The US Election, Part XI

[BruceVC]

 

I think the media wants to know where he is at all times so they can spam his location so some crazy can assassinate him. More than a few wackos have lost their job for threatening Trump already post election. They're lucky  that  that Obama is still president and won't have them investigated. He'd likjely pardon any assassin if they do  while he is still in office.

 

This is eerie. I am thinking the same thing.

 

Okay so what is your reason for this type of inexplicable thinking?  A mild psychosis or just irrational fear that the " Muricans may invade Finland "  ?

[Longknife]

 

My biggest concern moving forward actually isn't that we have Trump for the moment, but that the media and some individuals (luckily I don't feel it's a majority) don't seem to grasp what a dangerous tone they're setting for the nation.

 

I mean on one hand I didn't want Hillary to win because it'd set a precedent for future candidates to rig the Democratic primary or buy off the media. She didn't win, so cool, no precedent. On the other hand, it also should've been a learning experience about how you can't just function as blatant propaganda, you cannot show blatant disrespect for either political side, you cannot provide false narratives and you cannot just try and use a bad candidate as an opportunity to push an establishment one.

 

I honestly question if ANY lessons were learned. Talk of Tim Kaine as a potential 2020 candidate, that the media still seems to be on auto-pilot and can't find a better use of their time beyond...whining about Trump's dinner, the surprising amount of friends and contacts I have that seem to think USA is about to become Nazi Germany....I mean as I said, an old high school friend of mine that used to be pretty level-headed told me to stop mansplaining when I stated that "emails > LGBT" is a rather dishonest oversimplification seeing as how included in those emails were statements implying Clinton hates homosexuals. (and yes I agree she wouldn't act on that, merely wished to highlight oversimplifications accomplish nothing)

 

There's sooooo many people who seem to want to view Trump's victory as proof that people hate their minority group and want to kill them, when wtf no, go view the facts objectively. There were a number of reasons not to vote for Clinton and you've no proof people purposefully voted Trump specifically to spite your group. Such a ridiculous oversimplification is akin to if I said Obama voters hate babies and want humans to stop populating the earth and die off because he condones abortion.

 

Trump's presidency has plenty of potential to be terrible and questionable, but I continue to be amazed at how I'm constantly distracted by other problems that somehow manage to seem bigger. It's like the entirety of the USA is trying to out-terrible each other, and I legitimately think that some serious action needs to take place in regards to the media as of late, as I find it alarming I can't name a single mainstream media source that's credible anymore. Hell, I can't even name a secondary one that's widely known but not quite mainstream (Huffington post, TYT, Alex Jones) either; they're equally terrible. The media played a huge role in how terrible things got, but even today we see no shame and no sign of things changing for the better from them.

LK your opinion on this election was that the results were basically rigged and that the Media were going to be instrumental in a Hilary victory. Others shared this sentiment 

 

After this result what do you now think?

 

 

 

Well we still have hard evidence she rigged the Democratic Primary (or allowed others to do it for her). I'm glad she didn't rig the presidential election, but at the same time speaking more pragmatically, I'm amazed these people rigged the Democratic Primary and couldn't grasp that if you fix the Democratic primary, you probably have to be ready to do the same for the main election or you won't like the results. While it let's me breathe a sigh of relief in the sense perhaps fixing the election is far harder than we've been led to believe (the 2000 election was very suspect, for example, and I think it gave many Americans the belief that yes numbers get fudged regularly), it also gives me a new kind of stress in that I do find it a tad alarming the Clinton campaign could be that incompetent.  As I said, I'm glad it wasn't rigged, but I would also hope people running for president are intelligent and can grasp basic concepts such as that.

 

The media continues to be problematic, and one has to wonder why. Are they just on auto-pilot? Are they answering to George Soros or something? It's nothing but propaganda at this point to instill hate, and that's exactly what we don't need. The only one not acting as anti-Trump propaganda is FOX News, which has always been propaganda for the right anyways.

