Should the UK leave the EU?

[Darkpriest]

I'd rather have it survive, we already know the EU divided by various national interests, and it's not something I'd like to see again. But first and foremost it needs to focus on building the economic background for the growth of societies - they need a staged evolution, not a revolution. It cannot force a way of life and centralized culture on its member states.

[213374U]

 

 

c) It was almost exclusively Christians (albeit not all of them, for quite some time), mostly of the Protestant flavor that fought tirelessly, bled, and died for the liberties which you now enjoy. Not Muslims, Not Jews, not Animists, Buddhists, Hindus, or whatever else. Christians.

 

Historical context, please. The forward Christian thinkers that fought for religious tolerance and the separation of Church and state were a product of the aftermath of the incredibly bloody massacres that were perpetrated in Europe by Christians, for -on the surface- religious reasons, for over a hundred years. It is not possible to understand modern Western culture without the religion wars of the 16th and 17th centuries.

 

So yeah, Christians. But only after they figured out that maybe, maybe, burning the heretic, killing the mutant, purging the unclean wasn't the best way to go about it.

 

How about we try to foster the same kind of self-reflection within Islam rather than going full-on Der Stürmer at the drop of a hat?

 

---

 

Regarding the Muslim rape gangs. While appalling, it's a drop in the ocean, sadly. Look up the numbers of child sex trafficking involving Eastern Europe. Hint: the mafias controlling that trade are run by white kingpins, and directed mostly at Western European white customers.

 

edit: sure guv'nor, no more talk of Muslims. For all the good it does anyway...

 

 

In the vast majority of the posts I ever make on any given topic on this forum, historical context is considered (frankly, hence my point of view on many things as I have deep knowledge of the history (I don't opine when I don't know, I listen)). The one you reference, is not one of the exceptions.

 

I'm more than well aware of the situations which you bring up, however, in the context in which I was writing, they are a combination of acknowledged and irrelevant to the point I was making.

 

Get over yourself.

[Valsuelm]

Get over yourself.

You've got nothing but irrelevance on the subject at hand. Bring something to the table, or go away.

 

Sorry your ego was bruised. I had thought you were above projection.

[BruceVC]

"British people wanted to leave the EU because they are racists and dont like Muslims" 

 

Hating Muslims is no more racist than hating Christians. HOLY MOLY. WHY CNA';T PEOPLE GET THAT SIMPLE CONCEPT!?!

Volo please try show empathy towards what the UK and EU are going through especially since you claim to about the threat of Islamic extremism

 

A persons opinion on matters like refugees and UK leaving the EU can be shaped and influenced by there real exposure to it 

 

So you are very fortunate, not only do you live in one of the worlds most stable, progressive countries  you are also  aligned to the West so you understand and support Western values 

 

Now your PM who you think is weak and a SJW Nazi is probably the best person to run Canada at the moment. I like him and what he stands for. He comes across as sincere but he is a real idealist ....he believes in certain things that would be dispelled if he lived in Europe and had to deal with the reality of radical Islam

 

But so what, even if he is naive he really seems to believe it and his progressive attitude seems to work for Canada 

 

But anyway in closing you live in North Bay, Ontario. North Bay?

 

As you know most people dont know or particularly about where you live, I had  a view of North Bay as this rural, mountainous village where people still want Independence from Canada (isn't that what Ontario wants ) but lets say you gave them independence they wouldn't have a clue what to do next 

 

But the good news is if people dont care about North  Bay than the chance of you being attack by extremists is almost impossible 

 

But I'm sure you can try to understand the reality of the EU and the threat it faces?

[Darkpriest]

Always interesting to see if someone's own view is shown by vote it's "the will of the people", but if they turn they other way? Well, "people are not educated enough to vote.", "democracy is a failure" or "the unlittered masses won now. If only highly educated people and well thinking people (like me, obviously) voted, this would be so different"

...

Every single time again.

 

Not really, I always said that democracy is the rule of stupid.

[BruceVC]

Guys for people on this forum who care about the EU this video is a perfect example of the type of anti-EU sentiment that exists and feeds on the real concerns of people

 

Its really interesting to watch because of how it uses this  spurious  logic to try to undermine the EU yet he does  make points that some people will  believe

 

I am keen if anyone believes anything in the video do you mind mentioning the point and what minute its on the video as I can honestly and reasonably dispute everything he says but I need examples 

[213374U]

 

Get over yourself.

You've got nothing but irrelevance on the subject at hand. Bring something to the table, or go away.

 

Sorry your ego was bruised. I had thought you were above projection.

