[Request Class Build] Assassin melee rogue

[Phenomenum]

Nice topic) Seems some people got new ideas about using rogue. Me too. And some interesting and kindly people around - i like it. Sorry for offtop, but i new in this forums and glad to see how conversations going on. Grazie ragazzi)

[Dr <3]

Yes, you can swap at istant speed, go stealth, change again. In fact the mace is a bit underwhelming for a rogue, so is fine use it in second weapon slot just for the invis

[QuiteGoneJin]

Ty, any tips on maximizing stealth, sometimes it seems it breaks faster than other times. 

[Phenomenum]

Also i recall Niri, the visitor in Caed Nua, at early levels usually - if we consider helping, she gave cape with Escape spell holding 1 per encounter. Then get Escape ability and we have 2 Escapes per fight. It's very powerful, since in 3.03 Escape grants additional +25 deflection.

[Phenomenum]

As for stealth, is very strange system for me. It very depend of enemies level - for example, with stealth 7 you can walkin' around troll, even hit him and he don't detecting you. Other foes, higher level, detect you early, in distance about 3-4 meters away.

It's my own opinion, based on game experience, but i think you can walk closely to enemy, even hit him and still undetected, if your stealth level = enemy level + 2.

But it's opinion, not fact.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Phenomenum

[QuiteGoneJin]

Should I approach the enemies with just my rogue and hit them and run and hope to not die or go in with whole group and hope to get off my alpha before I become detected?

[DreamWayfarer]

Should I approach the enemies with just my rogue and hit them and run and hope to not die or go in with whole group and hope to get off my alpha before I become detected?

I like split approaches whenever possible. Unstealth your tankier characters first to draw attention and flank with the Rogue and if possible someone else, like a Monk or damage-dealing Fighter. This way you can save your Rogue more easily after your two backstabs.

[Loren Tyr]

Yeah, Backstab + special attacks still has some issues. Doesn't work with Invisibility (I think the ability technically breaks the invisibility slightly before the attack occurs, so the character isn't invisible anymore by the time it lands) and only on the second attack of an ability when dual-wielding (something to do with the fact that the off-hand actually attacks first). On auto-attack it works fine now though, you get two backstabs from both stealth and invisibility (there were some issues with this on earlier versions), and you at least get one from a Strike ability from stealth.

 

As far as I can tell that last one is actually the same issue as with Invisibility, you technically break stealth due to using the ability just before the actual attack. However, with stealth you still get one backstab if an attack was ordered while stealthed, even if you become visible before it actually lands. This works more generally: if you are stealthed, click to attack an enemy, become visible en route to that enemy, you do get a Backstab (but not a second one). So even if you don't have any stealth skill at all, you can still get at least one Backstab hit in. Note that this still works if you're the one ending the stealth mode.

 

Anyway, one kind of build I rather like is a more thuggish, more defensive rogue. With heavy armour (I use Brigandine, Plate doesn't really fit a rogue I feel), Sabre + Shield, shield talent, etc. He's a bit slower and less emphasis on the DPS, but a lot sturdier as well so you can use him more in the frontline or to go deeper into the melee to take care of a priority target. Use him to open combat as well with a Backstab, though'd get a tank with good stealth nearby to and ready to go to keep thinks in check (or alternatively, close in with the high stealth tank and the rogue, and have the tank draw the first attention just before the rogue gets to work). Backstab and the other rogue +X% damage mean that even defensively build, he still has a good damage output. If you bump deflection enough you can also add in Riposte, but you'd really need potions to make that work properly which has no synergy with the Backstab opener, so I wouldn't go with both Backstab and Riposte.

 

Deep Wounds does (base) 3 damage per three seconds (for 10 sec) by the way, so that's (base) 10 total (and more with good MIG and/or INT). Doesn't stack, though.

 

@Boeroer: Backstab won't play nice with Novice's Suffering I'm afraid, no. The +X damage is just subject to Might, no other +X% damage modifiers at all. 

[Boeroer]

@DreamWayfarer & QuiteGoneJin: That's a good way. Going in with your rogue alone usually leads to the knockout of the rogue because after backstabbing and unstealthing as the only person in sight he will be attacked by everyone. That includes archers and casters - you can't escape them like you can escape melee opponents. So sending in your sturdy distraction forces first is a good thing like DreamWayfarer suggested.

 

@Loren Tyr: about Nov. Suffering: I guessed so. But since Backstab is so different I thought maybe it's an exception. Sadly not. Thanks for clearing that up. And the stuff about backstab, too.

 

@Phenomenum: yeah, this is a civilized, cosy subforum with great people.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

All of that, i'll write about this bugs with Backstab in properly branch of forums, with saves. Maybe anyone there could support me?

