Dallas Sniper Shootings

[BruceVC]

 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/21/us/miami-officer-involved-shooting/index.html

 

...

OK. What the hell is with police in USA?

This is not the first time I read about police showing to a potential suicide and they straight up kill the guy. 

This is not how you help a suicidal person!

 

They can't commit suicide if they're killed.

 

Guys no need for outrage, the article clearly says " it was an accident " 

 

So lets move one about this one...accidents happen 

[Hurlshort]

We do not need to move on, because questions need to be answered about why there was an assault rifle pointed anywhere near an autistic man with a toy fire engine and his behavioral therapist.  There seems to be multiple breakdowns here.  Pulling the trigger may have been an accident, and the officer will likely lose his job for that.  But police are subject to hundreds of training hours every year, and the way this entire situation developed points to some serious flaws in that entire process.

[Malcador]

Cop using a rifle already shows he escalated things in his head too far.

[BruceVC]

We do not need to move on, because questions need to be answered about why there was an assault rifle pointed anywhere near an autistic man with a toy fire engine and his behavioral therapist.  There seems to be multiple breakdowns here.  Pulling the trigger may have been an accident, and the officer will likely lose his job for that.  But police are subject to hundreds of training hours every year, and the way this entire situation developed points to some serious flaws in that entire process.

I still think you need to move on....you wont like the answers 

[Malcador]

Well moving on won't fix anything

[BruceVC]

Well moving on won't fix anything

But is that the intention ....to fix it

 

Malc trust me, sometimes its best just to move on in life 

[Drowsy Emperor]

Takes trolling to a whole new level.

[Gromnir]

We do not need to move on, because questions need to be answered about why there was an assault rifle pointed anywhere near an autistic man with a toy fire engine and his behavioral therapist.  There seems to be multiple breakdowns here.  Pulling the trigger may have been an accident, and the officer will likely lose his job for that.  But police are subject to hundreds of training hours every year, and the way this entire situation developed points to some serious flaws in that entire process.

am knowing it is gauche to quote self.  

 

"cops is anticipating violence when dealing with suspects. cops should expect violence when dealing with suspects.  cops ain't supermen.  cops is people.  doesn't take a genius to realize how likely things is gonna get deadly and bloody when two civilians is confronting each other in a heated situation and at least one has a gun,  but we act surprised when a cop and a civilian gets in a confrontation and one ends up dead... and guess who is most likely to die?"  

 

wondering how much training is gonna be able to fix.  most o' us has had some kinda training for jobs.  training never prepares enough, which is why experience is so important.  *chuckle* not a job, but am recalling our first game experience for Cal.  real thing were so not like practice.  were not even like high school. first real game experience for Gromnir were a shock.  the speed and distractions were not replicated in our training.  when we try and recollect, our first game were all kinda a fuzzy blur-- a nightmarish blur. anybody got some kinda statistics regarding the % of cops who actual ever discharge a firearm in the line o' duty?  we has heard that the % is small, but we got no evidence to support.  regardless, am suspecting that no training in the world is gonna adequate replicate so as to avoid all mistakes.

 

am not saying additional cop training and alterations to basic cop practices is a waste.  quite the contrary given how we has argued for such.  unfortunately, there is always gonna be horrible mistakes.  got a tense situation and at least one person is armed with firearms.  unfortunate outcome should not be surprising.  we expect better from cops, but even so, we shouldn't be surprised when badness happens... and one horribly bad outcome is unlikely to be particular useful in identifying a need for widespread change.  find out this cop did a half dozen things that violated training?  sounds like in this instance, the cop made a terrible mistake.  for that kinda mistake to happen, we expect he violated lessons learned in training.