 

That's some delicious irony coming from you, talking about irrelevance and bruised egos, considering that you can't seem to write two words without reminding everyone of how well read, well traveled and intelligent you are.

 

So yeah, looks like I was pretty much spot on, and my advice to you bears repeating: get over yourself.

Edited June 26, 2016 by 213374U

[Hassat Hunter]

I'd rather have it survive, we already know the EU divided by various national interests, and it's not something I'd like to see again. But first and foremost it needs to focus on building the economic background for the growth of societies - they need a staged evolution, not a revolution. It cannot force a way of life and centralized culture on its member states.

I have no fear that Europe will be torn asunder if the EU falls. Greece, maybe, but they will become the better of it rather than being put on death's thread and not allowed to die by the EU for so long. I have little believe that the EU has any chance of saving, much like Greece, it just lingers on, un-death, barely above the brink of failing, but do so by pumping more and more money in it. It doesn't work, it just makes the corpse a more expensive corpse, and the fall the harder when it does spit it's last breath. Rather get out before it gets cataclysmic funds. Starting over will give a much better chance than trying to actually make something worthwhile of this horrid beast. We found the EEG before, we can do so again. And this time hopefully not get megolamaniac over addign as many countries in that are incompatible, starting wars if need be.

 

Sometimes it's just better to have a clean slate. Rather than having to deal with several plates of **** before you can start the main course, the unlikely case you get that far.

[Darkpriest]

Well, we will see what the EU leaders think about the future, once the process of Brexit will start and they will need to redo the budget for the next years.

[Elerond]

Well, we will see what the EU leaders think about the future, once the process of Brexit will start and they will need to redo the budget for the next years.

 

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

 

As UK may not give their notification until October and withdrawal agreement negotiations may take years, which means that it is quite possible that we have new European parliament before UK's agreements with EU end and they actually leave the union. But at least we should have couple fun years ahead of us.

[BruceVC]

 

I'd rather have it survive, we already know the EU divided by various national interests, and it's not something I'd like to see again. But first and foremost it needs to focus on building the economic background for the growth of societies - they need a staged evolution, not a revolution. It cannot force a way of life and centralized culture on its member states.

I have no fear that Europe will be torn asunder if the EU falls. Greece, maybe, but they will become the better of it rather than being put on death's thread and not allowed to die by the EU for so long. I have little believe that the EU has any chance of saving, much like Greece, it just lingers on, un-death, barely above the brink of failing, but do so by pumping more and more money in it. It doesn't work, it just makes the corpse a more expensive corpse, and the fall the harder when it does spit it's last breath. Rather get out before it gets cataclysmic funds. Starting over will give a much better chance than trying to actually make something worthwhile of this horrid beast. We found the EEG before, we can do so again. And this time hopefully not get megolamaniac over addign as many countries in that are incompatible, starting wars if need be.

 

Sometimes it's just better to have a clean slate. Rather than having to deal with several plates of **** before you can start the main course, the unlikely case you get that far.

 

Come on, you cant be serious with this post? Is this your really your view...

 

Okay lets say this is your honest opinion...lets break things down and hopefully we can dismiss most of what you are saying. Please understand this is not personal but finally I am seeing real concern about the EU from members, this is something I always thought was strangely lacking from the EU members so now for me its important we provide accurate views to people who do care and this post of yours really doesn't make sense 

 

• little believe that the EU has any chance of saving : This is a huge statement, you must have a view of the next few things that will happen that will cause the EU to fail,can you share them ?
• . It doesn't work: What are your expectations for the EU that you say this ? The EU has always been about the free market and it is the worlds strongest economy. So hasn't it delivered on?
• Sometimes it's just better to have a clean slate : Why ? What you want from a new EU...please mention real points

 

I'm sorry to seem to put you on the spot but I assume with the real instability of Brexit you have done research and can justify your view? 

[BruceVC]

 

Well, we will see what the EU leaders think about the future, once the process of Brexit will start and they will need to redo the budget for the next years.

 

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

 

As UK may not give their notification until October and withdrawal agreement negotiations may take years, which means that it is quite possible that we have new European parliament before UK's agreements with EU end and they actually leave the union. But at least we should have couple fun years ahead of us.

 

Hi Elerond

 

How you feeling about Brexit....are you negative....unsure ?

 

Your view on this matter is important to me because of all the interesting posts you make and effort you put in to your comments 

[Meshugger]

Peter Hitchens nearly cracking a smile...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnCvl2T_o5o

 

That's almost unnerving, i haven't ever seen him attempting a smile before.

 

 

18-24 year old turn out was ~36% for the vote. Bit of a rum old do, blaming more senior people for actually turning up to vote when your group couldn't even be bothered to.

