Pleading for Rogue buff once more

[Elric Galad]

This thread became in a discussion about why Rogue are still UP
( https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90435-player-returning-from-launch-wants-basic-info/ ),

Here is a good summary of the problem from another poster :
 

[...] back when the game came out, people did the calcs (spreadsheets, etc), comparing rogue to ranger and other classes, and single-target DPS nothing beat a backstabbing melee rogue. You just needed to expend a lot of time and effort maneuvering him into the right position. I think it's the last part of your post - Druids and other classes must have gotten big boosts (druids used to be mid-tier) while rogues stayed where they were. And if they boosted rangers to do as much damage from range as rogues can do from melee, that pretty much puts rogue out of a job...

So I decided to create a new thread about possible rogue changes.
This also because my previous one ( https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85541-the-rogue-and-barbarian-polishing-thread/ ) seems to have ended pretty successfully when patch 3.03 was released


I suppose it would be a bit late for this kind whining if PoE2 wasn't under development. I guess these changes could be seen as an investment
And PoE is still patched from times to times, so... why not ?


So my suggestions are below.
The idea is that low level abilities are quite OK after patch 3.03. I'm still pleading for a few tweaks, but nothing big.
The major changes are for high level ones : Shadow Step and Feign Death.

-----

General Changes :


Distracted should be listed as Sneak Attack Triggering conditons.

Health : Buffed to Endurance x 5.
Rogue is supposed to be a martial class. All martial classes have at least x5 health multiplicator. Low Deflection and Endurance is enough hindering for Rogues in my opinion.
Currently, rogue is too often the cause of resting, which I find annoying. It would also be an indirect convenience buff for Riposte rogues... 

 

EDIT: Invibility shall not immediately stop a fight.

-----

Abilities Changes :


Crippling Strike : No change

Blinding Strike : No change

Reckless Assault : No change

Escape : No change

Dirty Fighting : good ability but lowish numbers
Especially compared to One Handed Style recent change (abilities are supposed to be better than talents). Even if One Handed Style is conditionnal.
15% Hit to Crit would be good.
(10% Hit to Crit for vicious fighting is enough in my opinion)

Riposte : With the current system, it's better to be grazed than missed.
Riposte occurence has been described to be a bit too low by the ones who tested it since 3.03, so I think 30% of Riposte for Graze AND Miss would be OK.

Finishing Blow : EDIT : The main problem for Finshing Blow for me is that it works the best when the target is almost dead, which it makes it annoying to use.

However, multiplicative damages buff is rare enough to be noticeable.

I think something like 1x per encounter 2x damages against target under 50% Endurance (x3 with Devastating blows) would be a very nice revamp. 

(and unconditional Full Attack, +5 Acc and +50% damages as it is now)

 

Deep Wounds : Deep Wounds should stack with themseves. Currently, its damages are very low, escpecially at high levels.

Adept Evasion : No change

Coordinated Positioning : No change

Persistent Distraction : No change (refer to distracted changes)

Withering Strike & Fearsome Strike : There have been changes in patch 3.03. That's good but I still find them too weak for their level. My suggestion is simply to make them available at level 7.
(This is also to make them consistent with Sap change below).

Deathblow : No change

Smoke Cloud : EDIT Add 3s of non-cancellable invisibility on Rogue.

(also refer to distracted changes)

Sap : Okayish, but still too high level compared to its effect. My suggestion is simply to make it available at level 9.

Shadow Step : Here comes the great deal. Rogue lack great High level abilities. Let's change this !
EDIT: So, Shadow Step should give non cancellable invisibility for the time it is active instead of +20% damages.  Maximum Duration reduced to 6s.

Reminder : Backstab bonus damages are applied during invisibility.

So it's a big change. Other classes also get some incredibly powerful stuff at high level (Immolation and Twin Arrows noticeably), so I can't see any reason why Rogue wouldn't get something juicy. And Rogue should be the specialist for Spike Single Target DPS anyway.

 

Feign Death : The ultimate Rogue ability, yeah. 10s of auto-incapacitation for an offensive class is not good.
Make the Prone Duration Cancellable like Shadow Step has been suggested several time on this forum, and I think it's the best way to improve it too. (Make it fast cast instead of instant cast to avoid abuses). It would also be more reallistic this way.
Reminder : Backstab bonus damages are applied during invisibility. This Invisibility is not cancelled by attacking.

-----

 

Talents :

 

EDIT: Shadowing Beyond : Change to 1x per encounter

 

No changes to other talents.

That's all. Don't hesitate to make remarks or to suggest additional changes.
The point is : the more "reasonnable" is the suggested change, the more likely it is to actually happen.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

I would say alter Shadow Step and Smoke Cloud in a way that you can re-enter stealth or become invisible for a rel. short time. Then you won't need to buff the damage because backstabbing would be possible again.