[Loren Tyr]

I actually already did that during the 3.03 beta, though it didn't get picked up at the time. The thread is here: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/87456-303-backstab-from-shadowing-beyond/?hl=backstab. Might be a good idea to put a new thread in the main tech forum though, just to bring it back to the forefront and add further details. And indeed, putting some saves in so they can easily verify themselves could help speed things along. I'll also see if I this weekend can dig a bit into the code to locate the underlying causes.

[Phenomenum]

Ok, i ready do this tomorrow. Ups... time is relative for all of us.

I start topic, describe problem, attach saves, and then you all should see it. Anyway, that's not prevent him to ignore all reports...like they did a while before

[QuiteGoneJin]

Ugh, I cant do it, the mobility just doesnt work like it should and I go splat so easily. You know, I loved this game, but I just cant enjoy melee in it. I like mobility and cool actives, not autoing for crits forever. I dont like the monk cause I cant find a balance where I take damage to use wounds and not die, its either I die or I take no damage and never get my abilities off. Rogue goes splat, melee druid is cool but is a one trick that gets boring after a while.  

 

My first palythrough was a ranged cipher, second a carnage barb. Maybe a warrior will be ok, usually not a fighter fan but I'm so tired of trying to make a good melee and I haven't seen the WM2 content. 

[DreamWayfarer]

Ugh, I cant do it, the mobility just doesnt work like it should and I go splat so easily. You know, I loved this game, but I just cant enjoy melee in it. I like mobility and cool actives, not autoing for crits forever. I dont like the monk cause I cant find a balance where I take damage to use wounds and not die, its either I die or I take no damage and never get my abilities off. Rogue goes splat, melee druid is cool but is a one trick that gets boring after a while.

Have you tried my melee Wizard suggestion on page 1? Lots of cool tricks to choose from, specially if you and Aloth (the wizard companion) pick different spells at level up and teach them to one another.

 

As for Rogue, did you dump defensive stats? That could be why you are dying a lot, or maybe you are focusing too much on your main and forgetting to position the team properly.

Edited August 19, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[QuiteGoneJin]

I don't like having to stop and buff myself with 4-5 spells before entering combat, tried the melee wizard but didn't like it for that reason. 

Edited August 19, 2016 by QuiteGoneJin

[Climhazzard]

Ugh, I cant do it, the mobility just doesnt work like it should and I go splat so easily. You know, I loved this game, but I just cant enjoy melee in it. I like mobility and cool actives, not autoing for crits forever. I dont like the monk cause I cant find a balance where I take damage to use wounds and not die, its either I die or I take no damage and never get my abilities off. Rogue goes splat, melee druid is cool but is a one trick that gets boring after a while.  

 

My first palythrough was a ranged cipher, second a carnage barb. Maybe a warrior will be ok, usually not a fighter fan but I'm so tired of trying to make a good melee and I haven't seen the WM2 content. 

 

 

You need to build monks to regen damage instead of deflect it so you can get plenty of wounds without dying, try the following...

 

Moon Godlike, max might.  Might increases your self healing as well as your damage.  Level up survival for more healing received after camping (always camp before tough fights).

 

Level 1: Torment's reach

Level 2: Veteran's recovery 

 

You're now basically wolverine but we'll continue.

 

Level 3: Force of Anguish... It's fun and awesome.

Level 4: Peasant weapon focus: So it's easier to strike your enemies

 

Level 5: Turning wheel, long stride, or swift strikes (I prefer Turning wheel and building to receive lots of wounds)

Level 6: Hold the Line: My reasoning for this is simple, it increases frontline control while making another enemy target your monk so you get wounds more reliably

 

Level 7: Duality of Mortal Presence: Set to "other defenses" to prevent stuns, knockdowns, etc.

Level 8: Vulnerable attack: Will increase your damage quite a bit

 

Level 9: Enervating Blows:  Synergizes well with Force of Anguish and Apprentice sneak attack

Level 10: Lesser wounds: This synergizes very well with wound spending builds, as well as Iron wheel and Turning wheel...  I can't hardly understand why people don't recommend it.  Level 10 because you'll get Iron wheel at 11.

 

Level 11:  Iron wheel:  Absolutely essential and amazing monk skill, as much survival as you need when you need it.  Take at 13 if you're finding the game easy at level 10.

Level 12:  Two weapon style:  Attack and enervate faster.

 

Level 13:  Flagellant's path:  Such a fun ability, vital if you want an active mobile monk, which is why I might recommend you take it at 11 instead of 13 if you're finding the game isn't to hard at level 10.

