mass shooting in orlando

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2016/06/13/sacramento-baptist-preacher-praises-orlando-gay-nightclub-attack/

 

A Sacramento Baptist preacher’s sermon praising an attack on an Orlando nightclub that killed 50 people has the local LGBT community outraged.

 

“Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?” he said in the sermon. “Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight.”

 

“If we lived in a righteous government, they should round them all up and put them up against a firing wall, and blow their brains out,” Jimenez said in the sermon.

 

Do Americans have a problem with Radical Christianity and what is the FBI doing to keep arms out of their hands? Thing being, of course, that if it were one of his congregation who did the shooting instead of a 2nd gen Muslim Afghan you'd have most of the people who want it to be all Radical Islam insisting it wasn't a religious issue this time and most of the people who don't want to mention Radical Islam insisting this was a religious issue, this time.

 

No they wouldn't. If that happened the government would go after those groups the way they've gone after white supremacists in the past. There's isn't any large scale international Christian terrorist movement. People are free to shoot off their mouth all they want though.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2016/06/13/sacramento-baptist-preacher-praises-orlando-gay-nightclub-attack/

 

A Sacramento Baptist preacher’s sermon praising an attack on an Orlando nightclub that killed 50 people has the local LGBT community outraged.

 

“Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?” he said in the sermon. “Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight.”

 

“If we lived in a righteous government, they should round them all up and put them up against a firing wall, and blow their brains out,” Jimenez said in the sermon.

Dont get annoyed by this, people like this I consider fundamentalist Christians and dont represent the views of  the majority of Americans or Christians ...very few people nowadays in the US  would be this open about there bigotry 

 

I am not sure about your assessment of very few people, there has been quite lot people in twitter and facebook that have openly celebrated this attack.

 

Although all don't necessary directly declare death for gays but aren't really that sympathetic towards people being killed just because who they love

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJcI7zcBfc

 

 

Excellent taking words out of context, and inserting words that are not there for insano point gain there.

 

Feed the zombies. Feed them!

 

 

 

Note, the above video is not zombie food. It's what the rest of us are going to end up eating once the zombies meet critical mass, and hell is unleashed upon the world. Which seems inevitable at this point.

 

 

Here's an ever so slightly more honest take on Monsieur Robertson's yabbering:

 

[Meshugger]

 

 

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are. Islam is far and away less tolerant, less inclusive and more violent than modern christianity. 

 

 

So what is your solution here?

 

 

An open panel discussing these three questions would be a start.

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are. Islam is far and away less tolerant, less inclusive and more violent than modern christianity. 

 

 

So what is your solution here?

 

I may be wrong here Hurlshot but I noticed you sometimes have  a very good way of supporting an idea  or social  development without bias because you believe in the principle that the outcome is a good one and constructive 

 

For example, I think you firmly believe in the principle of religious freedom in the USA and you also believe that Muslims should be able to practice there religion in the USA as the majority of muslims are not extremists and you are 100 % correct. I hope no one is suggesting that all Muslims are extremists

 

But the other guys are also correct, yes we must condemn homophobia from some US Christians but the people involved in Islamic extremism are way worse than any US conservative preacher spreading hate speech

 

So you both right, you ask what to do next? 

• We continue to condemn any homophobia from Christian conservatives
• We welcome Muslims into our communities as long as they understand the social expectation which is actually advanced in the USA
• We reject and condemn any Islamic extremism but we dont say " all Muslims are like this " 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are. Islam is far and away less tolerant, less inclusive and more violent than modern christianity. 

 

 

So what is your solution here?

 

 

An open panel discussing these three questions would be a start.

 

 

I have a issue with this video but its not because what the guy is saying is propaganda or necessarily false

 

This video is exactly what you DONT show to Muslims because its  a selective analysis of the reality of Islamic extremism...how does he expect any Muslim to respond?

 

So the reality nowadays is this, Islamic extremism has morphed into ISIS.....Al-Qaeda is gone and ISIS has very different short term goals to AQ. So more Muslims are killed by ISIS than other groups and only a small percentage of Sunni Muslims globally join ISIS...so it really is an extremist element 

 

But what  really does irritate me is the lack of criticism I see from SA Muslims towards any extremist attacks ...they would rather blame the West and Bush and Blair 

 

So he raises some relevant points but its unfair overall message 

[213374U]

An open panel discussing these three questions would be a start.

Have you stopped beating your girlfriend?

[BruceVC]

You guys must read the comments on this video, people have a very negative view of Islam 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I think the number one issue here is teaching tolerance.  We have a huge religious right the preaches against homosexuality, gay marriage, and morality.  If anyone should be called out over this, it is them.  They sow hatred.  

 

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are.

 

 

I'm counting... one Muslim, in recent memory?