 

 

Make Shadowing Beyond per encounter or give it more uses per rest than mere 2.

 

Give small, concealable weapons like daggers and stilettos +200% bonus damage when backstabbing. Atm backstabbing works best with hard hitting, slow weapons because the number of attacks is so limited.

 

I have to admit this will only buff Backstabbing.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Boeroer

[peddroelm]

I think shadow step currently provides 0% damage (the same +20% damage modal used by reckless and savage attack. )

[Phenomenum]

I would say alter Shadow Step and Smoke Cloud in a way that you can re-enter stealth or become invisible for a rel. short time. Then you won't need to buff the damage because backstabbing wou

Make Shadowing Beyond per encounter or give it more uses per rest than mere 2.

 

Give small, concealable weapons like daggers and stilettos +200% bonus damage when backstabbing. Atm backstabbing works best with hard hitting, slow weapons because the number of attacks is so limited.

 

I can not but agree with this. Some abilities for daggers & stilettos would be very useful. Just reminding Skyrim, where sneak attack with daggers give x15 damage bonus - it make sense. At the moment, small weapon is totally useless.

[Dr <3]

My opinions and relative "strenght"

 

+++ Rogue endurance 5x instead of 4x

+++ Make Deep wounds stackable

++ a little buff to dirty fighting ( like take him to 15% from 10%) like suggested.

Maybe add some passive bonus dmg to dagger, stiletto, club

++ Buff rispose like OP suggested

++ Shadowing beyond per encounter

++ Modify shadowing beyond : short the duration ( like 6-7 sec) but make attacks not break invisibility OR modify smoke bomb in the same fashion: gives you invisibility for a little time not breaked by attacks.

++ Modify Shadow step and feign death like suggested by OP

+ Make Sap a full attack

+ Backstab should work only with some kind of weapons ( stiletto/ daggers/ clubs) or at least NOT work with 2handers ( there is already sneak attack for that)

+ Finishing blow per encounter

 

Imho the rogue should be able to do single target DMG at least comparable with a shapeshift druid ( but for a little time window), and have some kind of survivability given by invisibility effects and adapt evesion. Modify some of his ability in a way that they gives you an invisibility not breaked by attacks will do the trick.

[Phenomenum]

About Hit-to-crit conversion:
Dirty Fighting + SA = 20%
Durgan Steel = 15%
Preist's Dire blessing = 20% (or Potion of Mersiless Gaze = 15%)

So we have 50-55% Hit-to-Crit rate (or 65-70% with one one-handed weapon). Considering very high Rogue accuracy (with Reckless Assault), which produce more crits by default, i think it's good enough for Rogue.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Phenomenum

[mosspit]

I have always liked idea of a backstabbing rogue, but the way PoE implemented stealth is just a little too clunky for consistent use. I like Boeroer's direction of making stealth more accessible.

 

For me, I also really like the idea of smoke cloud but the current implementation is really mediocre or even bad. If I may toy with the idea of revamping it I would suggest:

 

- persistent cloud that last at least 20secs

- distracts any enemies in it for the duration but make the affliction duration short. Something like how chillfog does it

- when rogue is in the cloud, he/she becomes invisible automatically

- every time the rogue breaks invisibility to backstab, the rogue needs to stay in the cloud for 2secs before it can become invisible again

- range of the cloud needs to be decent, something like 4m

- make it available at level 11

- per encounter

 

The rogue really needs a really strong skill or some synergy in order to push it to the top of the single target dpser category again. It is after all what the class is meant to be good at anyways.

Edited December 28, 2016 by mosspit

[Kaylon]

For me, the most annoying thing for rogues is the fact that all abilities giving invisibility end the combat when you solo. There should be always a 20-30s timer before the combat stops if the enemies can't continue to fight.

[Elric Galad]

First conclusion is that most people agrees that improving Rogue's "Spike Single Target DPS" should be the way to go.

Most suggestions are related to backstab.

 

-----

 

Backstab indeed needs a big rework.

I honnestly don't think we will get it for PoE 1, but maybe for next episode.

Due to how important Base damages are, I think a damage Multiplicator would be better.

Something like :

- x4 for Small Weapons

- x3 for Medium Weapons

- x2 for Two Handed

Check the numbers from base damage, with these factors Small Weapons > Medium Weapons > Two Handed.

 

For ranged wepons, IMHO, it shouldn't work at all, but I would happily see another talent called Ambush Shot applying something like +150% damages factor on ranged weapon shot made from stealth whatever the distance is. Not being multiplicative is what would balance this compared to Backstab. Even if ranger should stay the #1 ranged constant attacker, a specialty for sniping would certainly suit the Rogue.

Note that this unique factor favors Big Guns over bows, but for me it seems pretty logical for a sniping shot.

 

Finally, Stealth shall scale better with skill level.

Currently, whatever your level is, it seems impossible to backstab some high level ennemies, while even with low stealth, your funky barbarian will consistently have a good positionning.

