Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[Ben No.3]

Holy moley, I would need a second job just to pay my taxes in Germany.

I see some trouble with that logic

[BruceVC]

Holy moley, I would need a second job just to pay my taxes in Germany.

Gfted1 !!!  I am shocked how you are breaking with inviolable forum decorum and commenting on the political affairs of another country, you dont want people thinking you cant mind your business

 

You will notice we all respect this important rule and very seldom get involved in US politics unless you guys ask us to 

[Gfted1]

Those percentages are outrageous but you guys get free college and uhc (iirc) so I guess its a wash.

[Volourn]

Those tax rates are awful. 42% at about 50k? That's insane. Quarter of your money at 14k? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You at ebetter off for the most part working part time and make 8k. LMAO

[Ben No.3]

Those tax rates are awful. 42% at about 50k? That's insane. Quarter of your money at 14k? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? You at ebetter off for the most part working part time and make 8k. LMAO

On the other hand, you have excellent free education, both school and university, free health care, a working welfare system, good (ish) roads, good public transportation...

And especially thanks to the welfare system, Germany is one of the best countries to be poor in. Assuming you lost your job after at least one year of employment, here is what happenes: the first six months you get 50% of your previous income provided from the government, as long as you can prove you are applying for new jobs. Then, a certain amount of money is calculated you will get each month. It is calculated by how much you apply to new jobs, how big your family is, whether and how much other family members earn and so on...

[Volourn]

" Germany is one of the best countries to be poor in."

 

Exactly my point. It doesn't motivate people to work harder.

 

 

 "here is what happenes: the first six months you get 50% of your previous income provided from the government,"

 

And? that's true in most of the Western world. In my country it's called unemployment. Even the US has it (though I don't know what the % is there) but it is 50%ish in Kanada up to alimit and for a certain amount of tiem. And, then even after, there's always welfare. That doesn't change that those tax rates are basically stealing hard earned money from hard earning folks. Again, if your taxes mmakes it seem financially better to go to the lower tax rates you are doing it wrong. (not that Germany is unique in that aspect as my country depending what you make you are better off taking less shifts from work for example).
 

[Ben No.3]

I'd rather pay more taxes and know that if I drift into poverty I will be taken care of. I'd rather pay more taxes and being able to send my children to state education without them having a disadvantage compared to private education.

 

And economically speaking, the money comes back to you. It is not lost, the government does not keep it. It spends it and invests in projects that will benefit the public, so the money will come back to you... In a way.

 

And our welfare system is not only paying welfare, it is actively getting people new jobs. That is very useful, especially if the person is for example an immigrant with poor German skills. How are those cases of in the US? That's not an accusation, I honestly don't know

Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[BruceVC]

I'd rather pay more taxes and know that if I drift into poverty I will be taken care of. I'd rather pay more taxes and being able to send my children to state education without them having a disadvantage compared to private education.

 

And our welfare system is not only paying welfare, it is actively getting people new jobs. That is very useful, especially if the person is for example an immigrant with poor German skills. How are those cases of in the US? That's not an accusation, I honestly don't know

Ben of course you right, Germany is a  real example of how good governance, hard work, diligence and an amazing ability to move beyond its dark past and become economically powerful again  ....with no military serious growth

 

Germany is a real success story nowadays and you deserve respect and recognition. I doubt anyone on this forum will acknowledge this but that's fine, many people like myself are well aware of this  

 

People should be following Germany's economic model where reasonable and applicable  if they want to achieve additional economic growth 

 

 

volo do you think you could reinvent yourself if Canada was understandably punished like Germany was after WW2?

[Ben No.3]

Now Bruce, first of all thank you BUT

At least when talking about West Germany, the BRD was not severely punished after WWII. Which was the consequence of seeing how badly the concept of punishing Germany went after WWI... The treaty of Versailles made Nazi Germany possible in the first place .

 

Germany was greatly helped after WWII. Just look at the Marshall plan. The self inventing part is true though but even if we did pretty well, we still have problems... Especially parts of eastern Germany are still in need of care. Even if we ignore history, we are by no means the ideal country. But still, pretty nice job, I agree

 

But then again, we had an unfair advantage: we had a lot of experience what does NOT work when today's Germany was created, so the result is a constitution inspired by everything that went wrong in history. In a way, losing two world wars helped us.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Volourn]

"Ben of course you right, Germany is a  real example of how good governance, hard work, diligence and an amazing ability to move beyond its dark past and become economically powerful again  ....with no military serious growth"

 

Yup. Such good governing that led to million sof people being shoved into ovens. Such good governing that to this day they still have foreign troops on their soil  as punishment for their great governmental choices.