 

we likely do need different cop training.  we do need to see change.  even so, am having difficulty being surprised.  take any volatile encounter and put firearms in the hands o' at least one participants to the near inevitable fubar.  "the gun just went off," as if that has ever happened.  people with training often don't even recall pulling a trigger.  can't be surprised, can we?  make changes to training, but am never gonna be surprised, particularly in the USA where the chances o' any suspect being in possession o' a handgun is relative high. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Drowsy Emperor]

The US experience is not the only valid one. Cops in Europe don't necessarily expect violence, and they don't react in the same manner even when its likely. They certainly don't have the same military type "take no risks" attitude that standard US cops exhibit over and over again. That is reserved for special units and other more gun-go types that are only called in when things are serious.

 

British bobbies don't even carry firearms ffs. And there is a lot of crime in the UK.

 

There are accidents and abuse of power everywhere but they're a bit on the frequent side in the US media lately. One gets the feeling that the life of a cop is more valuable than a suspect, or even a random citizen in the US. That they are somehow *special*. That's the narrative I see all the time. And the attitude that breeds can't lead to anything good.

[Gromnir]

"They certainly don't have the same military type "take no risks" attitude that standard US cops exhibit over and over again. "

 

am chuckling at the rhetoric.

 

regardless, comparison is hardly analogous.  usa citizens have handguns and firearms... but specific handguns.  would be irresponsible to send cops out into the streets without firearms o' their own and the appropriate training to use such firearms.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

I'm really not sold on the idea that European cops as a whole are just better than US cops.  One, the US is made up of 50 states that are comparable to 50 European countries.  Two, where are the actual statistics here?  Is this stuff really all that common, or is it just getting a lot of media attention?  

 

It's tragic and it needs to be addressed, but trying to paint the entire US police as some sort of Wild West gunslingers is dishonest.

[BruceVC]

I'm really not sold on the idea that European cops as a whole are just better than US cops.  One, the US is made up of 50 states that are comparable to 50 European countries.  Two, where are the actual statistics here?  Is this stuff really all that common, or is it just getting a lot of media attention?  

 

It's tragic and it needs to be addressed, but trying to paint the entire US police as some sort of Wild West gunslingers is dishonest.

All European police are definitely not better than all US cops, I have had personal experience with both and overall I think US cops  are better trained and experienced as  they face more criminal activity   

 

But of course there are EU countries with excellent police that could be better than many US police but not all US police 

 

Germany, France and UK probably fit this profile 

[Drowsy Emperor]

"They certainly don't have the same military type "take no risks" attitude that standard US cops exhibit over and over again. "

 

am chuckling at the rhetoric.

 

regardless, comparison is hardly analogous.  usa citizens have handguns and firearms... but specific handguns.  would be irresponsible to send cops out into the streets without firearms o' their own and the appropriate training to use such firearms.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I'm really not sold on the idea that European cops as a whole are just better than US cops.  One, the US is made up of 50 states that are comparable to 50 European countries.  Two, where are the actual statistics here?  Is this stuff really all that common, or is it just getting a lot of media attention?  

 

It's tragic and it needs to be addressed, but trying to paint the entire US police as some sort of Wild West gunslingers is dishonest.

 

Do you have these sort of debates then?

 

http://www.thelocal.de/20160719/train-attack-bavaria-were-police-right-to-shoot-to-kill

 

Man chops up people on a train, debate opens up whether police had the right to shoot him.

 

Tell me honestly whether anyone would question the police shooting up a person in midst of committing a terrorist act in the US?

 

Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the response itself, I'm just pointing out that police violence is less socially acceptable (even when it perhaps should be).

[Wrath of Dagon]

Do you have these sort of debates then?

 

http://www.thelocal.de/20160719/train-attack-bavaria-were-police-right-to-shoot-to-kill

 

Man chops up people on a train, debate opens up whether police had the right to shoot him.

 

Tell me honestly whether anyone would question the police shooting up a person in midst of committing a terrorist act in the US?

 

Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the response itself, I'm just pointing out that police violence is less socially acceptable (even when it perhaps should be).

How does insanity in Europe prove that something is wrong with the US?