You should be able to backstab a dragon with something like Stealth 12.

I suspect the difficulty is checked with something like (Stealth / ennemy level), which makes high level level ennemies impossible to trick.

I would even argue that hide in plain sight should be possible, with increased difficulty.

Stealth is currently a very convenient skills when you get a couple of points for all your party, but there is no true reward for high levels. It is annoying for the rogue, but not only.

 

-----

 

My problem with this is that I don't think we will see it for PoE 1.

 

So for the following reactions to your replies below, I will not take this change into account.

 

Currently, non-cancellable invisibility for a duration gives similar results (with probably a lot of factors, not to mention quickswith build, etc...) for fast attacking or slow weapons, so emphasizing "not cancellable invisibility" abilities should mostly hide the "dagger problem".

 

 

So my replies :

 

"So we have 50-55% Hit-to-Crit rate (or 65-70% with one one-handed weapon). Considering very high Rogue accuracy (with Reckless Assault), which produce more crits by default, i think it's good enough for Rogue."

=> My problem with this is that most of this rate is not specific to rogues. Any class can get most of this bonus.

Furthermore, my suggested change was not because I think rogue does not have enough crit, but because I find Dirty Fighting a bit weak. 20% Hit to Crit for 1 ability and 1 talent is not that great...

 

 

"For me, the most annoying thing for rogues is the fact that all abilities giving invisibility end the combat when you solo. There should be always a 20-30s timer before the combat stops if the enemies can't continue to fight."

=> Totally legit comment. I'm adding it to my general changes list ^^

 

 

"Finishing blow per encounter"

 

=> Yeah, maybe.

 

Making it 2x per encounter will make it too powerful in my opinion.

Making it 1x per encounter won't really buff the rogue.

The main problem for Finshing Blow for me is that it works the best when the target is almost dead, which it makes it annoying to use.

However, multiplicative damages buff is rare enough to be noticeable.

I think something like 1x per encounter 2x damages against target under 50% Endurance (x3 with Talent) would be a very nice revamp.

(and unconditional Full Attack, +5 Acc and +50% damages as it is now)

 

"I think shadow step currently provides 0% damage (the same +20% damage modal used by reckless and savage attack. )"

=> Good point. Given that Reckless Assault don't stack with Devotion for the Faithful Acc bonus either, it's a bit too much non-stacking issue.

I'm going to edit my Shadowstep Proposal the following way :

- No more Damage bonus.

- Not cancellable invisibility instead (so it's really a Shadow Step)

- Maximum Duration reduced to 6s for balancing purpose.

 

Smoke Cloud change suggested by Mosspit :

Seems quite a big change for me. Not likely to happen and maybe a bit complicated for my taste.

However, an additional 3s non-cancellable invisibility would be nice. I'll add that to my change suggestion list.

 

Shadowing beyond :

I don't know what could be done for this one.

Making it 2x per encounter will make it too powerful in my opinion.

Making it 1x per encounter won't really buff the rogue.

It also slide backstab in favor of big weapons

So probably shifting it to 1x encounter with 6s not cancellable invisibility would be a good compromise.

EDIT: Thinking twice, this one is over the top. Cumulating with suggested change for Feign Death, Shadow Step Smoking Cloud and Shadowing beyond, it results in 21s (+%5 per INT) invisibility + Backstab per encounter. it is a bit to much.

So simply making it 1x per encounter is enough in my opinion.

 

 

Shadowing Step, Smoking Cloud and Feign Death not cancellable invisibility should be enough to make the Rogue Great

Side note : Not cancellable invisbility should be buffed by INT anyway. Their low duration can be worked around with the right build. High INT Rogue feels nice Lore-Wise, and would also benefit froma deep wound buff.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Elric Galad

[the streaker]

Has anyone done some calculation comparisons of the damage a rogue can do compared to ranger (or whatever is the highest single-target DPS class now)? You really should assume you're doing constant sneak attacks, because there are countless spells and cipher powers that provide the flanked state.

 

I have a spreadsheet from early 2015 that shows a melee rogue wielding Estoc (+weapon focus, twohanded style), using savage attack/vicious fighting/reckless assault/dirty fighting/minor threat, doing approximately double the DPS of an arquebus ranger, ignoring driving flight damage to a secondary target.

 

Don't know if any of that is invalid with the latest game version, or if there exists a better ranger build with the new twinned arrows and a warbow, but that's one hell of a deficit to overcome in order to call rogue the worst class!

[peddroelm]

...for one think reckless assault and savage attack suppress the 20% damage(already mentioned in the thread). I started working on a POE DPS comparator app (I think I have the  damage and attack speed math reasonably well figured out but kind of lost steam along the way ... almost 0 previous experience with C# programming really slows things down ). Might still happen someday ..