 

 

"And economically speaking, the money comes back to you. It is not lost, the government does not keep it. It spends it and invests in projects that will benefit the public, so the money will come back to you... In a way."

 

Not all of it. In fact, if you are paying taxes the more taxes you pay the less gov't services you likely need so the less taxes you pay you likely see back. Again, you at emissing the point of my post. It's not the concept of taxes that bother me - taxes are a necessary 'evil' especially in modern times for obvious infrastructure like roads, armies, and the like. However, if your taxes   are such a way that it might financially and  comfort sense to WANT to make less the tax system has failings.   In conclusions, taxes are needed bu the rates need to make sense.
 

[BruceVC]

Now Bruce, first of all thank you BUT

At least when talking about West Germany, the BRD was not severely punished after WWII. Which was the consequence of seeing how badly the concept of punishing Germany went after WWI... The treaty of Versailles made Nazi Germany possible in the first place .

 

Germany was greatly helped after WWII. Just look at the Marshall plan. The self inventing part is true though but even if we did pretty well, we still have problems... Especially parts of eastern Germany are still in need of care. Even if we ignore history, we are by no means the ideal country. But still, pretty nice job, I agree

 

But then again, we had an unfair advantage: we had a lot of experience what does NOT work when today's Germany was created, so the result is a constitution inspired by everything that went wrong in history. In a way, losing two world wars helped us.

Bennie ...you being a naughty boy because now you have compelled me to make a much more detailed post explaining in detail what I mean  

 

Normally I wouldn't make such a detailed post on these forums as most people dont really care that much but you have proven yourself  to  be  an intelligent  and thoughtful new member. You have put real effort into interesting topics and I respect that 

 

You do care about the future of the EU and Germany is absolutely the foundation of the EU for a number of reasons

 

So I need to tell you some things about Germany you may or may not be aware of. Nothing is perfect my young friend so of course there will always be degrees of criticism about any government which is normal but Germany does deserve real credit for a number of things

 

Anyway this post will take some time so I post it later once its done  

[BruceVC]

 

 

Yup. Such good governing that led to million sof people being shoved into ovens. 

 

 

volo !!! This is rude even by your standards but it makes me laugh because its such an uncommon and irrelevant criticism to make  about Germany  

 

I dont know any mainstream commentators who still have a major issue with Germany in the year 2016 for the Holocaust.,...we tend to stop blaming bad decisions governments made after about 30 years or so especially when they are contrite 

 

You Canadians hold strange grudges ?

[Volourn]

"volo !!! This is rude even by your standards but it makes me laugh because its such an uncommon and irrelevant criticism to make  about Germany  

 

I dont know any mainstream commentators who still have a major issue with Germany in the year 2016 for the Holocaust.,...we tend to stop blaming bad decisions governments made after about 30 years or so especially when they are contrite 

 

You Canadians hold strange grudges ?"

 

Yeah, I get it Bruce. bringing up Britian and Germany's poor behavior is 'rude'. But, bringing up US' history of slavery and Kanada's history of mistreatment of Indiains/Natives is fine and dandy. History is truth and must never be forgotten. I mean that is what your precious BLM says even though no BLM member has ever been a legal slave in the US. EVAR. But, there are people still living who had to live through Germany's misdeeds.

[Chippy]

 

The EU pariliament deserves to be insulted - publicly and otherwise. They are Nazis who bully, attack, murder, rape, steal, brainwash, and every other  truthful horrible thing that can be said. EVIL. EVIL TO THE CORE.

I reject this post completely, the EU has to enforce certain rules and laws in order for the union to function

 

This is to be expected and is necessary. What is a example of this severe EU bullying:?

 

Pffft, I could spend the rest of my sunday answering how the EU bully.  I thought it would be enough to just provide evidence of where a democratic vote has taken place and the EU has just ignored it, or told countries to repeatedly vote again until the EU got the vote they wanted.  But the counter argument seems to be - who cares we're all richer together as European people.

 

Some examples of EU bullying:

Trade - it tells us who we can trade with and more importantly who we can't.  As a result of Brexit Britain may now be able to trade with former Europen partners, other commonwealth countries, the United States (if Trump wins) and even China has expressed an interest.