What?! You mean votes on Twitter weren't counted? What's the world coming to?

 

Oh, I am so pissed right now. I'm going to write the angriest 140-character post ever, just you watch.

 

 

 

Write in haiku, it's more fun!

Edited June 26, 2016 by Meshugger

[Hassat Hunter]

little believe that the EU has any chance of saving : This is a huge statement, you must have a view of the next few things that will happen that will cause the EU to fail,can you share them ?

If it's members don't bail out now and make it fall appart, there are about half-a-dozen if not more ways it steers towards collapse. With it's inability to decide anything about the refugees it turned to Turkey, which does hold the EU ransom now for more money to do what they want. Also apparently they've said they would talk about EU-membership, something they would never give to Turkey due to human right violations. Even making that offer is reason for concern. Then there's the war they started in Ukraine and the tensions it keeps poking with Russia. There's the economic instability (mostly hearing about Greece) where more and more money from it's member gets pumped into the EU itself to save it from the Euro falling economically appart. The amount keeps rising and rising to staggering amounts, and it doesn't help at all, no way it's going to hold out without fully draining economies. Schengen has pretty much collapsed due to inability to decide anything and countries had to take their own steps. All the big decisions? EU is useless and countries need to do it themselves anyway. Why pump billions into it if the best they can come up with is "seek it out yourself"?

Their entire purpose for existance; they aren't doing. Yet it keeps needing more and more funds to not do it.

It doesn't work: What are your expectations for the EU that you say this ? The EU has always been about the free market and it is the worlds strongest economy. So hasn't it delivered on?

While other economies long been past the economic crisis Europe still dragged on. Other economies bloomed again with devaluating their currency, the EU can't. Several economies survived by pumping money in, we HAD to lower our expenses, dragging on the economic dispair further. National budgets got really tight due to all the extra money that had to go to Brussel to "save the Eurozone", but still had to keep under that 3% which meant making local economies worse again. So no, I have no idea where you got "world's strongest economy" from, but those past 10+ years or so we've seriously hanged onto a thread of life, thanks to the EU.

Sometimes it's just better to have a clean slate : Why ? What you want from a new EU...please mention real points

The actual ideals of the EU... that got wrecked by mismanagement, too rapid expansion (just allowing a lot of unqualified countries in cause they wanted to be big soon), less bureaucratic nonsense. It should be an agreement between nations for free trade, open borders and unity. Not Brussel nitpicking every single little thing, being dictatorish over everyone, sucking giant sums of money (for WHAT?) and in the end when things have to be decided like on economic reasons or the refugee issue is wholesome incapable and out-sources it again (for more money, yay!). Back to the EEG seems a good way, just economic co-operation, not this political one.

I'm sorry to seem to put you on the spot but I assume with the real instability of Brexit you have done research and can justify your view?

There is no real "instability"... it's speculators going bonkers over something unexpected happening. That pretty much always happens, so it's not really too much of a concern. Specualators wanted them to stay, expected them and that hope raised the stocks, then when they got a cold shower it dropped again, but it's pretty much an equal balance in the end, so all the fearmongering is people having no idea how financial markets work taking it as "proof" (as always happens). The stocks already started rising steadily over friday, and they will do monday. We'll see a more accurate presentation mid next-week, then I can give you a proper report of the "damage" it has done, as this is just as much fearmongering as during the campaign was done (still waiting for World War III here). All the doomscenario's all assume a break would mean Brittain would have no trade at all, but that's fairly out-of-the-world thinking, rationality of course says the EU trading partners Brittain has will not stop trading since it would seriously harm themselves. The EU is cutting their profits enough as is with the stupid trade ban with Russia without going onto another trade ban, especially seeing how fragile and weak the Euro-economy is. If they would, it would just show how class-act the EU really is, and mean their own termination too. Wasn't going to happen.

So yeah, I seriously doubt much will change for Brittain at all, as only speculative economies (which are pretty prone to heavy fluctuations) will change much, and they will veer back. Them having their own currency helps too of course. No it will be far more interesting and unpredictable to see what happens if the EU falls and the Euro dies to all of us here.

There are plenty of doom-scenario's too of course (have to threatnen people to stay in the EU since, well, that's pretty much the best argument they got) most of them being around having a very weak currency and being a trading country. Funny thing being, a majorly export based trading country like the Netherlands will very much benefit from such a weaker currency. And if the biggest scare-tactics resolve around a threat of something happening that's actually beneficial to us? Yeah, not scared, let the EU fall. We'll survive, we'll be stronger. I don't want us to be like a communistic USSR country by the time the Iron Curtain fell, let's stay way ahead of that time.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Hassat Hunter

[Elerond]

 

 

Well, we will see what the EU leaders think about the future, once the process of Brexit will start and they will need to redo the budget for the next years.