Level 14:  Apprentice sneak attack: Synergizes with enervating blows and force of anguish

 

Level 15:  Whatever floats your boat: I like the long pain

Level 16:  Whatever floats your boat: Usually I take outlander's frenzy, if you use it at the start of battle you can accumulate wounds faster (it lowers deflection), if you use it after the long pain you can blow stuff up from range easier.

 

Some parts of this build don't really jive, like turning wheel and enervating blows don't work with the long pain, but everything before level 15 is perfect, I just like the long pain for the flexibility it gives the build.   The only things that are essential are veteran's recovery, torment's reach, duality of mortal presence, and iron wheel, the rest is arguable, but if you're having problems getting enough wounds I recommend lesser wounds and hold the line, and put your monk in the front!  If you play on normal or easy you might have trouble getting wounds period, I don't know.  One trick is to run your team in stealth and to unstealth your monk first so he's targeted by every enemy at the start, moon godlike will negate any of the damage received and he'll start the battle with 10 wounds.

 

Also if you do the first quest for the Knights of the Crucible you'll get access to their vendor, there you can buy a set of boots called "Shod In Faith", these are so amazing for low deflection builds that survive by regenerating health that they might as well be considered an essential item.  If you don't take long stride, then Maneha's armor is really nice for the healing bonus and move speed.  

 

Anyways, I guess this was a rogue thread, but I just tried to derail it with my monk worshiping...  sorry about that.

 

Oh one more thing, monk tip, use disengagement attacks to get wounds when you don't have any.  Literally just run by enemies to wherever you want to use torment's reach or force of anguish, and you'll have enough wounds to use them by the time you arrive at your destination.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Climhazzard

[Phenomenum]

Ugh, I cant do it, the mobility just doesnt work like it should and I go splat so easily.

 

I told you about that from the beginning - you will die often without micro and proper positioning, about all flashy abilities that can do nothing without microing. About rogues in this game work differently. Its maybe hardest class for playing, need a lot of care, need party to work for them. And i had warned you about this.

[Phenomenum]

Ugh, I cant do it, the mobility just doesnt work like it should and I go splat so easily.

 

I told you about that from the beginning - you will die often without micro and proper positioning, about all flashy abilities that can do nothing without microing. About rogues in this game work differently. Its maybe hardest class for playing, need a lot of care, need party to work for them. And i warned you about this.

[Boeroer]

@Climhazzard: I think you may have a misconception about Hold the Line and engagement there. Engagement alone doesn't encourage enemies to attack you - only indirectly if they can't reach another target without disengaging because if they leave they could get punished a bit. But if you're not alone on the front line no enemy will turn towards you only because you engage him. But maybe you meant that.

 

I never had problems getting wounds though. The monk's deflecrion usually is not too high. Same with his DR. Most enemies like to attack him if he is first in line. So for me Hold the Line would be a waste. But if it works better for you with it then why not?

 

Taking Veteran's Recovery is good advice. Another thing is Moon Godlike. Especially in the early game when it's hardest the healing of Silver Tide helps a lot. Silver Tide plus monk is a great combo and is also a good RP choice for the White March II.

 

About the rogue: the theme was "hit and run", not "hit and die".

As long as your rogue is too squishy to survive direct melee confrontation you can always play him as a ranged rogue. In the early game they are way squishier than later on when they have some nice abilities and equipment. Shooting from afar with a bow - for example Borresaine which also stuns on crit or with an arbalest in the very early game - is a nice way for a "planned melee" rogue to contribute. And there's also no rule that forbids you to give a rogue Veteran's Recovery and a thick armor. Actually, with high MIG, INT, Veteran's Rwcovery and a fat armor he can hold his ground long enough. But getting surrounded is bad.

So engaging with tanks first is mandatory for a normal rogue. He can shoot an alpha strike from a gun and then start to move towards a single standing foe (usually an archer or caster). You can use Escape to phase towards enemies. This also gives you +25 deflection. But if you want to backstab you have to get near. So either you have to be more patient at the start of an encounter or you make him more tanky with self healing and even more deflection until you get things like Shadowing Beyond and a weapon which causes stun or prone on crit. This helps a lot with survivability.

The other good option is so disable foes with a wizard or druid or cipher before sending in the rogue and when he gets targeted.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[Climhazzard]

My monk usually has the lowest deflection of all my team members, just so pesky ranged enemies target her rather than my wizard, ranger, or priest.

 

On PotD at least there are more than enough enemies flying around that Hold the Line will help me grab more than one, I take it for all my frontliners to help with battlefield control, seems to work effectively to me, most enemies won't try to disengage if you block their path as well as engage them, Monks and Vampyr being exceptions.

