming all crits. The same character wielding a slow one-hander will do an average crit of 19.25 damage, which is higher than the fast-one hander even when its faster attack speed is taken into account. This difference grows larger with hits and grazes, and obviously annihilation will also increase it.

Edited January 14, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Boeroer]

That's the main reason why Drawn in Spring is one of the top DPS weapons, I think the best when you clone it: it's very fast, has higher ACC than most other weapons AND works great against high DR targets because of wounding.

 

The rest of the fast weapons (flails for example) are quite weak when it comes to damage - because a lot of foes have fairly high DR values which eat away too much of the somewhat whimpy damage. Stilettos are a bit better because of 3 DR bypass - but that's a value that is fix and doesn't profit from dmg mods, crits etc. Higher base damage is better against DR most of the time.

 

By the way: one handed weapons with average speed have the same animation and recovery time as two handers. Only difference is that you can dual wield them and get +50% speed. Don't ask me why the one is called average and the other slow.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

I know I've asked this recently, but I've forgotten the answer, does Wounding from Drawn in Spring stack? If so then dual Drawn in Spring is just ridiculous.

[MaxQuest]

^ Wounding DoT does stack completely. It also does benefit from might twice. And through it's a DoT smaller int is better.

Edited January 14, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

It's one of the few DoT effects where the overall damage is not altered by INT. INT only determines how long it takes to apply the damage. So, as MaxQuest said: low INT is somewhat better than high. Other DoTs like this that come to my mind are (Runner's) Wounding Shot and Enduring Flames.

[the streaker]

^ Wounding DoT does stack completely. It also does benefit from might twice. And through it's a DoT smaller int is better.

 

Interesting! what do you mean by benefit twice from might? Also, would it be 25% of the full attack (with lash included) and is it vs. 25% of the target's DR?

 

This goddamn game is so needlessly complicated..

Edited January 15, 2017 by the streaker

[JerekKruger]

Wounding is raw damage, so it ignores DR. 

[Boeroer]

It profits twice from MIG because MIG influences the weapon damage (wounding damage, like lashes, will get calculated based on your damage roll) AND MIG also buffs the wounding "lash" itself because it's a DoT effect. This is unique. Elemental lashes and wounding don't influence each other. Elemental lashes have to overcome 1/4 DR, wounding is raw damage. No DR involved as Jerek said

[Dr <3]

In fact with drawn in spring vs bosses you do more dmg with the wounding than with the weapon itself, since dr is ignored by wounding while he eats up all' the slash DMG you are doing.

[Boeroer]

If you add Deep Wounds with high MIG it's a nice effect. The Mad Hornet build I did in my early days was using as many raw DoTs as possible with Persistence which also has wounding.

[Elric Galad]

So it's 25% damages BEFORE DR as raw damages ? Plus a normal MIG bonus applied to this 25% ?

 

And INT and duration are irrelevant for the total damages ? (except that low INT implies faster damages)

 

It should be close to a ×1.5 multiplicator, then. And much more reliable against high DR as pointed.

 

That makes Persistance, Tidefall and drawn in spring top DPS weapons for their style. Eventually, it's a contest between tidefall and drawn in spring for the title of best DPS melee weapons.

 

Side question : does boar wounding work the same ?

[JerekKruger]

So the formula for the total Wounding damage is:

 

DamageRoll*DamageModifier*1.25*MightModifier?

 

That makes Persistance, Tidefall and drawn in spring top DPS weapons for their style. Eventually, it's a contest between tidefall and drawn in spring for the title of best DPS melee weapons.

 

A very quick, and probably flawed, calculation suggests that for auto-attacks, assuming zero reduction for both, Tidefall comes out slightly ahead of Drawn in Spring even when we take into account the faster attack speed of using a fast one-handed weapon. The differences is fairly small though.

 

Depending on how full attacks work with dual Drawn in Springs, a full attack heavy class might be better served by dual wielding Hellwaxed Drawn in Springs though.

 

Side question : does boar wounding work the same ?

 

 

Yup. It's why the Boar is capable of out damaging the cat in some fights.

[Elric Galad]

It opens interesting possibilities for carrion lord boar druid specialized in (insect) DoT and regeneration.

 

"You decay, I regenerate"

[Dr <3]

About best DPS weapon for every class they are indeed among the best, but consider that the "best weapon" itself depends also from the build of your char and the party and the from the dr of enemies, so there is not a clear winner.

Usually the most powerful enchantmens are considered wounding > speed > lash.

The matter is complicated also by the existence of weapon with special effect on crit: for example the permastun that you can reach with Godansthunyr for me give more advantages than a bit of pure DMG more.

