ICTY exonerates Milosevic of all charges

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

The Holocaust took a huge amount of Hitler's desperately needed wartime resources. The allies knew all about it. To believe that Hitler somehow didn't you have to be completely delusional.

 

That's not what he said at all.  He is talking about proving something in a court of law.  Chillax.

 

"You could make a very strong case that Hitler was not aware of the Holocaust and that he never gave any direct orders." Learn to read historian.

[Gorgon]

The context is 'proven in a court of law'. Hitler could have won that case is what I'm saying. Unless you insist that the guy who was in charge bears responsibility nomatter what, this is where the comparison with Milosovic comes in.  

[BruceVC]

 

"You could make a very strong case that Hitler was not aware of the Holocaust and that he never gave any direct orders." Learn to read historian.

 

 In the historical movie Conspiracy Hitler was not in the actual meeting where top Nazis like Eichmann agreed on the final solution so for argument sake lets say you right and Hitler didnt give direct orders

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266425/

 

 

Its irrelevant to the actual criticism that people have and that is about the Holocaust and the genocide the Nazis attempted. Hitler would have still been charged with numerous war crimes. So for me whether Hitler actually said " kill all the Jews " is not the point as most of the top Nazis were going to charged with war crimes for various offenses

 

This applies to Milosevic and the crimes committed by Serbia in places like Bosnia and Kosovo, of course the Serbs should'nt be compared to the Nazis. Thats unfair but they did commit certain crimes against the Croats and Bosniaks and Milosevic made no effort to control, for example,  how Serbian paramilitaries behaved, he deserved to be charged in the Hague because he had responsibility as leader of Serbia 

 

Its not a mystery?

[Wrath of Dagon]

@Gorgon There's no way he could've shown he didn't know about it. Milosevic wasn't in charge of the Bosnian Serbs, and the court records show he was opposed to them in many instances.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Volourn]

"There's no way he could've shown he didn't know about it."

 

I don't know how the world court works but in most modern courts, the defendant doesn't have to 'prove' anything. That is the prosecution's job.

[Wrath of Dagon]

And it would be very easy to show that he did. But that's not even what Gorgon said, he said "you could make a very strong case".

[Hurlshort]

 

 

The Holocaust took a huge amount of Hitler's desperately needed wartime resources. The allies knew all about it. To believe that Hitler somehow didn't you have to be completely delusional.

 

That's not what he said at all.  He is talking about proving something in a court of law.  Chillax.

 

"You could make a very strong case that Hitler was not aware of the Holocaust and that he never gave any direct orders." Learn to read historian.

 

 

Feel free to apologize for this.  

 

Or, you know, just keep being abrasive.  

[Wrath of Dagon]

What do you teach in your history class Hurlshot? "We aren't sure how deeply Hitler was involved in the Holocaust"? "No one is sure if Stalin knew about the Gulags"?

Edited August 6, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Hurlshort]

Abrasive it is then.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Pot kettle black.

[Hurlshort]

Pot kettle black.

I am rubber, you are glue?

[BruceVC]

Pot kettle black.

Oh thats rich coming from you Hiro 

[Hurlshort]

I am sure there are plenty of bad adjectives to describe me, but I don't think abrasive is the most fitting. *shrug*

[Zoraptor]

What do you teach in your history class Hurlshot? "We aren't sure how deeply Hitler was involved in the Holocaust"? "No one is sure if Stalin knew about the Gulags"?

 

The correct analogy would be whether Stalin ordered the 'holodomor' famine, not the gulags.

 

Thing about Nazi Germany was that it was horrendously inefficient and obfuscated despite their reputation for efficiency- even their air force had two parallel 'armies' associated with it, for example. The bureaucracy itself was efficient enough, but there were many multiple competing layers so it's possible that Hitler wouldn't know. And while the nazis tended to document pretty much everything there still isn't a smoking gun that Hitler ordered the holocaust and that could mean no conviction for that in a civilian trial. Even that hardly matters though, there was plenty of stuff he was clearly and provably guilty of besides that and his best chance at any trial would have been insanity plea or inability to stand trial, not an acquittal.

 

But in any case the Nurnburg tribunals- which were where he actually would have been on trial, assuming the Russians allowed it- were military and required less proof than civilian ones. If Keitel and Jodl were found guilty there then there's no doubt at all that Hitler would have been too.

[HoonDing]

Considering who was present at Wannsee conference, it's nigh impossible Hitler didn't know.

[Drowsy Emperor]

"There's no way he could've shown he didn't know about it."

 

I don't know how the world court works but in most modern courts, the defendant doesn't have to 'prove' anything. That is the prosecution's job.

 

That's true, but most political courts have the inquisitorial logic that you're presumed guilty until you somehow prove your innocence. The idea of course, is to make that impossible for the defendant.

 

I actually watched dozens of hours of the Milosevic trial up until his death in the Hague and the panel of judges was extremely biased and obstructive towards him from the start. They resented and perhaps feared the fact that as someone who completed law studies and had the benefit of first hand knowledge of the events at hand (that they did not have and could never catch up on) he could handle his own defense better than they could do the "prosecuting and judging" part, so they tried to force a lawyer on him at every juncture.

 

They also showed extreme favoritism towards the prosecution even at embarrassing moments such as when prosecution witnesses revealed they had been blackmailed, bribed or otherwise pressured to give a particular testimony, or even worse didn't even know what they were testifying to and just signed testimonies written by the prosecution itself.

 

It was occasionally hilarious to see witnesses flat out denying they said something from their written testimony only to eventually being cornered by Milosevic in cross examination to admitting they just "signed what they were told to sign".

 

In normal circumstances the case would have been thrown out entirely after such a scandal, but for the purposes of manufacturing guilt, the show had to go on.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Hiro Protagonist]

I am rubber, you are glue?

 

No, I'm not glue. Good to see you're taking this so serious. Internet business is serious business.

[Orogun01]

 

I am rubber, you are glue?

 

No, I'm not glue. Good to see you're taking this so serious. Internet business is serious business.

 

Are you an adhesive of some different sort then?

[Hiro Protagonist]

Are you an adhesive of some different sort then?

 

You'd have to ask Hurlshot that question.

[Hurlshort]

I did some research, and Hiro is an adhesive epoxy. It has a resin and a hardening agent as its base, which makes the most sense, I am sure we can all agree.

 

I am just a standard rubber band, a bit stretched out and with a couple weeks spots where I have been exposed to too much heat. But I've been places, man.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I did some research, and Hiro is an adhesive epoxy. It has a resin and a hardening agent as its base, which makes the most sense, I am sure we can all agree.

 

I am just a standard rubber band, a bit stretched out and with a couple weeks spots where I have been exposed to too much heat. But I've been places, man.

 

Ah, this is not about me even though you'd like it to be. Not everything is about me Hurlshot. tsk tsk.

 

And yeah, I've been places too. All around the world. 

[Hurlshort]

Is it about Hitler? He is more of a solvent than rubber or glue.

[Hiro Protagonist]

You're the history teacher. You tell us.

[Hurlshort]

I just did.

[Orogun01]

Is it about Hitler? He is more of a solvent than rubber or glue.

What about Caesar? Surely he is not as acidic as they make him seem.