[Dr <3]

Has anyone done some calculation comparisons of the damage a rogue can do compared to ranger (or whatever is the highest single-target DPS class now)? You really should assume you're doing constant sneak attacks, because there are countless spells and cipher powers that provide the flanked state.

 

I have a spreadsheet from early 2015 that shows a melee rogue wielding Estoc (+weapon focus, twohanded style), using savage attack/vicious fighting/reckless assault/dirty fighting/minor threat, doing approximately double the DPS of an arquebus ranger, ignoring driving flight damage to a secondary target.

 

Don't know if any of that is invalid with the latest game version, or if there exists a better ranger build with the new twinned arrows and a warbow, but that's one hell of a deficit to overcome in order to call rogue the worst class!

May be true, but you forgot some major things:

- arquebus ranger is the worst DPS ranged ranger, since the arrival of twin arrows

- driving flight should be included, or at least you should be aware that ranger do good dmg also to some secondarly target, rogue not

- the pet DMG is not considered, and that is quite huge at the moment ( i'd say about 2/3 of the ranger DMG)

 

 

The best one target Dps class at the moment is the shapeshift druid, wich can reach abut 200-230 DMG on hit with 0 recovery ( + a wounding lash if you are a boar). Nothing else come even close.

 

Compared to both the rogue come out ad a loser, since he

- do less dmg

- Have less survivability compared to ranger (have to go melee)

- if compared to druid doesn't have all the spells

 

About aoe DPS the game is between wiz, druid, Priest , Chanter, barbarian. Barbarian can reach the max " Spike " of DMG with heart of fury, Chanter potentially the most aoe DMG in long term with minimal effort, casters depends on the build.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Dr <3

[Elric Galad]

I remember trying to compare Saber Rogue and Twinned Arrow Warbow Ranger. I can't find the details, but my assmption and conclusions were the following :

 

Assumptions :

- Constant Deathblows

- Constant Apprentice Sneak Attack and Predator's Sense bonus 

- Pet and Ranger attacking same target

- Wolf pet

- Most passive increasing pet or ranger 

- per encounter abilities not considered

 

Conclusions 

- Wolf pet does about as much physical damages per hit as a Rogue, but there are almost no way to decrease its recovery time (No Durgan pet) and it has no lash nor big dexterity bonus. Eventually, that leads to pet doing something like 20-30% of Rogue DPS.

- As a rule of thumb, ranged weapons do approximately 60-66% damages of melee ones. I came to this conclusion by comparing Warbow and 2 handed weapon attack delay. 

- Stalker Link + Twinned Arrows basically DOUBLE ranger's DPS. Endgame, when both Ranger and Rogue have tons of weapon enchant, might and various +X% damage increase, this is what matters the most. Basically, that tends to compensate for the various Rogue +X% damage increase.
- Eventually, Rogue ended a  head above Ranger. It seemed to me that was a little more condition for them to deliver their optimal damages.

- Rogue DPS were more resilient against high DR. Of course, Ranger could switch to firearms, but loosing Twinned Arrows will basically kill the build's DPS.

 

And as said before, this does not take into account a lot of utilities that Ranger brings, such as pet tanking, Driving Flight, or the awesome Stunning Shots. 

 

I should do the maths again, especially after Saber nerf...

[Boeroer]

No offense, but which expert did that spreadsheet? Nerd Commando?

 

Comparing a rogue will all goodies to an arquebus ranger without driving flight and animal companion is like comparing a fully equipped Porsche to a Ferrari without motor and tires... kind of.

 

Even before any patch a ranger would have done more dps with - let's say Persistence - than with any arquebus. Even the nicest looking spreadsheets doesn't tell the truth when one forgets to put in the right things. . Besides that, even the Porsche lacked a turbocharger: the rogue's outfit and skillset are not the best for highest overall dps in that example...

 

Arquebuses do great burst damage and are good for alpha strikes and for taking out squishy target with one shot - but they are not good dps weapons. And I mean not only on a spreadsheet which are highly theoretical and never show you the real performance in the game anyways, but also in regard to the experience of a lot of people after countless playthroughs. There's a reason why there are few gun builds around. Those which are are beased on some very special item enchantments or spell/ability/item combiations.

Not only is the dps of a gun ranger lower than that of a bow ranger (even without Twinned Arrows) in a real playthrough, but also the whole encounter design works against guns: You have to time your shots so that you don't waste them. You don't want to overkill stuff. You don't want to miss with your precious shot so you wait for ACC buffs or afflictions on the enemy. You don't want to wait too long because the encounters are quite short most of the time... All that timing leads to even more seconds where you can't fire, recover or reload and so on, dropping your dps further. This can't be covered by a spreadsheet.

The worst part about guns and arbalests/crossbows is that your reload animation starts all over again when you have to move. And there's no talent against that. Sure, you can switch, and it's a good way to increase your dps, but it's also a lot of micro and you have to invest two talents and feel forced to use Island Aumua to make it worthwhile. And even then you won't reach a good bow's dps.