 

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

 

As UK may not give their notification until October and withdrawal agreement negotiations may take years, which means that it is quite possible that we have new European parliament before UK's agreements with EU end and they actually leave the union. But at least we should have couple fun years ahead of us.

 

Hi Elerond

 

How you feeling about Brexit....are you negative....unsure ?

 

Your view on this matter is important to me because of all the interesting posts you make and effort you put in to your comments 

 

 

It is what it is. People of UK wanted to leave union and it was their right to do so. 

It will most likely negate all economic gains that Finland has succeed to do in past year and sent us back to regression, because of uncertainty in economic markets, which will most likely continue for some time even after when UK actually leaves EU. 

 

If we look positive sides of things, this most likely means that some of those UK data centers need to leave from UK and move to countries that are still EU thanks to EU's data protection laws. And Finland is in pretty good position to offer them new home. And in theory our universities will get tens of millions euros in tuition fees from UK students, but I am pretty sure that their number will dramatically drop when their tuition rise from 0€ to somewhere near 18000€ per year.

 

UK's exit has change to make EU politics easier as they were big country with lots of special rights in union and now that they leave it will make union more equal. 

 

On negative sides of things, this will make European nationalism stronger, far right parties will get influx on their popularity and we will continue to debate more about topics that actually only have marginal effect on things and much bigger issues get to be decide without public taking notice.

 

But as I said it is what it is. It will not end the world, but it will make use take look on how things are going especially our unified Europe project.

[Elerond]

[Hassat Hunter]

Ah, another fun one... "Think about those poor people that didn't vote"

 

Well, if you didn't vote, you didn't vote. No post-event "boohoo" for you if it doesn't turn out the way you want, should have voted then.

Seriously, it's like darn Ukraine vote here all over again. Except of course our anti-EU votes got ignored like the second time in a row. But the outcry and sad losers where all the same.

 

EDIT: Actually, have to somewhat rectify that, I don't think I've heard any complains about how evil old people are and they shouldn't be allowed to vote and just leave all decisionmaking to the much "wiser" glorious youth. That's a new one.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Hassat Hunter

[Hiro Protagonist]

Café latte sipping hipsters crying. Or in this case, wine sipping hipsters crying.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/06/25/dont-tell-me-im-not-allowed-to-be-upset-about-brexit--its-person/

 

The Telegraph has gone full retard.

 

"I can’t stop crying" my friend said as we embraced yesterday. "I know, it’s just awful," I echoed. 

 

Three of us had organised an impromptu catch up to talk and commiserate at our favourite café, run by a young Italian couple, which has become like a second living room to us.

 

We go there for the excellent coffee and food, free WiFi  (which, admittedly we sometimes abuse by sitting for hours, working or searching property websites, fantasising about one day owning a studio apartment in the outer reaches of London) and friendly chats with the owners, who have become an integral part of our lives and our community.

 

My urge on entering the café, after yesterday’s EU referendum result, was to apologise to them for the way they must be feeling right now. They are model citizens who have worked hard and built a business which employs people and is a wonderful, friendly meeting place for anyone who cares to go there.

 

They were able to do this because of Britain’s position in the European Union, because of our open borders and free trade – and, importantly, because of London’s unique and unrivalled embrace of multiculturalism.

 

Suddenly all three of these things we have taken for granted for so long are under enormous threat.

 

 

These things are under enormous threat? What threat? Is the café going to close down? Are these 'citizens' going to get deported?

 

 

We ordered a bottle of Italian wine and sat down to debrief on what had happened – and how we felt about it. We were angry, but overwhelmingly our feelings were of sadness.

 

Our social media feeds were full of similar anger and grief.  Tearful emojis littered posts about people feeling physically ill and shocked by the result. Friends outside of Europe commiserated and asked “WTF Britain?”. Others in the European Union wondered if their futures were uncertain too.

 

It might all sound a bit hysterical, but these are genuine concerns. People are worried about their families, friends and colleagues in a post-Brexit UK.

 

 

I can just imagine the scene. A glass of wine in one hand, their iphone in the other, raging and crying from their twitter and facebook feeds. A bit hysterical? You don't say.

 

 

They are worried about the economy and if they will still have a job, and they are worried if the value of their homes and retirement funds will plunge. They are worried about the growth of flag-waving nationalism and anti-intellectualism and what these things could morph into.

 

These concerns are legitimate, scary and personal. And they should not be disregarded or pushed aside.

