Current wisdom concerning Melee Wizards?

[prototype00]

I'm not planning a solo run, so I might be able to play him more like a rogue and attack from the backline.

 

I've ready your build and it seems solid, but I wonder why you never took the advised talents, like Veil and hardened veil or Savage attack. I'm also slightly confused about the frozen part of it, the secrets of rime was that solely for Kalakoth's freezing rake? Seems a somewhat limited usage of that talent.

 

Still, you completed the game solo and not me, so who am I to judge?

[grausch]

I'm not planning a solo run, so I might be able to play him more like a rogue and attack from the backline.

 

I've ready your build and it seems solid, but I wonder why you never took the advised talents, like Veil and hardened veil or Savage attack. I'm also slightly confused about the frozen part of it, the secrets of rime was that solely for Kalakoth's freezing rake? Seems a somewhat limited usage of that talent.

 

Still, you completed the game solo and not me, so who am I to judge?

 

Good questions. I welcome queries like this and I will try to answer them as best as I can. I did not really pre-plan the build this way. It evolved mostly as I was playing and realised that my playstyle would benefit from certain changes.

 

I did have Hardened Veil early on and used it to clear the phantoms in the Caed Nua throneroom. However, I subsequently discovered that I could do that section through stealth and would not need it. The deflection from Hardened Veil is excellent, but it does not really last long enough. I must have used it only as a "oh crap"-button once or twice in Act 2, but usually if I needed it, then I would ended up dying in any case. It looks good on paper, but I found that its application was a little limited.

 

I considered Savage Attack, but there were always other skills that seemed to be more worthwhile. Also, once I got high enough accuracy to consider this, the enemies were much tougher and I chose to focus on my defenses instead.

 

Secrets of the Rime was chosen purely to maximise Kalakoth's Freezing Rake and Ninagauth's Shadowflame. Opening up with a Shadowflame, paralysing all or most opponents and then finishing them off with Freezing Rake became necessary for the entire Concelhaut area and big parts of White March 2. Since this combo was so devastating, I chose Secrets of the Rime. You could also choose different spells and then a different focus, but to me it seemed like these were the best option - that is, until you walk into the Alpine Dragon cave...

 

Since you are playing in a team, you could adjust the build differently. Try different approaches and see what works for you. If you wish to hit really hard and are not concerned about attack speed, use the lower DEX, higher MIG and heavy armour. If you wish to go for a lightning fast hitter, you need the DEX and light armour and may need to decrease MIG. You could also go for a more balanced build if that works for you. The only thing I would recommend is high INT and decent PER. Wizards have low accuracy and every bit of accuracy helps with Act 2.

[prototype00]

I was wondering why your stats were like that! Most of the builds I play don't develop organically, and are just heading towards a certain end goal.

 

Sounds to me by the end of the game you were mostly playing a spell build (with Kalakoths and Ninagauths) with some melee? I'm going to see if I can just manage with the team and melee to more keep with the spirit of the build. 

 

Dex vs Per I am still undecided, would you really suggest dropping Might (even to 12?!) to get them up higher? I mean, yes, Interrupt is a good thing for this build, but you also need to do damage.

 

Had a question about Spell Mastery, I noticed that quite a few people choose Eldritch Aim as 1st level pick, I guess Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff isn't as popular (Eldritch Aim is more universal after all). But do you really cast Citzal's Spirit lance for every combat?

[grausch]

Yeah, when I started the game my only plan was to make a melee wizard. I had no idea how to actually build him...

 

I would guess that at least 80% of my kills came from melee. I only got the two Citzal's spells at the beginning of Act 3. Had I known how powerful this combo was, I would have gotten them much earlier and the percentage of melee kills would be closer to 95%. So yes, I cast Citzal's Spirit Lance and Citzal's Martial Power for every fight that looked like it needed it. Easy fights were handled with melee with just the Spell Mastery spells and my weapon and shield and the really tough fights were handled by nuking and keeping the shield for its deflection bonus.

 

If every fight was a normal fight (Citzal's combo) then I could do 4 fights before I needed to rest. Easy fights were in essence free fights since I used only the Spell Mastery Spells and difficult fights meant I needed to rest immediately thereafter.