Nowadays rangers may have Powder Burns which boosts gun dps a bit. But guns are still the worst decision that you can make for a dps ranger. It damages your friends as well, it blinds you... it's just not good.

I doubt that that spreadsheet from 2015 was done with proper knowledge and/or evenhandedness. Some people loved rogues and did everything to prove they are or were the best. No idea why. I would really like them to be better.

 

And causing afllictions is of course quite easy. But if you can cause several afflictions in an AoE with a wizard, it's way easier and more comfirtable to disable them even more with AoE effects or kill them all quickly with AoE damage until they are dead than to run to each of them while those afflictions last and to kill them one by one. This can be effective against certain enemies like enemy casters and ranged enemies - but usually a rogue is not very good at this because he lacks the survivability to survive when he runs behin enemy lines. A fighter or monk are much better choices in my opinion. If you could restealth in an encounter or vanish more than twice per rest, allowing to retreat and to deliver more bckstabs, it woul make the rogue THE perfect assassin of those backline squishies. At the moment you'd either gimp your precious offense in order to make him sturdy enough to operate behind the enemy lines or you would fall flat on your face if a caster would lauch a necrotic lance at you.

 

But even IF the rogue used to be the best single target damage dealer back then (which I still doubt because I played PoE from the beginning and always felt that the rogue was pretty lame - but in the beginning rangers felt the same, too ) - nowadays he isn't top or even mediocre at all. No wait - he's really good at avoiding encounters - which can be pretty useful if you play solo. But in a party, that's not very useful.

 

We had the same discussion with the ranger, the paladin, the fighter and the barb. Each of them lacked something during the last few years while the game was out and all of them got patched. All of them got buffed in some way and now I seldomly hear complaints about them. Sometimes this was achieved with one or two simple changes. The paladin got +20 ACC for FoD and Sacred Immolation. The barb's main improvement was HoF 1/encounter (which made him the mundane class with the highest dps output). Even fighters got really nice additions like Charge - which is the main reason I like fighters now. Now they all seem to be in balance.

 

Only the rogue falls behind. You can use him in weird and also funny ways to lift him up (make an AoE caster out of him), but his designated role(s) is another and he sucks at that - and that's sad. I would like him to be better. 

[Boeroer]

I remember trying to compare Saber Rogue and Twinned Arrow Warbow Ranger. I can't find the details, but my assmption and conclusions were the following :

 

Assumptions :

- Constant Deathblows

- Constant Apprentice Sneak Attack and Predator's Sense bonus 

- Pet and Ranger attacking same target

- Wolf pet

- Most passive increasing pet or ranger 

- per encounter abilities not considered

 

Conclusions 

- Wolf pet does about as much physical damages per hit as a Rogue, but there are almost no way to decrease its recovery time (No Durgan pet) and it has no lash nor big dexterity bonus. Eventually, that leads to pet doing something like 20-30% of Rogue DPS.

- As a rule of thumb, ranged weapons do approximately 60-66% damages of melee ones. I came to this conclusion by comparing Warbow and 2 handed weapon attack delay. 

- Stalker Link + Twinned Arrows basically DOUBLE ranger's DPS. Endgame, when both Ranger and Rogue have tons of weapon enchant, might and various +X% damage increase, this is what matters the most. Basically, that tends to compensate for the various Rogue +X% damage increase.

- Eventually, Rogue ended a  head above Ranger. It seemed to me that was a little more condition for them to deliver their optimal damages.

- Rogue DPS were more resilient against high DR. Of course, Ranger could switch to firearms, but loosing Twinned Arrows will basically kill the build's DPS.

 

And as said before, this does not take into account a lot of utilities that Ranger brings, such as pet tanking, Driving Flight, or the awesome Stunning Shots. 

 

I should do the maths again, especially after Saber nerf...

You should have taken Stormcaller or Persistance (DR problem solved and a leap in dps, too).

 

And you have to take into account that a melee rogue has to reach his enemies and therefore has to move (costs time) or has to disengage (falls on his face). The bow ranger only needs to target and fire - and this works even when his pet is still on the way.

Melee weapons have higher dps in general - maybe to make up for that running. So if the ranged ranger can achieve the same theoretical dps as a dual sabre melee rogue (assuming the rogue can instantly reach all his targets) this is another sign that there's something wrong with the rogue's performance. 

 

If you wanted to compare both properly (not only plain dps which will never be achieved during the game) you'd have to compare a ranged ranger to a ranged rogue and a melee ranger to a melee rogue - just to rule out all those tactical things that you can't put in a spreadsheet.