 

To me, this election was a lesson in respect. I would be quick to agree that Trump is the worst, least qualified presidential candidate the USA has ever had, but that does not give people a license to be hateful towards the entire Republican party. People thought it did, and look what that got them. THAT'S the lesson. Some people don't get this, but I feel people succumb to mob mentality and the like, so I'm less critical of them. The media, I'm highly critical of them because they're the guys that can spark mob mentality in the first place. Based on what I've read, mainstream media lost 40% of it's viewership in 2015, so I suspect they're desperate to stay afloat. Perhaps in their desperation, they're no longer interested in serving the interests of the people, but rather the interests of the highest bidder. Perhaps the goal isn't to increase viewership and thus gain ad revenue, but rather to suit the narrative of a wealthy donor who will continue to provide for them so long as they continue to suit his narrative. That would be extremely dangerous, and I'd hope we could come up with a way to address this problem without having to come dangerously close to something akin to censorship.

 

 

What's crazy to me is and a reason I was so critical of Clinton is because her campaign crossed multiple lines for me. For me, it was never about Clinton vs. Trump, it was about the precedent of future elections. Before Clinton, I never had to worry that users online were paid shills that were paid to present this idea that there's tons of pro-Clinton supporters out there and that any discussion with them was just arguing in bad faith. Before this, I'd never find myself questioning if my online partner in discussion was sincere or if they were paid, and what that ultimately resulted in was a LOT less discussion of issues because nobody knew when their discussion was in good faith or a blatant waste of time.

 

Before Clinton's campaign, anything I've learned from Wikileaks would've been something I referred to as a conspiracy theory. Great example, there's currently a theory out there painting George Soros as a Bond Villain who purposefully creates unrest in countries - particularly USA and Russia - so that he can play it to his own advantage. Think Peter Baelish from Game of Thrones using chaos as a ladder. That's George Soros, and while parts of that theory I saw sound absolutely crazy and absurd, I actually find myself in a position where based on what I have seen, I now have to afford such a theory the time of day and question if it's true or not.

 

Her campaign is over now, but the remaining problems seem to be the media and potentially George Soros. As I said I've no idea why the hell the media continues to run on auto-pilot with such a blatant bias against Trump and in favor of the democratic party (and of course not all Democrats. Only the ones the establishment likes or considers beneficial), but it's a problem all the same. I do NOT see them fixing that problem either, as I get the impression their paycheck now more or less comes entirely from some establishment millionaire rather than viewership, so they've no motivation to change.

 

 

On that note? Sad that Jon Stewart is no longer on air. I remember one Wikileaks email implicating Colbert took some money from Clinton's campaign, and sure enough even comedy central shows have become very very slanted. Jon Stewart however said this, which is one of the better summaries I've seen of this election and the problems that remain:

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

Nazism is at the root of all things.

 

Can't say I would jump on minorities too much if they are apprehensive at the moment. Not so much from Trump and whatever cranks he surrounds himself with, but does seem asshats feel emboldened now. That'll fade in a while, I feel, as they stand up to be rapped.

 

Even have that here, but more likely useless edgy suburb trash rather than outright bigots. Did spark a hilarious realization by some that...racism may always have been in Canada!

In Canada? That is a shock but we have to be specific, what type of racism....white supremacy, islamophobia, racist to black people etc.

All of that. Also against Natives. Canadians have interesting delusions, I have noticed.

 

And no, curling isn't a real sport

 

I have to say coming from Canada that is even more disappointing

 

I am well aware that anywhere in the world where white people are dominant there will always be small groups within those white communities that are racist or display bigotry

 

And the strange thing is white people are historically the least most discriminated demographic group in the world

 

In SA sometimes a black person  thinks they will offend white people by comparing us to something that is not at  all insulting...for example some black people think the worst thing to call a white person is a comparison to Hitler not realizing only some Jewish people would get offended by that

 

 http://synapses.co.za/mcebo-dlaminis-free-speech-love-hitler/

[Fighter]

Only Jewish people get offended at being compared to a genocidal racist?