 

The fights where I needed to use the Kalakoth's method were the following:

• Dragon fights (except for Cail the Silent)
• Radiant Spore
• Final two bounties
• The mercenaries outside Concelhaut's Keep - technically you can try and pull 1 or 2, but they have patrols that make this approach risky. I did pull several and killed them off individually or by using bottlenecks in the terrain, but whenever I saw any sign of trouble, I would start the nuking process.
• I avoided killing the monks in the Abbey of the Fallen Moon, but had I decided to kill them, I don't think the Citzal's approach would have worked. There are just too many of them, they just hit too damn hard and they tended to prone me pretty frequently.

Your primary damage buffs as a melee wizard will be Merciless Gaze, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion and Citzal's Martial Power. When you look at the combined effect of these 3 spells, you will notice that you really have a lot of leeway in choosing your stats since you get very decent boosts to your stats, your accuracy, your recovery speed and your defenses.

 

Early game buffs are a little different though. If you have a priest in your party, you can get +3 MIG from Holy Power, but his next decent buff for MIG only comes from Devotions for the Faithful (level 4) which is mid-game.  PER can be buffed indirectly through accuracy buffs and deflection debuffs for opponents and you get decent spells for these early game. Until you get Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, there is no real way to increase attack speed. Even then, it only speeds up the recovery portion and not the actual attack animations, so you do can not completely remove the penalty from low DEX. Since we are discussing MIG, DEX, and PER, I would rate them in the following order of importance for the early-game: 1. DEX; 2. MIG; 3. PER.

 

However, the above ranking does not consider your weapons or your playstyle. Concelhaut's Parastic already does very good damage, so perhaps you may be comfortable decreasing MIG and increasing PER. Eldritch Aim has a short duration, so you may not feel comfortable with low PER. Heavy armour has a slow recovery time, so perhaps you would rather hit hard and accurate and thus keep DEX at 10 and keep both PER and MIG at 16. Alternatively, you could go for light armour and want to hit as fast as possible reasoning that the extra healing from the staff will offset the lower DR. In that case, you may need to keep DEX at 16 and have either PER or MIG at 10.

 

So, as you can see above, it really depends on your playstyle, what your party composition looks like, how you approach battles, your role in the battle, what spells your supporting casters cast, etc. Also, a build that I may consider sub-optimal can be very optimal for someone else. So don't worry too much about your stat distribution now - as you progress through the game, your ideal stat distribution will probably change as well.

 

Regarding Spell Mastery - I guess most people choose Eldritch Aim since Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff is not quite as powerful late-game as some of the other weapon options. I did not use Parasitic Staff because I had a choice of several Superb or Legendary and even a Mythic weapon to choose from and I could then use these weapons together with Eldritch Aim and still have my full complement of spells available.

Edited October 6, 2016 by grausch

[prototype00]

Ah, this is all excellent advice! Thanks so much.

 

Yeah, when I started the game my only plan was to make a melee wizard. I had no idea how to actually build him...

 

I would guess that at least 80% of my kills came from melee. I only got the two Citzal's spells at the beginning of Act 3. Had I known how powerful this combo was, I would have gotten them much earlier and the percentage of melee kills would be closer to 95%. So yes, I cast Citzal's Spirit Lance and Citzal's Martial Power for every fight that looked like it needed it. Easy fights were handled with melee with just the Spell Mastery spells and my weapon and shield and the really tough fights were handled by nuking and keeping the shield for its deflection bonus.

Ah, that's good to hear, I know that there are some under-par concepts in Pillars, glad to hear this isn't one of them. Would you say if I have a party, the pre buffing isn't as important with them screening, or should I do so anyway then engage?

 

If every fight was a normal fight (Citzal's combo) then I could do 4 fights before I needed to rest. Easy fights were in essence free fights since I used only the Spell Mastery Spells and difficult fights meant I needed to rest immediately thereafter.

 

The fights where I needed to use the Kalakoth's method were the following:

• Dragon fights (except for Cail the Silent)
• Radiant Spore
• Final two bounties
• The mercenaries outside Concelhaut's Keep - technically you can try and pull 1 or 2, but they have patrols that make this approach risky. I did pull several and killed them off individually or by using bottlenecks in the terrain, but whenever I saw any sign of trouble, I would start the nuking process.
• I avoided killing the monks in the Abbey of the Fallen Moon, but had I decided to kill them, I don't think the Citzal's approach would have worked. There are just too many of them, they just hit too damn hard and they tended to prone me pretty frequently.