And even then I couldn't say if a properly outfitted and skilled melee ranger wouldn't outperform a effective melee rogue in a real playthough. Faster attack rate, automatic flanking, synergies between ranger & pet (wounding->predator's sense / stunning + flanking->deflection debuff, Appr. sneak, Merciless Comp. bonus damage from survival and so on), Stalker's Torc, pet's knockdown. The ranger has some nice things going on nowadays. Did you know that stunning shots work with driving flight in melee? You will stun an enemy behind your target if you use stunning shots + driving flight and a melee weapon. Stupid, I know...

 

I think it can be fun to play a rogue with guns. Then the timing with guns and the timing with afflictions would make sense and you could possibly take out dangerous enemies with one single shot. +150% arquebus damage is really hefty when combined with a lash. He wouldn't be top dps but could be useful. But that's not enough for me when it comes to rogues. And most of the time you want to kill those casters quickly. Waiting for afflictions may be frustrating. A fighter with Charge + Knockdown can instantly take out such an enemy, reach the next and deal a ton of damage while moving from one side of the field to the other in the blink of a second. What does the rogue get? Ah, yes... Shadow Step... ach...

 

And then we haven't even talked about the druid who not only outperforms any rogue in melee but also can cast a whole lot of powerful stuff that makes him nearly invincible in a 1:1 situation. Add up Returning + Relentless + Nature's Terror + Avenging Storm and his mad wildstrikes with high speed and ridiculous high base damage + powerful lashes. You can even add powerful wounding (boar) or even more speed (cat) for more dps. Druid is fun, no doubt. But it's a shame that he can do everything better than a rogue. But please don't nerf druids now! Jeeez!

Edited December 30, 2016 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

Found this pre-saber nerf spreadsheet [...]

EDIT: Copy paste table didn't work well, and I don't want to waste effort on a out-of-date one.

 

> Boeroer : I'm perfectly aware that my analysis wasn't perfect. I think it's pretty insane with a lot of subcase according to Deflection/ Etc...

Example : Sure for persistence, but why not Tidefall Rogue in this case ?

 

My point was really to determine how much melee rogue in optimal condition was above bow ranger with pet, and I was pretty satisfied with my "order of magnitude" conclusions 

And to summarize the conclusion : Rogue is not far above enough to justify the lack of other utility and difficulty of use in a real playthrough.

 

Which is quite in line with what you say 

 

By the way, druid is insane, yeah. But for limited time only. And cancelling all magic items kind of hurt (especially for secondary defenses). Excellent but not reliable Single Target DPS.

Of course, druid is not only about that

Edited December 30, 2016 by Elric Galad

[the streaker]

The best one target Dps class at the moment is the shapeshift druid, wich can reach abut 200-230 DMG on hit with 0 recovery ( + a wounding lash if you are a boar). Nothing else come even close.

 

Not true at all, mate. In the other thread, a guy posted a rogue 3 levels below max which showed a max per-hit damage of 200. Who knows if it was even optimized. It's not a stretch to say you could increase that at least a bit over lvl 14-16.

 

Also, I don't know why you'd add driving flight to a single-target DPS comparison... there's no doubt the rogue is junk at anything other than single-target DPS, no need to prove it further.

[JerekKruger]

Not true at all, mate. In the other thread, a guy posted a rogue 3 levels below max which showed a max per-hit damage of 200. Who knows if it was even optimized. It's not a stretch to say you could increase that at least a bit over lvl 14-16.

 

What Talents or Abilities is a Rogue going to get in its last few levels that are going to significantly improve its damage that is hasn't already taken by level 13? By that point I'd expect all of the only damage Talents that remain are things like Beast Slayer, which are situational, and there aren't any big damage Abilities at high levels for the Rogue.

 

Also, as Dr <3 says, a Shapeshift Druid can reach 200+ damage as standard, not on a lucky max, so pointing out that a rogue can hit for 200 on what was presumably a well rolled crit isn't exactly proving that the Rogue is at parity with the Druid for single target damage.

[the streaker]

No offense, but which expert did that spreadsheet? Nerd Commando?

 

Good one!   for a second there, I forgot which subforum of which game I was reading...

 

Regarding your arquebus comments, you probably already know the basics, but bows are only stronger vs. low DR enemies. The guns are/were actually very well balanced around the concept of armor penetration, and piercing damage is a pretty common DR. And this completely ignores the fact that all the damage of an arquebus is front-loaded, which is hugely important in combat. First backstab shot out of stealth is massive for a rogue. Overkill is an issue if you are running 6 arquebuses in a party, not just one. Furthermore, there is no real equivalent to the "gunner" talent for a bow.

 

Again, I make no claims to rangers being weak as of White March II. Like I predicted, maybe once you work out the DPS with a new bow and twin arrows, it catches up to melee rogue and at that point the rogue is obsolete. But the original rogue DPS far exceeded the ranger.