[Meshugger]

 

 

I think the media wants to know where he is at all times so they can spam his location so some crazy can assassinate him. More than a few wackos have lost their job for threatening Trump already post election. They're lucky  that  that Obama is still president and won't have them investigated. He'd likjely pardon any assassin if they do  while he is still in office.

 

This is eerie. I am thinking the same thing.

 

Okay so what is your reason for this type of inexplicable thinking?  A mild psychosis or just irrational fear that the " Muricans may invade Finland "  ?

 

 

Empathy, Bruce. Empathy.

[BruceVC]

Only Jewish people get offended at being compared to a genocidal racist?

Im from the UK, its like saying  " all white people from the UK  have  a bit of Stalin in them" ...its such a nebulous association why would I get offended? For example just because you Russian someone calling you Stalin would that actually offend you ? 

 

For me real bigotry is not about words,  it has to have intent and impact. I am honestly battling to think  what you could call any white person that would conjure up real images of misery?

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I think the media wants to know where he is at all times so they can spam his location so some crazy can assassinate him. More than a few wackos have lost their job for threatening Trump already post election. They're lucky  that  that Obama is still president and won't have them investigated. He'd likjely pardon any assassin if they do  while he is still in office.

 

This is eerie. I am thinking the same thing.

 

Okay so what is your reason for this type of inexplicable thinking?  A mild psychosis or just irrational fear that the " Muricans may invade Finland "  ?

 

 

Empathy, Bruce. Empathy.

 

Okay....well normally I would take any post with the word empathy in it seriously because I often say " in life we need to have empathy " 

 

But you have never really demonstrated any real empathy on these forums? Or am I being unfair ?

[Gromnir]

 

Also against Natives.

Knock me over with a feather! For whatever reason, Ive never once considered that NA's would also be in Canada. Obviously things didn't go well in the US but whats the relationship with the Canadian government? Are there reservations in Canada too?

 

canada has reserves rather than reservations.  biggest difference 'tween reserves and reservations is the degree o' control and self-determination the native peoples have within the borders o' those tracts o' land. when dealing with indigenous peoples, canada has been more consistent over the years and is currently far more paternalistic than is the US fed.  as such, US reservations have greater extremes o' success and failure, though canadian reserves is nevertheless trending more towards fail than success in spite o' greater Parliamentary control. 

 

am recalling 'bout ten years ago how dave gaider, a dyed-in-wool social justice warrior and vocal advocate o' lgbt rights, were raging on the bio boards 'bout the native peoples o' canada and the poor management o' reserves.  curious disconnect? nope. dave's car had been stolen and abandoned on or near a reserve. dave's values were tested and at the time, he sounded far more like a trump supporter circa 2016 than the vocal proponent o' all things good and just and sunny he is today. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 17, 2016 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

 

 

Also against Natives.

Knock me over with a feather! For whatever reason, Ive never once considered that NA's would also be in Canada. Obviously things didn't go well in the US but whats the relationship with the Canadian government? Are there reservations in Canada too?

 

canada has reserves rather than reservations.  biggest difference 'tween reserves and reservations is the degree o' control and self-determination the native peoples have within the borders o' those tracts o' land. when dealing with indigenous peoples, canada has been more consistent over the years and is currently far more paternalistic than is the US fed.  as such, US reservations have greater extremes o' success and failure, though canadian reserves is nevertheless trending more towards fail than success in spite o' greater Parliamentary control. 