 

Taxpayers money to EU leaders:

The average salary is between £200,000 - 250,000 for these people at the top of the EU to tell us how to live.  It was estimated in 2008 by an organization know as Open Europe that the EU only need 23,000 people to run it, but apparently is employing over 7 times that number.  An army of bureaucrats that tell us such things as the EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - a total of 26,911 words. It's estimated that Britain sends 53m a day to the EU.

 

EU demands:

The EU demanded in 2015 that Britain pay 1.7billion for being a member of the EU.  David Cameron paid. So our former Prime Minister (and he was pro EU) gets jacked, and pays out out like any good leader of any vassal state would - so what chance has a "democratically appointed representative" got?.

 

Democracy:

David Cameron negotiated a deal to protect small and medium buisness, curb taxpayers spending on immigration, and laws regulating taxpayers money on the eurozone - they agreed...and everyone knew that it could be ripped up at any time.

 

Tax:

Before the EU got its tentacles into the British tax system, we were only taxed on luxury goods and essentials were exempt.  By taxing service goods, it allows the EU to tax the economies of service based/developing countries to prevent them from competing with other countries outside of the EU, and this puts higher taxes on taxpayers because the base/living cost to people on benefits goes up - while taxpayers are also hit for service goods.

 

Pension:

Before Brexit, the EU wanted control of the pension system.  To continue the existing pension scheme, the EU proposed Britain would have to come up with fifteen times it's current defence budget - thats 35m x15.  Their response was that 'the money would simply have to be found.'

 

Security/Free Speech:

The elephant in the room. The EU wants open borders, Hillary Clinton wants to see how it all works out.  It's such a huge topic - but we've got the EU implementing hate speech laws for people concerned about security, jobs, and the countries capacity, and if EU judges/laws decide an offence has been commited, they are able to override the decisions of local judges and drag people out of their respected countries to be tried in foreign courts.

 

Education:

I spent a few years teaching, government expectations were that I should have been teaching no more than 60 adult high risk offenders per year - I was teaching between 1200 - 1500 per year.  A significant portion were migrants.  Courses that should have bee 400hours long were reduced to 30 hours to create this conveyor belt system of producing "work ready" offenders the government had written off as unemployable, and likely to be on benefits for the rest of their lives. Just one example of how the figures are fiddled and everyone looses.

 

Public Health service:

Our NHS is falling apart, people at the top are paid almost as much as the EU leaders - if they gave a damn about any of the above, they would have put it at the top of their list. You only have to ask people in their 70' and 80' how their overall quality of life has fropped in the past decades.

 

I think the only time Britain stood up to the EU before Brexit was when it insisted on a particular curvature of the cucumber and bannana.  Germany is economically better off because it's generally accepted that Britains managers and top execs are crap by comparison - but maybe that's what we get for eatin bent cucumbers and bannanas.

 

Sources:

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/677801/new-EU-threat-pension-expert-vote-leave-protect-retirement-pots?_ga=1.253103883.308668831.1476644930

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/eu-referendum-issues-for-against-11020375

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/leave-or-remain-in-the-eu-the-arguments-for-and-against-brexit/

Edited October 30, 2016 by Chippy

[Chippy]

 

I'm hoping volourns comment was satire? Sounds like it...

If not... Here we go again. Round 2638 (DING DING)

Meet Volourn. Things to know:

 

1: The EU are nazi SJW's.

2: The USA are nazi SJWs.

3: Canada is the land of nazi SJW's.

4: Volourn's parents were killed by nazi SJW's; which is ironic considering they were nazi SJW's too.

5: You are a nazi SJW.

 

I know Volourn is the princess of trolls at the COdex and bro-fisting him too often might seem suspect by SJW's - but I totally agree with him on this.  Hitler didn't limit himself to the political far right when he took over Austria:

 

 

And when you sees her suprise at the end, talking about how Obama wants people to report their neighbours for criticising him, you can see how that has been implemented:

 

 

So it worries me when Hillary Clinton talks about the state raising your kids (like Hitler said "Give me the children") and Obama talks about having a civilian national security force - you have to ask where they will be recruiting from, and what face will the Brown Shirts of the future take?.

 

@Bruce: so I answered your previous question as best as I could, but you didn't answer me on whether the mounting evidence against Hillary Clinton outweighed your perception of the flaws of Trump , am still wondering.