[Dr <3]

What i like most about druids is that you have most of the best disable spells in the game ( storms, wave, petrify spells ecc) and you can become a wonderful DPS melee ( or even ranged with Rotten Skulls). This is expecially useful in solo play, since you are really autarchic: cast spell for disable, cast spell for aoe mass DMG, more disable, tranform and eat the survivors. In party someone else can take care of the disable part and you can already start eating. With maxed int the shapeshift can reach about 24 seconds wich is enough time to slain at least 4-5 mobs.

[Dr <3]

 

 

 

The best one target Dps class at the moment is the shapeshift druid, wich can reach abut 200-230 DMG on hit with 0 recovery ( + a wounding lash if you are a boar). Nothing else come even close.

Not true at all, mate. In the other thread, a guy posted a rogue 3 levels below max which showed a max per-hit damage of 200. Who knows if it was even optimized. It's not a stretch to say you could increase that at least a bit over lvl 14-16.

 

Also, I don't know why you'd add driving flight to a single-target DPS comparison... there's no doubt the rogue is junk at anything other than single-target DPS, no need to prove it further.

Do you have a link? i'm interested in see it.

And it was solo or party? Because my "reference shapeshift druid" was thought to be in solo, whitout any kind of buff ( hi Priest! ).

Actually i never tryed it with some buff from Priest ( Champions boon & devotions overall) + the lashing chant of a Chanter + the leeching chant of a second chanter would be hilarous.

[the streaker]

Sure, it's linked in the first post of this thread. 199 max damage. Not max level, not optimal race (elf is useless in melee), far below maxed strength, not even using a 2-hander for top damage per hit. Clearly not a min-maxed build, safe to say all the right talents aren't in play either.

 

Now imagine what that max dmg figure could be if all of those simple tweaks were incorporated.

 

Edit: actually you don't have to imagine, search highest crit and you'll find a post on this forum of a guy doing 700+ with his rogue. I've seen higher, 1000+, but can't find right away. Honestly I also agree that rogues need a buff, because this game is more than just single-target DPS, and rogues offer almost nothing else. But I mean let's be real, nothing beats a good rogue sneak attack for blowing up one dummy.

Edited December 30, 2016 by the streaker

[FluxWing]

Regardless of single target DPS, in general the problem with Rogues in my opinion is:
 
Low surivability, low party utility.

Other CRPGs this is offset with unique utility such as:
lockpicking, disarm traps, pickpocketing.
In PoE, this is as we know is universal.

When you bring a Rogue, keeping them alive is like an extra chore more than anything.

That high single-target DPS rarely comes in to play.
 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other issues are:

Problem 1

No incentive to use light armor.

Suggested Solution:
Buff that stacks inversly proportional to Armor's recovery penalty:
50% recovery = no bonus
40% recovery = +10% dodge
...
15% recovery = 35% dodge
0% plain clothes = 50% dodge

 

This bonus wold stack stack with deflection.
(multiclass talent perhaps that gives half that effect)

 

This could help with staying alive. Perhaps baking this into Evasion. Or just like Fighters have Armored Grace, Rogue's have "Comfortable in sweatpants"

 

Problem 2.
No incentive to use fast light weapons due to high DR.

Suggested Solution:
 - % Raw damage conversion, perhaps doubled while flanking.
    OR
 - ArmorPenetration stacking debuff. Stacks faster with fast weap.
   Perhaps double stacks while flanking.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Problem 3.

Rework the strike abilities. Low duration single target abilities.
All of them feel very very underwhelming mid-late game.

Suggested Solution, Alternative 1.
Either simply make their charges per encounters scale per level.
ex. Blinding Strike: 1/encounter + 1/3 levels.

 

Suggested Solution, Alternative 2.

Perhaps make their ability strikes more like the vencian casters.

Global pool of charges representing (prepared alchemical supplies or whatever)

Abilities can either:

• Add to the palette of poisonous flavours,
• Or change the paintbrush technique in which is the poison is applied.

Ex.
Global charges 4 + 1/level.

Flavours:
Blinding poison, cost 2 charges
Crippling poison, cost 1
Withering poison,
Fearing poison,
Sap poison,


Paintbrush-technique:
(implemented like a modal which affects what happens when you press the poison ability)
Strike  (Basic, apply poison with single weapon)
Pin point:  (single weapon. Apply poison with +50% duration, -50% ability damage)
Double-Strike: (Full attack, +50% damage, -50% duration)
Blow dart: (medium range attack, -80% damage)
"Blown-Kiss" powder: (short AoE range conal spread, -100% damage)
Pirouette: (Attack all adjacent. -20% duration, -20% damage, +100% charge cost)

Smoke-bomb: (medium range AoE, like Wizards's Arcane Assault, +200% charge cost)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And neither of my above suggestions address the stealth issue, which I do not disagree needs something.

You simply need way too many Ability/Talent points to make it "half OK" for the first strike of combat.

 

The slippery/mobility based abilities could also be improved add extra "poison charges" when used, emulating the Rogue trying to buy more time to be able to survive in combat until the opponent can once again be weakened enough for them to engage in melee.