 

It's not really that I don't get enough wounds, just that my build is a wounds spender that benefits from having capped wounds, so more is always better, and the OP mentioned he had trouble with making a monk that could both live and acquire wounds...  though just moon godlike + veteran's recovery + shod in faith would probably alleviate any monk troubles he has. 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Climhazzard

[Boeroer]

Fair enough.

[Climhazzard]

Been trying to figure out how to fit in Escape, coordinated positioning, and shadowstep, for maximum mobility options....  any thoughts on using savage attack instead of reckless assualt?  Rogue starts out with high accuracy and it'd give you another ability pick, plus better deflection...

 

Something like...

 

Abilities:

 

Coordinated Positioning

Crippling strike

Deathblows

Dirty Fighting

Escape

Smoke Cloud

Persistent Distraction

Shadow Step

 

Talents: 

 

Weapon Focus Ruffian

Savage attack

Two weapon style

Shadowing Beyond

Veteran's Recovery

Vicious Fighting

Vulnerable attack

Superior Deflection

 

This would give you plenty of options for moving around and escaping, and with a ring of deflection you'd get a higher deflection score than my monk which may or may not prevent you from being targeted by every ranged mob in site.  Still ultimately all you're doing is poking butts (or shooting them), with extra mobility to reach them, I'm not really sure how to alleviate that.  I guess you pack around scrolls and a blunderbuss to go along with your daggers/swords?

 

All the active abilities seem to have limited usefulness, I almost feel like just killing the enemies before they kill you will be just as good, the main benefit may possibly just be having slightly higher deflection so you're not a target for everything in sight.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Climhazzard

[DreamWayfarer]

Escape is a somewhat nice offensive ability for a backstab rogue because it does not break stealth (not sure about invisibility), allowing you to to open combat by backstabbing the enemy backline without much effort, even against groups too big to be flanked.

 

A Rogue without backstab does not benefit from that, but if you pile up enough mobility on a Heart Orlan with a CC on crit weapon you could have a very flexible way of annoying foes. But since you seem to be using a dual-wielding rogue not focused on crits, I see little reason to not trade some mobility for more full attacks.

Edited August 20, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Boeroer]

I would neither take Savage Attack nor Vulnerable Attach for a backstabbing rogue. Both don't increase your damage a lot compared to Sneak, Deathblows and Backstab. I would use Fast Runner and/or Graceful Retreat instead so I can get away without getting punished and without using Escape - leavin that for diving in with +25 deflection instead of diving out. Deflection against diseng. attacks would be at +57. Maybe enough to make even Riposte worthwhile (strike back while disengaging).

 

Persistent Distraction only works if you trigger the flanking affliction - it can be good if you flank and makes fleeing easier - you don't need the fuzz I talked about then. But it doesn't work if you want to reach the back line on your own, destroy a caster quickly and retreat. But when flanking a lot it's def. a good pick - esp. if you run very fast because then you can eat a lot of diseng. attacks very quickly without noticing and *bam* you're dead.

 

Smoke Cloud may be a great way to flee, too. *Pouf* and engagement is gone.

 

I also think that a more defensive build with Vet. Recovery and Sup. Deflection is better than using the perfect glass cannon... who kisses the ground all the time.

 

I still think for a hit and run approach Envenomed Strike and Deep Wounds are great picks - maybe even Runner's Wounding Shot (also works for melee). You can leave after a hefty backstab and the target will still die after some secs while you target the next.

 

Using a scroll of Binding Web with a stab helm also seems to be a great way to kill stuck enemies while zipping around like a ball lightning.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[Loren Tyr]

Definitely Runner's Wounding Shot, it's very good on Rogues with their plethora of +X% damage effects. Especially on Backstab, of course (though be careful of the 'ability' + Invisibility Backstab bug, that obviously affects Wounding Shot as well). Although it is computed after DR, with the high per-hit a rogue can do, especially with Backstab, you can punch through a lot of DR and still have a sizeable amount of net damage. So another 80% of that damage (or more, it gets modified by Might; at 18 Might RWS does (almost) 100% of damage) packs a real big punch. So if you're seeing the nice big numbers you get with a Sneak Attack/Deathblows/Backstab and think "hmm, I'd like to double that", Runner's Wounding Shot will do you nicely .

 

Edit: just to give a nice illustration, a simple Fine Arquebus + Lash + Runner's Wounding Shot, with Backstab+Sneak+Crit hit against Plate Armour: 106 Pierce damage, 25.8 Burn damage and 100.1 Raw DOT... gotta love those numbers  . A pity it can't work from Invisibility, I hope they implement the fix I proposed.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Loren Tyr