[BruceVC]

 

 

I think the number one issue here is teaching tolerance.  We have a huge religious right the preaches against homosexuality, gay marriage, and morality.  If anyone should be called out over this, it is them.  They sow hatred.  

 

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are.

 

 

I'm counting... one Muslim, in recent memory?

 

yes but lets not be pedantic 

 

 

I am not religious but it is a valid point to say " Islamic extremism " is the problem, not " Christian conservatism " 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

I think the number one issue here is teaching tolerance.  We have a huge religious right the preaches against homosexuality, gay marriage, and morality.  If anyone should be called out over this, it is them.  They sow hatred.  

 

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are.

 

 

I'm counting... one Muslim, in recent memory?

 

yes but lets not be pedantic 

 

 

I am not religious but it is a valid point to say " Islamic extremism " is the problem, not " Christian conservatism " 

 

 

If the outcome is "they foster homophobia with hateful rhetoric", I genuinely see little difference between the two. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

I think the number one issue here is teaching tolerance.  We have a huge religious right the preaches against homosexuality, gay marriage, and morality.  If anyone should be called out over this, it is them.  They sow hatred.  

 

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are.

 

 

I'm counting... one Muslim, in recent memory?

 

yes but lets not be pedantic 

 

 

I am not religious but it is a valid point to say " Islamic extremism " is the problem, not " Christian conservatism " 

 

 

If the outcome is "they foster homophobia with hateful rhetoric", I genuinely see little difference between the two. 

 

Yes I hear you, as you know I am very supportive of LGBT community and 10 years ago I remember travelling to the USA for work and seeing the religious bigotry and always wondering why people would select something negative in the bible instead of the positive

 

But there is a huge difference with radial Islam and Christian conservatism on a number of levels ...and I'm not making excuses

 

 

For example Christians still respect the sanctity of a single life....while Muslim extremism believe its okay to sacrifice yourself for a jihad. But who do you think normally volunteers for these suicide missions ...its not successful, intelligent Muslims

 

 

And also this killing of a group of people irrespective of casualties has got to be the most obvious inconsistency

 

  And finally ISIS doctrine is selective quotes from the Koran so all the reprehensible deeds they commit they claim are  " allowed as its in the Koran " ....so there really is a difference if we fair 

 

Check this video about life in the ISIS capital....these people are like savages 

 

 http://www.wsj.com/video/life-inside-the-isis-home-base-of-raqqa-syria/AA8CB9E3-B6A9-49AB-A2C9-F8E843413B85.html

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

For example Christians still respect the sanctity of a single life....while Muslim extremism believe its okay to sacrifice yourself for a jihad. But who do you think normally volunteers for these suicide missions ...its not successful, intelligent Muslims

 

 

Well, exactly. I'm not sure how much of the "but why do you not see any Christian terrorist groups!" thing is inherent to Christianity versus just not having that many desperate and disenfranchised people around who can easily be talked into sacrificing themselves for intangible rewards.

Edited June 19, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid

[BruceVC]

 

 

For example Christians still respect the sanctity of a single life....while Muslim extremism believe its okay to sacrifice yourself for a jihad. But who do you think normally volunteers for these suicide missions ...its not successful, intelligent Muslims

 

 

Well, exactly. I'm not sure how much of the "but why do you not see any Christian terrorist groups!" thing is inherent to Christianity versus just not having that many desperate and disenfranchised people around who can easily be talked into sacrificing themselves for intangible rewards.

 

Yes that would be a factor and also the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lankas had Christians in there movement and they used suicide bombers

 

But nowadays its only the Muslim extremists who use this tactic and I'm not being biased. There is a real problem that the Muslim world needs to resolve as most victims are Muslims 

[Meshugger]

 

An open panel discussing these three questions would be a start.

Have you stopped beating your girlfriend?

 

 

lol

[BruceVC]

 

 

An open panel discussing these three questions would be a start.

Have you stopped beating your girlfriend?

 

 

lol

 

Stupid question but I dont get this joke?

[Valsuelm]

 

 

I think the number one issue here is teaching tolerance.  We have a huge religious right the preaches against homosexuality, gay marriage, and morality.  If anyone should be called out over this, it is them.  They sow hatred.  

 

The religious right isn't massacring infidels in the U.S. Or gays. Or people with contrary political beliefs. Muslims are.

 

 

I'm counting... one Muslim, in recent memory?

 

 

Your 'recent memory' doesn't go far back at all. This doesn't surprise me.

 

 

Off the top of my head, last year there was the San Bernadino killings, and before that in recent times the Boston Marathon bombing and Ft. Hood.

 

Here's a couple lists for you, keeping track of attacks/killings that are widely attributed to Muslims within the U.S., and believed by authorities to be at least in part religiously motivated:

 

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/american-attacks.aspx

http://www.wnd.com/2015/07/big-list-of-muslim-terror-attacks-in-u-s-since-911/

This doesn't take into consideration attacks abroad, particularly in Europe, where more occur.