Your primary damage buffs as a melee wizard will be Merciless Gaze, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion and Citzal's Martial Power. When you look at the combined effect of these 3 spells, you will notice that you really have a lot of leeway in choosing your stats since you get very decent boosts to your stats, your accuracy, your recovery speed and your defences.

Fair enough, does Eldritch Aim not get added to your buffing rotation?

 

Early game buffs are a little different though. If you have a priest in your party, you can get +3 MIG from Holy Power, but his next decent buff for MIG only comes from Devotions for the Faithful (level 4) which is mid-game. PER can be buffed indirectly through accuracy buffs and deflection debuffs for opponents and you get decent spells for these early game. Until you get Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, there is no real way to increase attack speed. Even then, it only speeds up the recovery portion and not the actual attack animations, so you do can not completely remove the penalty from low DEX. Since we are discussing MIG, DEX, and PER, I would rate them in the following order of importance for the early-game: 1. DEX; 2. MIG; 3. PER.

How does Int figure in there just curious?

 

However, the above ranking does not consider your weapons or your playstyle. Concelhaut's Parastic already does very good damage, so perhaps you may be comfortable decreasing MIG and increasing PER. Eldritch Aim has a short duration, so you may not feel comfortable with low PER. Heavy armour has a slow recovery time, so perhaps you would rather hit hard and accurate and thus keep DEX at 10 and keep both PER and MIG at 16. Alternatively, you could go for light armour and want to hit as fast as possible reasoning that the extra healing from the staff will offset the lower DR. In that case, you may need to keep DEX at 16 and have either PER or MIG at 10.

 

So, as you can see above, it really depends on your playstyle, what your party composition looks like, how you approach battles, your role in the battle, what spells your supporting casters cast, etc. Also, a build that I may consider sub-optimal can be very optimal for someone else. So don't worry too much about your stat distribution now - as you progress through the game, your ideal stat distribution will probably change as well.

I was thinking I'd try playing like a melee Cipher or late game Spiritshift Druid. So let the tanks engage then skirt around the edges to apply a lot of damage. We'll see how that goes.

 

Regarding Spell Mastery - I guess most people choose Eldritch Aim since Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff is not quite as powerful late-game as some of the other weapon options. I did not use Parasitic Staff because I had a choice of several Superb or Legendary and even a Mythic weapon to choose from and I could then use these weapons together with Eldritch Aim and still have my full complement of spells available.

Yeah, that's a good point. I'll have all the 1st level spells for casting Concelhaut's staff and it does fall off in efficacy later, whereas Eldritch aim will be useful for the whole game.

 

Regarding non spell weapons, did you go Sword and Board or continue to leverage two handed Synergy with stuff like Abydon's Hammer? (So looking forward to finally having an MC built around using that!)

[grausch]

Ah, that's good to hear, I know that there are some under-par concepts in Pillars, glad to hear this isn't one of them. Would you say if I have a party, the pre buffing isn't as important with them screening, or should I do so anyway then engage?

Without pre-buffing the wizard is not such a strong meleee character. After he is buffed, he can take out most melee opponents quite easily. It depends on how you actually play the wizard. If you want to rush head-first into melee, then pre-buffing may be required. If you will attack from the second-row, then it probably isn't.

 

Fair enough, does Eldritch Aim not get added to your buffing rotation?

Eldritch Aim (+15 acc) does not stack with the accuracy bonus from Citzal's Martial Power (+20) and Citzal's also has a longer duration, thus it has no benefit use this if you are using Citzal's. I only realised it pretty late in the game...

 

How does Int figure in there just curious?

I was thinking that you already had decided on your INT and just needed to decide on DEX / PER. There are not any wizard spells that boost INT, so if playing solo you need all the INT you can get. Again, it depends on your playstyle, but I think INT is the most important attribute for a wizard. Don't really fret too much about it - your build looks like it will be pretty balanced and it is hard to go wrong with a balanced build.

 

I was thinking I'd try playing like a melee Cipher or late game Spiritshift Druid. So let the tanks engage then skirt around the edges to apply a lot of damage. We'll see how that goes.