[Ben No.3]

Tell me chippy, have you ever read a good book on Nazi Germany? Not an accusation, I just want to know how in depth we can go.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Darkpriest]

It's not a good idea. I like freedom, but I also like cultural diversity and EU heritage. I think that a lot of it is being already lost, and even more would if we would become USE. It's not going to work, because of one simple reason. Which language would you use as the state one and why?

[Ben No.3]

"volo !!! This is rude even by your standards but it makes me laugh because its such an uncommon and irrelevant criticism to make about Germany

 

I dont know any mainstream commentators who still have a major issue with Germany in the year 2016 for the Holocaust.,...we tend to stop blaming bad decisions governments made after about 30 years or so especially when they are contrite

 

You Canadians hold strange grudges ?"

 

Yeah, I get it Bruce. bringing up Britian and Germany's poor behavior is 'rude'. But, bringing up US' history of slavery and Kanada's history of mistreatment of Indiains/Natives is fine and dandy. History is truth and must never be forgotten. I mean that is what your precious BLM says even though no BLM member has ever been a legal slave in the US. EVAR. But, there are people still living who had to live through Germany's misdeeds.

The one thing you are right about is that a lot of countries participated in some genocide throughout history, and they are not widely talked about. However, the holocaust was from what I perceive one of the worsts if not the worst genocides to ever happen. In the end, it was purley industrial. The humanity was brutally ripped from the victims. The camps were run like factories. Please have the decency not to joke about this. Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

It's not a good idea. I like freedom, but I also like cultural diversity and EU heritage. I think that a lot of it is being already lost, and even more would if we would become USE. It's not going to work, because of one simple reason. Which language would you use as the state one and why?

English, because it is already established as am international language in Europe. But look for example at Switzerland... They have three different languages in one country as well and are up and running.

Culturally speaking, the USE would be quite a challenge. But nothing that can not be done

[Meshugger]

 

"volo !!! This is rude even by your standards but it makes me laugh because its such an uncommon and irrelevant criticism to make about Germany

 

I dont know any mainstream commentators who still have a major issue with Germany in the year 2016 for the Holocaust.,...we tend to stop blaming bad decisions governments made after about 30 years or so especially when they are contrite

 

You Canadians hold strange grudges ?"

 

Yeah, I get it Bruce. bringing up Britian and Germany's poor behavior is 'rude'. But, bringing up US' history of slavery and Kanada's history of mistreatment of Indiains/Natives is fine and dandy. History is truth and must never be forgotten. I mean that is what your precious BLM says even though no BLM member has ever been a legal slave in the US. EVAR. But, there are people still living who had to live through Germany's misdeeds.

The one thing you are right about is that a lot of countries participated in some genocide throughout history, and they are not widely talked about. However, the holocaust was from what I perceive one of the worsts if not the worst genocides to ever happen. In the end, it was purley industrial. The humanity was brutally ripped from the victims. The camps were run like factories. Please have the decency not to joke about this.

 

 

 

Stay away from power you humorless little ****.

 

Oh my bad, Germans have no sense of humor after all. I forgot, sorry.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Meshugger

[Ben No.3]

Visit auschwitz

 

Try to make jokes

[Ben No.3]

Chippy,

please realise that the EU is not some strange power made up of mysterious men and women secretly ruling over Europe.

The EU is made up mainly of representatives chosen by the elected governments of the countries, parts are directly elected by the citizens.

 

The EU is about making deals. You give up certain rights in sovereignty, you gain certain rights in economical and security aspects. But you can not get a purley beneficial deal without giving up some sovereignty.

 

Please also realise that Britain used to be one of EU's most powerful members.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Meshugger]

Visit auschwitz

 

Try to make jokes

 

Pffft, using shame-tactics like an insulated mother to her children, what a shame. Thankfully the final arbiter on what is funny in the world is not in the hands of Germans.

[Ben No.3]

It's a very popular photo, but it's still effective.... What you see is a pile of glasses. The victims were forced to undress before being gased, and their belongings where piled up. So, every pair of glasses must have belonged to someone, right? Those are a lot of glasses, wouldn't you agree? Could you easily live with he possibility that your grandparents might have been directly responsible for the very existence of that pile?

[Volourn]

 "Could you easily live with he possibility that your grandparents might have been directly responsible for the very existence of that pile?"

 

I could. I believe in PERSONAL responsibility. I am not responsibie for what my parents did - good or bad. I am responsible for what *I* do - good or bad.

 

CAPICHE!?!