 

If one is so brainwashed that they can't differentiate between the 'religious right' and Muslims, their brain is broken. If one thinks that religiously motivated Christians are running around within the U.S. (or Europe) wreaking violent havoc even remotely on the same scale that religiously motivated Muslims are, they are ignorant, delusional, and/or their brain is simply broken.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Valsuelm

[Oerwinde]

 

 

For example Christians still respect the sanctity of a single life....while Muslim extremism believe its okay to sacrifice yourself for a jihad. But who do you think normally volunteers for these suicide missions ...its not successful, intelligent Muslims

 

Well, exactly. I'm not sure how much of the "but why do you not see any Christian terrorist groups!" thing is inherent to Christianity versus just not having that many desperate and disenfranchised people around who can easily be talked into sacrificing themselves for intangible rewards.

I would think part of it was the founder of christianity preached love and acceptance, and the founder of Islam preached hate, murdered countless people and raped children.

 

While Christians often fail to uphold the values of Jesus, Muslims do a much better job with that of Muhammad

Edited June 19, 2016 by Oerwinde

[Hurlshort]

I would think part of it was the founder of christianity preached love and acceptance, and the founder of Islam preached hate, murdered countless people and raped children.

 

While Christians often fail to uphold the values of Jesus, Muslims do a much better job with that of Muhammad

This is a pretty biased way to differentiate between the two religions. It also is fairly sloppy with the history. But most egregious of all is the ignoring all the things that have happened in the name of the two religions over the past centuries. Just because Christianity is in a time of stability does not mean we should just label it the good religion and Islam the bad one. And realistically, how does that do any good? Is Islam going to become stable because of that? Probably not.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Your 'recent memory' doesn't go far back at all. This doesn't surprise me.

 

 

Off the top of my head, last year there was the San Bernadino killings, and before that in recent times the Boston Marathon bombing and Ft. Hood.

 

Here's a couple lists for you, keeping track of attacks/killings that are widely attributed to Muslims within the U.S., and believed by authorities to be at least in part religiously motivated:

 

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/american-attacks.aspx

 

 

So, in the last 5 years, on average, there's been slightly less than 17 deaths per year attributed to Muslim extremism. The US sees 14-15k cases of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter a year. The terrible menace you speak of is responsible for a little more than 0,1% of the total murder rate in the country.

 

I can't help but add that about 70% of Americans profess to be Christians. In the absence of other data, we should default to the base ratios, meaning that we can safely assume that Christians committed 70% of those 14k murders. Even if we assume that Christians are especially peaceful, and are only responsible for half the normal rate of murders, this still puts them at around 5k. There you have it, folks - even by exceedingly conservative estimates, you're almost 300 times as likely to be killed by a Christian than a radical Muslim! Tremble before the true scourge of America.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

For example Christians still respect the sanctity of a single life....while Muslim extremism believe its okay to sacrifice yourself for a jihad. But who do you think normally volunteers for these suicide missions ...its not successful, intelligent Muslims

Well, exactly. I'm not sure how much of the "but why do you not see any Christian terrorist groups!" thing is inherent to Christianity versus just not having that many desperate and disenfranchised people around who can easily be talked into sacrificing themselves for intangible rewards.

I would think part of it was the founder of christianity preached love and acceptance, and the founder of Islam preached hate, murdered countless people and raped children.

 

While Christians often fail to uphold the values of Jesus, Muslims do a much better job with that of Muhammad

 

I would think part of it was the founder of christianity preached love and acceptance, and the founder of Islam preached hate, murdered countless people and raped children.

 

While Christians often fail to uphold the values of Jesus, Muslims do a much better job with that of Muhammad

This is a pretty biased way to differentiate between the two religions. It also is fairly sloppy with the history. But most egregious of all is the ignoring all the things that have happened in the name of the two religions over the past centuries. Just because Christianity is in a time of stability does not mean we should just label it the good religion and Islam the bad one. And realistically, how does that do any good? Is Islam going to become stable because of that? Probably not.

 

Oh no Oerwinde, I'm sorry I didnt read  that part in your post ...this must be omitted  "nd the founder of Islam preached hate, murdered countless people and raped children "  everything else is fine but Hulrshot is right 

 

I was going to tell you after you said you feared a civil war that I have been working in the ME since 2001, they prefer to use consultants from outside the USA. Anyway I can share some real insights with you if you want and once I'm done you will realize there will be no civil war 

 

But I'm going to honest ...the good and bad. And there is more bad but remember my views on SJ so I tend to be critical. I wont be bigoted but things do need to said 

 

If you want to hear this let me know but its a few paragrahs so I will only write it if you want to read it

[BruceVC]

 

 

Your 'recent memory' doesn't go far back at all. This doesn't surprise me.