 

am recalling 'bout ten years ago how dave gaider, a dyed-in-wool social justice warrior and vocal advocate o' lgbt rights, were raging on the bio boards 'bout the native peoples o' canada and the poor management o' reserves.  curious disconnect? nope. dave's car had been stolen and abandoned on or near a reserve. dave's values were tested and at the time, he sounded far more like a trump supporter circa 2016 than the vocal proponent o' all things good and just and sunny he is today. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

David Gaider was a very brave man who was the first game writer to introduce gay Romance into the Bioware series

 

As usual this type of pioneering was rejected by some but I respect him immensely for taking the brave step into this type of inclusivity   

[Gfted1]

LGBT characters in video games.

[Gromnir]

we like dave.  nevertheless, on the issue o' canada's indigenous peoples, dave were full o' venom and vitriol.  reading dave's posts, we got no doubt bruce woulda' been channeling iron eyes cody. more than a few bruce tears would salt the earth 'pon seeing how a social justice warrior such as dave could harbor such anger for native peoples. 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps funny aside, iron eyes cody were actual espera oscar de corti, the child of sicilian immigrants.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Gromnir

[imaenoon]

EDIT: why bother

Edited November 17, 2016 by imaenoon

[Drowsy Emperor]

Oh the ultimate reason that the whole of the western world is shifting to the right is that economics have been going down the drain for decades. Its been a very slow trickle downwards, but problems have finally accumulated to the point that they can have serious political implications.

 

At one point one man's work was enough to feed and house a family. Now both partners work like dogs and never see their children for the same result.

 

The lower classes lack political organization and numbers to drive these changes. But enough of the middle class has eroded and is resembling the lower classes in many things except for the physicality of the work - so that when their numbers add up they can put someone like Trump in power.

The intellectuals that voted out of spite because of the dishonesty of the current system are surely a minority.

 

I don't think anything lesser of either the lower or the middle class for it - the reaction has been long overdue. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Zoraptor]

And that is only going to get worse so long as current policies continue.

 

There are two mutually incompatible forces at work. Most western countries aren't having enough children for a population where the old are expected to live into their late 70s or 80s. But, ironically, there also aren't enough jobs for those children anyway; and the people who pay for those jobs don't want to pay what a closed market would demand, they want someone used to an Indian/ Indonesian/ Mexican/ African or wherever else wage to be in them. So you have the peculiar circumstance of simultaneously having too many and too few jobs for too many and too few people. You also have the competing desires of the older part of the populace- who want the superannuation, healthcare etc that they paid for over 40 years- versus the younger population who have to pay for it all once the older people retire, because governments accumulated debt rather than prepared for all those old people, shifting the burden onto the current generation. Since old people vote they tend to get what they want, which leaves much of the younger set and anyone who expected to have a manufacturing job for life deeply disillusioned and looking for someone to blame.

 

When political and economic orthodoxy is failing people go for the unorthodox, and that means either left or right.

 

The most ironic thing is probably old people blaming millenials for everything having voted themselves low taxes, debt spending, easy credit and everything else that benefits them and their position. Having their cake, eating their cake then complaining that their children need to harden up because they're taking the children's cake and eating that too.

 

(as always with generalisations, it's deeply unfair to certain individuals within the generalised group. otoh, if you keep voting from pure self interest don't complain when others do the same)

[Drowsy Emperor]

Its true. Europe has become an old society, a gerontocracy, without the fire necessary for genuine political upheaval. 

 

The sort of idea of having this stagnant state where everyone is permanently wealthy because they all never split their wealth among multiple children simply doesn't work. With civilizations, its expand or die. You have to create wealth, not just shuffle it around.

 

The funny thing is that the EU is immensely powerful in aggregate. But they're all just pissing it away.

 

 300 million people and not one real leader at the head of any single state? Okay.

 

The only politician in Europe that can say he achieved a major political goal in his lifetime is Nigel Farage. Dwell on that for a moment

Edited November 17, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

I think the media wants to know where he is at all times so they can spam his location so some crazy can assassinate him. More than a few wackos have lost their job for threatening Trump already post election. They're lucky  that  that Obama is still president and won't have them investigated. He'd likjely pardon any assassin if they do  while he is still in office.