 

That said tusk from boar bruid works the same, and this is the reason for wich he can compare to cat druid DPS-wise. ( But tusks only have 20% wounding instead of the 25% of weapons).

 

Another consideration to make is that actually for the druid wounding is LESS important that for other charachters, since when shifted the BASE DAMAGE is always very high, so it is less influented by enemies DR.

[Boeroer]

As far as I know the damage of wounding is based on the weapon damage minus DR (?) while elemental lashes are based on the weapon damage before DR. But don't quote me on that.

 

When you reach 0 recovery Tidefall is better in terms of DPS. But with Drawn in Spring it's way easier to reach 0 recovery - even with a shield.

 

Persistence, Drawn in Spring and Tidefall are indeed the top dps weapons for their style (two handed, one handed, bows). Maybe Bittercut+Spirit of Decay is still competing with Drawn in Spring even after the sabre nerf.

Blade otEP can also be better if you have trouble reaching 0 recovery.

 

Generally speaking wounding is the best enchantment for DPS. And the side effect that it triggers Predator's Sense is also great. But as others said damage isn't necessarily the most important thing. CC and disables generally are more important in my opinion than pure damage if you can process then reliably. It all comes down to your chars, yourparty comp. and how you play.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

The matter is complicated also by the existence of weapon with special effect on crit: for example the permastun that you can reach with Godansthunyr for me give more advantages than a bit of pure DMG more.

 

Indeed, for a Barbarian you might be much better served using stunning or proning weapons, and since Wounding doesn't generate Focus, for a Cipher there are better options.

[JerekKruger]

As far as I know the damage of wounding is based on the weapon damage minus DR (?) while elemental lashes are based on the weapon damage before DR. But don't quote me on that.

 

Oh, I didn't expect that to be the case. If it is then Tidefall will definitely draw ahead.

[Boeroer]

As I said: I'm not sure about that.

 

Tidefall is great on a barb as well because of the carnage-draining. Drawn in Spring is kinda meh for a barb in my opinion. Not that it's weak - it just doesn't fit. Only my personal preference.

[JerekKruger]

That's actually my problem with Drawn in Spring generally. There are relatively few classes that I don't think look silly using a dagger as their main weapon, and at least one of those classes (the Rogue) I don't enjoy.

[Boeroer]

Yes. And its color is also a difficult thing. It looks kinda stupid with the most outfits. Tidefall just looks like a badass sword. This glowing dagger looks too fancy on most chars for my taste.

[Dr <3]

I think it's the opposite: wounding consider DMG you do before dr, lashes After dr. I remember that against a dragon with a rogue i always did MIN dmg with the dagger but the wounding dmg were good. Should be Easy o test anyway.

[MaxQuest]

As far as I know the damage of wounding is based on the weapon damage minus DR (?) while elemental lashes are based on the weapon damage before DR. But don't quote me on that.

I think it's the opposite: wounding consider DMG you do before dr, lashes After dr. I remember that against a dragon with a rogue i always did MIN dmg with the dagger but the wounding dmg were good. Should be Easy o test anyway.

Wounding and regular lashes both are calculated based on damage rolled before DR)

 

 

 

Presudo-code:

dmgRolled = random(dmgValuesMin, dmgValuesMax)
finalDmg = weaponDmgPart + lashDmgPart + woundingDmgPart

weaponDmgPart = max(dmgRolled - DR1, dmgRolled * 0.2) 
lashDmgPart = max(lashPercentage * dmgRolled - 0.25 * DR2, 0) = 0.25 * max(dmgRolled - DR2, 0)
woundingDmgPart = (woundingPercentage * dmgRolled) * (1 + mightBonus) = 0.25 * dmgRolled  * (1 + mightBonus) // it is affected by might, perhaps because it is a DoT

 

Edited January 15, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Dr <3]

We have a winner!

[Boeroer]

Ah great. Explains why it's so good against high DR targets.

[Elric Galad]

I was considering to create a poll about rogue abilities buff in general discussions.

 

I'm going to limit the ideas to "not too complicated to implement ideas". Maybe this won't be the ideal solutions, but getting something like stackable deep wound would still be nice (even for people who think rogue is okay).

 

I'll add a secondary poll about "which direction rogue should evolve ?". This would be for more complex changes. I don't expect these to be implemented for PoE1, but I think it would be nice to send a feedback to the devs for PoE2. Rogue was pointed least liked class in a recent poll, so I think it is a good idea to express about what could make them better.

 

Feel free to make some suggestions. I'll try to add them in one of these categories ^^

Edited January 15, 2017 by Elric Galad