[HoonDing]

Yuroppan police beat you with sticks. Murrican police shoot you dead.

Chinese police do both.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Do you have these sort of debates then?

 

http://www.thelocal.de/20160719/train-attack-bavaria-were-police-right-to-shoot-to-kill

 

Man chops up people on a train, debate opens up whether police had the right to shoot him.

 

Tell me honestly whether anyone would question the police shooting up a person in midst of committing a terrorist act in the US?

 

Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the response itself, I'm just pointing out that police violence is less socially acceptable (even when it perhaps should be).

How does insanity in Europe prove that something is wrong with the US?

 

 

Maybe both sides are insane? I'm just pointing out that cop violence is less acceptable. Nothing more than that.

[Zoraptor]

I'm really not sold on the idea that European cops as a whole are just better than US cops.  One, the US is made up of 50 states that are comparable to 50 European countries.  Two, where are the actual statistics here?  Is this stuff really all that common, or is it just getting a lot of media attention? 

 

Such incidents are rare in other OECD countries. On a per million pop basis it isn't a pretty sight for the US- 0.15 here, slightly less similar in Australia, Germany ~0.05, UK it's below statistical accuracy. US though is above 3. So around 20x higher than Aus/ NZ. None of those other countries have unrestricted public access to firearms and police in the UK and NZ are habitually unarmed while it varies by jurisdiction in Germany/ Australia. By way of comparison murder rate by firearm are broadly comparable to those of fatal cop shootings, US is about 20x higher than Aus/ NZ. A large number of those shot by Australian/ New Zealand police are mentally ill though.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Gfted1]

Huh, how do you keep a billion people in line? Do we have any Chinese members? Are Chinese police heavy handed as intimated?

[Drowsy Emperor]

Chinese culture stresses conformism, not resisting authority and not raising a fuss. Crime is in a way an organized and accepted part of society. Not like in Japan, where they're an institution, but not far away either.

 

Guns are extremely hard to come by in most Asian countries. Violence is mostly committed by things like knives, bats and such.

 

In short they're an easier populace to keep in line.

[BruceVC]

Huh, how do you keep a billion people in line? Do we have any Chinese members? Are Chinese police heavy handed as intimated?

We have Asian American members and they would be descendants of Chinese people, I can ask them?

[Gromnir]

so again, what you is specific referencing is gun violence, eh?  am thinking we made that point earlier.  is not gonna be much o' a debate comparing the genuine excesses o' us cops to say the chinese or russian cops.  in spite of media control by state, and far less information o' brutality making its way outta the countries in question...

 

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/21-deaths-recorded-in-russian-police-custody-last-month-45368

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/04/08/russia-police-custody-torture-abuse-441489.html

http://www.economist.com/node/15731344

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-11829793

 

is a whole list o' nyt articles, but recent ombudsman position were kinda funny.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/23/world/europe/russias-new-human-rights-ombudsman-is-former-police-general.html

 

china has far better control o' information than even russia, so is no surprise that police is spoken o' in guarded whispers in that nation.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/20/world/asia/china-police-brutality-gansu.html

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-china-police-brutality-20160510-snap-story.html

 

"impunity" is the right word for russian and chinese police, eh?  

 

US gets media coverage o' every error, even when it turns out that the police weren't in error.

 

the military hardware in hands of US cops, btw, is a distraction by the tinfoil hat brigade... same folks that were trying to draw a correlation 'tween events in furgeson and the fact that an ex-police chief in that misourri township were having spent a week in israel getting anti-terrorist training. the issue we should be concerned 'bout regarding military hardware and USA cops is who the hell let the cops waste money on such stuff?  in all o' the police shooting videos that is creating such consternation and rage these days, how many was resulting from police rifles in the hands o' cops wearing tactical gear?  yeah, when riots break out, the cops bring out all their unnecessary gear and people wonder at the over-militarization o' cops.  'course the national guard, when they show up to such riots is also all tactical and scary.  and when people get shot in munich or nice, we see the streets lined with cops in tactical gear and wielding military firearms.