 

This is eerie. I am thinking the same thing.

 

Okay so what is your reason for this type of inexplicable thinking?  A mild psychosis or just irrational fear that the " Muricans may invade Finland "  ?

 

 

Empathy, Bruce. Empathy.

 

Okay....well normally I would take any post with the word empathy in it seriously because I often say " in life we need to have empathy " 

 

But you have never really demonstrated any real empathy on these forums? Or am I being unfair ?

 

 

Empathy in trying to get my point. 

 

I only have suspicions, but following a person in their every move and report it to everyone is in itself not of best intensions. One could even say malevolent, so the thought of hoping that someone would snap and take care of this unperson called Trump is not that far fetched though. I hope that i am wrong and it is just a sign of hysteria.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Frankly Bruce, I've had my fair share of disagreements and arguments in this forum with a lot of people, but if there is one person that strikes me as being genuinely incapable of empathy, its you.

 

And I don't say this because of your well known comments regarding the bombing of Yugoslavia, I say it because you speak like a political mouthpiece and its simply impossible to tell what is your genuine opinion (if you even have any) and what is just passive-aggressive baiting of others.  

[BruceVC]

Oh the ultimate reason that the whole of the western world is shifting to the right is that economics have been going down the drain for decades. Its been a very slow trickle downwards, but problems have finally accumulated to the point that they can have serious political implications.

 

At one point one man's work was enough to feed and house a family. Now both partners work like dogs and never see their children for the same result.

 

The lower classes lack political organization and numbers to drive these changes. But enough of the middle class has eroded and is resembling the lower classes in many things except for the physicality of the work - so that when their numbers add up they can put someone like Trump in power.

The intellectuals that voted out of spite because of the dishonesty of the current system are surely a minority.

 

I don't think anything lesser of either the lower or the middle class for it - the reaction has been long overdue. 

Your view that the West is in economic decline is horribly inaccurate ...

 

Come on the Internet is easy to use ?

 

http://howafrica.com/worlds-largest-economies-2016/

[Volourn]

"I am well aware that anywhere in the world where white people are dominant there will always be small groups within those white communities that are racist or display bigotry"

 

You actually believe that racism/.bigotry is just a white only disease? ARE YOU INSANE? Bigotry/hatred against something(one) different than you was a thing well before the first white person appeared. COME ON.

 

 Hell, I know people have a habit of dehumanizing Indians by whitewashing their history but  they have a LONG history of hatred of those of different tribes. Multiuple tribes were wiped out by other tribes for giggles. And, let's not pretend the ME doesn't exist. Not to mention the whole Japanese vs Chinese  fun. LMAO And, blacks and Asians also have a nice history in the US of racial disharmony.

 

 

L0L Racxism/.bigotry is a white only disease. L0L HAHAHAHA

[BruceVC]

Frankly Bruce, I've had my fair share of disagreements and arguments in this forum with a lot of people, but if there is one person that strikes me as being genuinely incapable of empathy, its you.

 

And I don't say this because of your well known comments regarding the bombing of Yugoslavia, I say it because you speak like a political mouthpiece and its simply impossible to tell what is your genuine opinion (if you even have any) and what is just passive-aggressive baiting of others.  

That is also very inaccurate...how can you suggest I dont care about events or people ?

 

" passive -aggressive " ? I cannot believe you are being serious, ask anyone who engages with me...ask GD or Meshugger or anyone else ...ask volo

 

I have huge empathy for certain things and people, unless that is not how I come across which is unlikely but possible ?

Edited November 17, 2016 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

And that is only going to get worse so long as current policies continue.