It sounds like it could work and having flanking bonuses may negate the need for PER allowing you to put that elsewhere.

 

Yeah, that's a good point. I'll have all the 1st level spells for casting Concelhaut's staff and it does fall off in efficacy later, whereas Eldritch aim will be useful for the whole game.

 

Regarding non spell weapons, did you go Sword and Board or continue to leverage two handed Synergy with stuff like Abydon's Hammer? (So looking forward to finally having an MC built around using that!)

My wizard used Little Saviour or Aila Braccia once I had them and before that I used an Exceptional Small Shield. Weapons were always fast weapons and endgame weapons were Unlaboured Blade, Drawn in Spring or Steadfast. This changed depending on my needs, i.e. Steadfast for enemies that cause Terrified, Unlaboured Blade / Drawn in Spring easier fights where I did not need Citzal's.

 

You could used Abydon's Hammer as the +4 MIG is nice boost. It did have situational uses for me, but Citzal's was a better weapon for my Wizard. With the blast effect, I often found that by the time I killed one enemy, the other enemies were significantly weakened (Badly Wounded or Near Death). If I targeted the strongest enemy, I sometimes only needed to effectively kill one opponent to win the fight - all the others died from the blast. It means that fights will be over much quicker if you use Citzal's vs any other weapon. Of course, there are times when Abydon's Hammer or any other weapon can be useful - it really depends on the individual encounters, how you equip the rest of the team and how you approach your fights.

[prototype00]

So I was playing around with stats for a melee wizard (reach, not sword and board).

And I maxed (well 16 points) Mig, Int, Per and Dex by reducing con to 4. I kept Res at 10 for the concentration.

 

Is this madness? I figure you can always use that fast cast 2nd level spell that gives you 50 endurance to top yourself up.

[Raven Darkholme]

So I was playing around with stats for a melee wizard (reach, not sword and board).

And I maxed (well 16 points) Mig, Int, Per and Dex by reducing con to 4. I kept Res at 10 for the concentration.

 

Is this madness? I figure you can always use that fast cast 2nd level spell that gives you 50 endurance to top yourself up.

Solo or party?

For solo it would be risky cuz fort, but in a party it shouldn't matter.

[prototype00]

Oh, party, definitely. With a tank (Pallegina) and an off tank (Kana) standing in front of me.

 

Still, enemies cast spells and all that, and I didn't want a stray one just to off me, but I was comforted by the fact that since wizards have such low endurance anyway, you aren't losing out in very much?

Edited November 22, 2016 by prototype00

[Raven Darkholme]

If you only worry about hp, yeah you don't lose a lot.

The only reason Con has any value in this game is fortitude defense, remember you gain hp on every level up.

[Boeroer]

It's also good for classes which have very high endurance and health, like barb and monk, it gives you a percentage based bonus and the high base value leads to a lot more endurance and health if you look at the flat numbers. But on a wizard with that whimpy base endurance it hardly matters if you have 10 or 5 CON - besides of the fortitude defense of course like Raven said.

[prototype00]

Yeah, I'm finding on Hard, even if I have 100hp as a wizard, I also don't have all the other advantages Tanks have, so enemies take me apart quite quickly even with decent HP. Have to play smart for now.

[Boeroer]

You need the proper self buffs, like Arcane (Hardened) Veil + Wizard's Double. This setup alone leads to +115 deflection which will make you unhitable for the duration that early in the game. Note that grazes don't end Wizard's Double.

[prototype00]

Hmm, just picked up Tidefall (character is specced for two handed so it is good) but I still get the feeling that Concelhauts staff is better?

 

I think it's the extra crits I am getting due to the bonus accuracy?

 

Anyway Tidefall is good for clearing out the trash mobs so not complaining, but is this supposed to be the case?

[Boeroer]

It should do better dmg than Concelhaut's Staff. It has wounding and can have a lash. Both alone (and combined) will do more damage than the staff which can't be enchanted.

But the staff has higher base damage and therefore also drains more endurance for you. It also works better with Savage Attack and other DMG mods for that reason, but still Tidefall should do more damage. Tidefall's wounding makes it one of the best DPS weapons, but wounding damage doesn't drain endurance. And it doesn't feel that powerful if you have high INT, because then the wounding dmg gets spread out over a long period of time. If you have low INT, it behaves more like an elemental lash.