 

 

Off the top of my head, last year there was the San Bernadino killings, and before that in recent times the Boston Marathon bombing and Ft. Hood.

 

Here's a couple lists for you, keeping track of attacks/killings that are widely attributed to Muslims within the U.S., and believed by authorities to be at least in part religiously motivated:

 

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/american-attacks.aspx

 

 

So, in the last 5 years, on average, there's been slightly less than 17 deaths per year attributed to Muslim extremism. The US sees 14-15k cases of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter a year. The terrible menace you speak of is responsible for a little more than 0,1% of the total murder rate in the country.

 

I can't help but add that about 70% of Americans profess to be Christians. In the absence of other data, we should default to the base ratios, meaning that we can safely assume that Christians committed 70% of those 14k murders. Even if we assume that Christians are especially peaceful, and are only responsible for half the normal rate of murders, this still puts them at around 5k. There you have it, folks - even by exceedingly conservative estimates, you're almost 300 times as likely to be killed by a Christian than a radical Muslim! Tremble before the true scourge of America.

 

I like you, you often display a real degree of sensitivity about certain topics ...you really dont like to just make unfair generalizations

 

And often your insights are right but lets be honest sometimes its easy to reject some of the generalizations some of our members make, when you and Meshugger start debating you always make me laugh

 

But anyway trust me on this one, there is no positive side to the likes of ISIS  

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

But anyway trust me on this one, there is no positive side to the likes of ISIS  

 

 

Well, sure there isn't. They're fundamentalists who blow people up. Doesn't mean the wild flailing in the vein of "omg it's the fault of Islam! if only they could be good Christians instead, suddenly all of our problems would be solved!" isn't ridiculously wrong-headed.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

Your 'recent memory' doesn't go far back at all. This doesn't surprise me.

 

 

Off the top of my head, last year there was the San Bernadino killings, and before that in recent times the Boston Marathon bombing and Ft. Hood.

 

Here's a couple lists for you, keeping track of attacks/killings that are widely attributed to Muslims within the U.S., and believed by authorities to be at least in part religiously motivated:

 

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/american-attacks.aspx

 

 

So, in the last 5 years, on average, there's been slightly less than 17 deaths per year attributed to Muslim extremism. The US sees 14-15k cases of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter a year. The terrible menace you speak of is responsible for a little more than 0,1% of the total murder rate in the country.

 

I can't help but add that about 70% of Americans profess to be Christians. In the absence of other data, we should default to the base ratios, meaning that we can safely assume that Christians committed 70% of those 14k murders. Even if we assume that Christians are especially peaceful, and are only responsible for half the normal rate of murders, this still puts them at around 5k. There you have it, folks - even by exceedingly conservative estimates, you're almost 300 times as likely to be killed by a Christian than a radical Muslim! Tremble before the true scourge of America.

 

 

Your response was predictable (hence me typing the bolded above, more than once, yet to no avail as ignorance reigns in your head) and is as relevant as if I quoted some crime statistics for predominantly Muslim nation X, and laid the blame upon Muslims. The fact that 70% of the U.S. population is definitely not made up of devout Christians aside. As well as the fact that the murder rate within the U.S. is not uniform across the ethnic group board or religious group board aside.

 

You're attempting to obfuscate evil with other evil (and oft lesser at that). There is a world of difference between the general crime that any given nation on earth experiences and violent attacks perpetrated by people who are foreign to a given nation who fundamentally believe they are at war with said nation or it's people (via culture, ideology, religion, etc). If you cannot see that difference, your brain is broken.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Your response was predictable (hence me typing the bolded above, more than once, yet to no avail as ignorance reigns in your head) and is as relevant as if I quoted some crime statistics for predominantly Muslim nation X, and laid the blame upon Muslims. The fact that 70% of the U.S. population is definitely not made up of devout Christians aside. As well as the fact that the murder rate within the U.S. is not uniform across the ethnic group board or religious group board aside.

 

You're attempting to obfuscate evil with other evil (and oft lesser at that). There is a world of difference between the general crime that any given nation on earth experiences and violent attacks perpetrated by people who are foreign to a given nation who fundamentally believe they are at war with said nation or it's people (via culture, ideology, religion, etc). If you cannot see that difference, your brain is broken.

 

 

Your complete inability to identify sarcasm somehow fails to surprise me.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

An open panel discussing these three questions would be a start.

Have you stopped beating your girlfriend?

 

 

lol

 

Stupid question but I dont get this joke?

 

 

It's fun because it goes both ways. Numbersman illustrates that my pontification is an accusation where there is no possible answer to refute the question(s), while on the same hand it is very permissable to beat your wife in islamic countries.