 

seriously, the military gear stuff is more a fear and perception issue... and fodder for the tinfoil hats.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

Do you have these sort of debates then?

 

http://www.thelocal.de/20160719/train-attack-bavaria-were-police-right-to-shoot-to-kill

 

Man chops up people on a train, debate opens up whether police had the right to shoot him.

 

Tell me honestly whether anyone would question the police shooting up a person in midst of committing a terrorist act in the US?

 

Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the response itself, I'm just pointing out that police violence is less socially acceptable (even when it perhaps should be).

How does insanity in Europe prove that something is wrong with the US?

 

 

Maybe both sides are insane? I'm just pointing out that cop violence is less acceptable. Nothing more than that.

 

Cop violence is not acceptable. The only time they're allowed to use deadly force is when someone's life is in danger.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

Do you have these sort of debates then?

 

http://www.thelocal.de/20160719/train-attack-bavaria-were-police-right-to-shoot-to-kill

 

Man chops up people on a train, debate opens up whether police had the right to shoot him.

 

Tell me honestly whether anyone would question the police shooting up a person in midst of committing a terrorist act in the US?

 

Mind you, I'm not saying anything about the response itself, I'm just pointing out that police violence is less socially acceptable (even when it perhaps should be).

How does insanity in Europe prove that something is wrong with the US?

 

 

Maybe both sides are insane? I'm just pointing out that cop violence is less acceptable. Nothing more than that.

 

Cop violence is not acceptable. The only time they're allowed to use deadly force is when someone's life is in danger.

 

not exactly true.  

 

if "the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others," the police can use deadly force.  the threat to others need not be immediate.  cop thinks that in some kinda nebulous near-future, the defendant mighta' attacked an innocent bystander while fleeing the cops? good enough. graham v. connor reaffirms the fleeing felon rule and observes that the test o' appropriateness is "from the reasonable officer perspective on the scene."  is not hindsight or 20/20.  

 

and again, to prosecute cops, one needs overcome beyond a reasonable doubt standard that All american criminal defendants gets.

 

fleeing felon rule actual has its origins in english common law, so can't blame the US Constitution for this one.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps facts o' graham don't actual involve a shooting.  is simple affirming the reasonableness test.  

Edited July 22, 2016 by Gromnir

[Hastur]

Two questions then, since you seem in the know about this stuff:

 

That one terrible cop who killed the guy in?  Georgia, I think, who was running from him...  Clearly, that just seemed like murder on its face, but the victim was fleeing as I recall.  He was clearly liable for prosecution and I believe he was prosecuted and found guilty.  If I remember it right.  So the running angle didn't work as a defense.

 

Also, the cop who shot some sort of mental health worker/therapist recently.  I can't remember where, but the cop shot the person who was helping someone on the ground.  I guess it was a patient and he had his hands and legs up.  Is he subject to criminal prosecution?  If he honestly thought that the worker was hurting the patient, he can be reprimanded, but can he be criminally prosecuted?

 

I think people lump some of this stuff together too much.  The cop who shot the guy in Minnesota was apparently panicking, not being malicious.  I think he was also Hispanic, which makes it a little less juicy to the media.  If a white cop kills someone, it's in the headline.  If the cop is non-white, it's buried or sometimes even not stated.  Kind of like George Zimmerman was 'white' and then 'white Hispanic.'  People wonder why the media is losing more and more credibility with the American public.

 

Anyhow, incompetence or mistakes seem to be in a different category than outright abuse of power as far as I'm concerned and I can't believe that the law would treat them the same.  That's why we have charges ranging from manslaughter to first degree murder with aggravating circumstances, right?

[Hurlshort]

My biggest issue above all others is the lack of transparency and statistics by police across the US.  There is really no excuse for why we don't have cold facts to tell us how many police shootings there are in a calendar year.  It's inexcusable.