 

There are two mutually incompatible forces at work. Most western countries aren't having enough children for a population where the old are expected to live into their late 70s or 80s. But, ironically, there also aren't enough jobs for those children anyway; and the people who pay for those jobs don't want to pay what a closed market would demand, they want someone used to an Indian/ Indonesian/ Mexican/ African or wherever else wage to be in them. So you have the peculiar circumstance of simultaneously having too many and too few jobs for too many and too few people. You also have the competing desires of the older part of the populace- who want the superannuation, healthcare etc that they paid for over 40 years- versus the younger population who have to pay for it all once the older people retire, because governments accumulated debt rather than prepared for all those old people, shifting the burden onto the current generation. Since old people vote they tend to get what they want, which leaves much of the younger set and anyone who expected to have a manufacturing job for life deeply disillusioned and looking for someone to blame.

 

When political and economic orthodoxy is failing people go for the unorthodox, and that means either left or right.

 

The most ironic thing is probably old people blaming millenials for everything having voted themselves low taxes, debt spending, easy credit and everything else that benefits them and their position. Having their cake, eating their cake then complaining that their children need to harden up because they're taking the children's cake and eating that too.

 

(as always with generalisations, it's deeply unfair to certain individuals within the generalised group. otoh, if you keep voting from pure self interest don't complain when others do the same)

Oh here we go....I have to say this is  a new low even for you in your surreptious attempts to undermine the USA 

 

Playing the old  " the West is running out of children " conspiracy theory...Zora do you think anyone in the USA believes what you say ? 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

"Everything's going just fine, shut up proles" - wealthy spawn of banker

 

The west is shifting right because the economy is disintegrating with globalisation+automation(the natural evolution of capitalism) and the right is the only saying anything about it with the most radical of the political (reformist) left being castrated socdems too scared to challenge the status quo. There's no way to reverse the former and the latter would take a great fire that resurrects the corpse of the radical left. There's going to be some economic turbulence soon, and perhaps having right-populists in charge during it will be that fire.

 

At any rate the coming years will be interesting.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Oh the ultimate reason that the whole of the western world is shifting to the right is that economics have been going down the drain for decades. Its been a very slow trickle downwards, but problems have finally accumulated to the point that they can have serious political implications.

 

At one point one man's work was enough to feed and house a family. Now both partners work like dogs and never see their children for the same result.

 

The lower classes lack political organization and numbers to drive these changes. But enough of the middle class has eroded and is resembling the lower classes in many things except for the physicality of the work - so that when their numbers add up they can put someone like Trump in power.

The intellectuals that voted out of spite because of the dishonesty of the current system are surely a minority.

 

I don't think anything lesser of either the lower or the middle class for it - the reaction has been long overdue. 

Your view that the West is in economic decline is horribly inaccurate ...

 

Come on the Internet is easy to use ?

 

http://howafrica.com/worlds-largest-economies-2016/

 

 

Decline is defined by having less of something than you had yesterday, not whatever one figure is relevant at any given moment.

[BruceVC]

"Everything's going just fine, shut up proles" - wealthy spawn of banker

 

The west is shifting right because the economy is disintegrating with globalisation+automation(the natural evolution of capitalism) and the right is the only saying anything about it with the most radical of the political (reformist) left being castrated socdems too scared to challenge the status quo. There's no way to reverse the former and the latter would take a great fire that resurrects the corpse of the radical left. There's going to be some economic turbulence soon, and perhaps having right-populists in charge during it will be that fire.

 

At any rate the coming years will be interesting.

KP again I find myself thoroughly disappointed by your anti-USA  sentiment

 

It would be different if this was post was at least accurate but its not. It reminds me of something that Serb political commentator would say, its basically rhetoric and hyperbole 

 

Please provide the links to support this radical view but its highly unlikely you will have more insight into the strength and sustainability of the US economy than people I know who currently work in Wall Street 

[Hurlshort]

 

 

Decline is defined by having less of something than you had yesterday, not whatever one figure is relevant at any given moment.

 

 

Then I am not sure how you can possibly characterize the west as in decline.  Growth amongst lower and middle classes is terribly stagnant compared to the wealthy, but compared to the past most people are still seeing an improvement in most areas.  Food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.