 

ex.

Evade: restores 3 alchemical supply charges.

[Dr <3]

Sure, it's linked in the first post of this thread. 199 max damage. Not max level, not optimal race (elf is useless in melee), far below maxed strength, not even using a 2-hander for top damage per hit. Clearly not a min-maxed build, safe to say all the right talents aren't in play either.

 

Now imagine what that max dmg figure could be if all of those simple tweaks were incorporated.

 

Edit: actually you don't have to imagine, search highest crit and you'll find a post on this forum of a guy doing 700+ with his rogue. I've seen higher, 1000+, but can't find right away. Honestly I also agree that rogues need a buff, because this game is more than just single-target DPS, and rogues offer almost nothing else. But I mean let's be real, nothing beats a good rogue sneak attack for blowing up one dummy.

This values ( 700+ DMG) are obtainable only with finishing blow against a very low Life target, so ok, you can consider them legit values, but they are a bit circumstantial and obviously largely overkill ( you will never be able to one shot a dragon at the start of the fight with that, you can just do """ even 1700 DMG """ to a target with less than 5% of health, so the real DMG that you can inflict is rarely more then 200 ( in best case scenario). Maybe also the 199 DMG reported by your link is from a finishing blow, but i doesn't have enough information to be sure about that. And you still have not considered all the possible buffs applied ecc.

 

I'm still sure druid will have the upper hand in the same buffed condition.

Moreover druid Just need a storm to start hitting stunned targets, for the rogue enable deathblows for the same duration is not equal easy.

Anyway when i have time i will try an optimized DPS druid + party buff combo too se how High i can go.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Dr <3

[Boeroer]

You have to remember that one lucky crit with an arquebus + Finishing Blow + whatnot and whatever doesn't say anything about your dps - damage per second.

 

For example the highest single target melee DPS (not highest damage per hit) generally comes from Drawn in Spring, the highest ranged DPS from Persistence - when wielded with 0 recovery. Both because of wounding with high MIG values. Both weapons are not doing exceptional high damage numbers per hit. But in terms of DPS they are top. They also work great against high DR targets despite being fast and light.

 

High numbers per hit look impressive, but they are no proof of DPS.

And please let us not talk about Finishing Blow when we talk about rogues' DPS - one of the most useless and overrated abilities of the game. It nearly does zero for overall DPS. It's just a cosmetic effect for your char sheet. They should call it "Overkilling Blow". It's as useless as Bloody Slaughter - which is sometimes recommended by people who like Overkilling Blow in order to generate those high numbers. Let's call it Bloody Laughter.

 

Your overall DPS will be high if you can constantly score high numbers with every hit AND if you can hit as fast as possible (preferably with 0 recovery while having Vuln. Attack on). This counts for single target damage as well as for AoE. A druid usually hits like a truck with high speed (although not 0 recovery most of times) and doesn't have to look at afflictions or whatever. Every successful graze/hit/crit will cause around 150-250 damage and his DR bypass can be great, too. If he chooses boar and has wounding he's doing absolutely great against high DR targets as well as against low DR targets. He can push this further with Avenging Storm, doing massive shock damage on strikes and also when getting hit. He can stunlock his opponent without any time loss while hitting him, causing lots of crits and at the same time prevent other enemies from hurting him.

And let's not forget that his lashes and also Avenging Storm/Relentless Storm can profit from Heart of the Storm which will multiply his overall shock damage which is more than 50% of the damage he causes - by 1.2.

 

A rogue's power curve after lvl 11 is flat. I mean which significant boost to DPS or even damage per hit come after Deathblows? I can't think of anything with big impact. The best thing you can do is to improve your equipment with durgan steel and maybe smear a dragon's or kraken's eyeball over it.

 

But even then: not too long ago we had a discussion where we compared (in game, including tests) a perfectly build 0 recovery rogue with dual Rimecutters (durganized and lashes and so on - a strong setup on paper, one of the best for dps) to a cat druid with wild strike shock. I have to admit I put my bet on the rogue back then. I was proven so wrong - it was a shame.

And the druid doesn't even need any fancy item for this besides the wildstrike belt.

 

That's only the "theoretical" advantage of a druid. Then, if you compare both in a real playthrough it's so obvious that the rogue is so much weaker. It hurts. It makes you angry at the druid and you feel pity for the poor rogue. That's why I say that he should be made better at doing rogue stuff. And I don't mean killing people with 1000+ damage hits who have 10 endurance left... For example: a really cool ability would have been if the rogue could do one single opening attack out of stealth which halved the endurance of the target. Do you remember "Stasis Field" from Diablo 2? Quite the opposite to Overkilling Blow. If Bloody Slaughter would then be changed to be triggered at 50% instead of 10% endurance that would be nice.

 

And please don't say thay I just don't have enough experience or that I didn't find the right build yet...