 

The staff is exceptional (+8 ACC), the great sword is superb (+12). So the sword should give you more ACC. If you have weapon focus soldier that is.

[prototype00]

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. My 18 Int wizard never sees those wounding procs! (And I don't have a lash on it yet, so that probably doesn't help)

 

I'll have to check something when I get home, I thought Concelhaut's staff had an additional spell accuracy bonus on top of everything?

[Boeroer]

That would be new to me. As far as I know it summons an exceptional staff with +8 ACC. There are summoned weapons which scale with level (Long Pain for example) but I don't think the wizard's weapons do this.

 

Once you can cast Citzal's Spirit Lance you can throw away Tidefall.  

[Aranduin]

That would be new to me. As far as I know it summons an exceptional staff with +8 ACC. There are summoned weapons which scale with level (Long Pain for example) but I don't think the wizard's weapons do this.

 

Once you can cast Citzal's Spirit Lance you can throw away Tidefall.

 

I am running now a solo PotD and my Wizard use Tidefall for clean trash mobs or finish some fights when you dont need more summon weapon (or dont have more spells).

I like Tidefall, I have Burning Lash and Scion of Flame for a bit more damage. I have too the Weapon Focus: Soldier (for Tidefall, souldbound weapons and summon weapons).

 

 

Edit: For try fix bad grammar. I am not native English sorry

Edited December 5, 2016 by Aranduin

[Boeroer]

Yes - sounds good.

[dgray62]

I have never played a melee wizard, only the back row wood elf ranged types. I am very intrigued by this idea, and the Citzal spells sound extremely powerful. But I am reluctant to pursue this build as it sounds like you would have to rest extremely often. Arcane veil, if remember correctly, is only two uses per rest, and you never get the Citzal spells per encounter, right? Do you save this combo for the tougher fights? Otherwise, it seems you'd have to rest very often. Any tips on how to play melee wizards would be greatly appreciated.

[Boeroer]

Actually, using summoned weapons + defensive buffs leads to lesser rests than using damaging spells all the time instead. You don't need to use Arcane Veil in every fight. You will have things like Wizard's Double for example which can be very effective against weaker trashmobs if you combine it with a shield. It will last forever if you only get grazed.

All in all I'dI'd say it doesn't lead to more resting. Also because you normally don't get targeted as much as when you are a squishy back row wizard. In my playthroughs the reason I rest is low health, not spells.

[dgray62]

Thanks for the tips, Boeroer. I seem to recall that in another thread you indicated that casting Infuse With Vital Essence at the end of a battle can help ameliorate the health issue. It seems like it would be a great candidate for Spell Mastery. How does the following stat spread look for a wizard that typically start out a battle in the back row, but wade in after buffing up for more challenging battles: 15/8/10/18/19/8? I am reluctant to go below 8 for CON and RES for a character that would be on the front lines. Higher DEX would be nice, as discussed above, but I figure that once I have DAoM this would not be a problem, and it seems that having higher PER would be more important overall. I want MIG to be high, but there are so many ways to boost MIG it seems that 15 would be fine. I don't want to skimp on INT, as I'd like the Blast range and buff durations to be as large as possible.

[Raven Darkholme]

I wouldn't master Vital Essence, since it's a very easy to create potion, rather master something that's offensive, like Alacrity, since you can use that every fight, while you need Vit Essence only when hp is low.

[dgray62]

I would definitely master DAoM when reaching level 13. My question is, which second level spell would be best to master at level 11. My inclination would be to go for an offensive spell like Combusting Wounds (which is fixed in 3.05, right?) or Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon. But if you can really top of your health by casting Vit Essence at the end of a battle (I haven't tried this, but I recall reading this in one of the forums), it seems like it would be indispensable, especially if you are using spells or abilities that drain endurance, such as DAoM or Dangerous Implements.

[Dr <3]

Imho all the spells you thought are good. Combusting wounds for great dmg, draining syphon do good dmg and heals, vit essence remove the problem of resting until you doesn't fight a boss.

If you have good str and cast it near the end of the fight it will heal you between 30% and 50% of your total health (depends on your constitition). I like to master that on melee wizards, is a spell you can easily cast every fight, but just once.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Dr <3