 

 

So these 20 somethings are worried about the value of their homes and their retirement funds? Hang on, didn't this person say they were fantasising about one day owning a studio apartment in the outer reaches of London? Or are they worried about all those 'old people' who they blamed for voting LEAVE with their homes and retirement funds now under scrutiny? I'm confused.

 

 

As Australian-born British citizens and permanent residents, the three of us sitting in our café talked about how we had grown up in great admiration of the European Union. 

 

As a distant member of the Commonwealth, Australia battles for attention on a world stage, more likely to make news for our fearsome wildlife and occasionally awful manners than for our policy making.

 

 

Stereotypes and being judgemental can be fun. That's okay. We have a pretty cool funnel web spider that lives in Sydney

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsEogUO7q1M

 

 

 

 

It is hard for us to understand how a country sitting at one of the most powerful tables in the world would make a decision to walk away, seemingly so casually.

 

On a personal level we have to come to terms with the fact our British passports will no longer grant us unfettered freedom to work and live across 28 countries. It is an enormous privilege and opportunity, which most people in the world could only dream of. Now it has been yanked away.

 

Ah yes, in two years time depending on what the rules are for UK and EU citizens travelling between countries, you may have to take time out of your busy social media life to fill out a form to enter another country. The horror! But nobody really knows.

 

 

 

We hope we will not have to say goodbye to friends who live and work in Britain under EU passports, including my housemate who is of Irish heritage. That will depend on the terms of Britain’s exit, but even a slight possibility is anxiety-inducing enough.

 

There are also all of the other people we come into contact with on a daily basis who now face an uncertain future: colleagues, bus drivers, cleaners, the people selling us coffee and newspapers in the morning. Those who are highly skilled will likely be ok, but what about those who work hard in "unskilled" jobs?

 

 

 

Irish people may be deported because the UK left the EU? Maybe that's a good thing?  And all those bus drivers, cleaners, café owners and newsagents are going to have leave as well.

 

 

 

We worry about the impact on British charities and other non-government organisations operating internationally and whether they will lose access to important, life-saving grants. Whether, once out of the EU, Britain’s international aid commitment will become a target for populist politicians.

 

We worry that those same populists who were so key to this revolt will use their new found influence and justification to start targeting other freedoms the EU has been integral to achieving: LGBTI and women’s rights in particular.

 

 

 

British Charities are going to lose grants? And the people who voted LEAVE are targeting women's rights in particular?

 

 

 

As the anti-Brexit backlash grows, with a petition to hold a second referendum now well above one million signatures, many people are telling those who supported Remain to shut up and accept that they have lost. To stop moaning and crying about the result.

 

 

 

And a lot of those people who have signed the petition are outside of Britain. Now some of these people in other countries may be Brit's, but who can say for certain?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But this was no ordinary referendum. It will affect so many of us on a profoundly personal level. We have every right to be upset.  

 

The Brexit camp would not have packed up and walked away quietly if Britain had voted to remain in the EU. They would have regrouped and continued to fight. This is their right.

 

Remain supporters are not going to resign themselves to what has happened and walk away quietly. While there is little recourse for us to change the result, we can use our collective energy to push for the best Brexit possible. One where our European friends and colleagues are treated fairly and the bigoted elements of the Brexit campaign are pushed to the side-lines in favour of those people who have solid, mature policy ideas for exiting the EU and a strong regard for humanity. This is our right.

 

 

 

Hang on, you're going to push aside the people who voted LEAVE, take charge and push through for the best Brexit possible as well as treating your European friends and colleagues fairly with mature policies and a strong regard for humanity? Dear Lord, where do these people come from.

 

 

 

And there was no referendum on expressing emotion.

 

We can cry if we want to.

 

 

 

I can only take so much retard for one day.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Hiro Protagonist

[Meshugger]

I think that this was posted already, but it has to be posted again:

 

[Nonek]

One has to wonder how such drama queens would handle real tribulation in their lives?

[BruceVC]

 

little believe that the EU has any chance of saving : This is a huge statement, you must have a view of the next few things that will happen that will cause the EU to fail,can you share them ?

If it's members don't bail out now and make it fall appart, there are about half-a-dozen if not more ways it steers towards collapse. With it's inability to decide anything about the refugees it turned to Turkey, which does hold the EU ransom now for more money to do what they want. Also apparently they've said they would talk about EU-membership, something they would never give to Turkey due to human right violations. Even making that offer is reason for concern. Then there's the war they started in Ukraine and the tensions it keeps poking with Russia. There's the economic instability (mostly hearing about Greece) where more and more money from it's member gets pumped into the EU itself to save it from the Euro falling economically appart. The amount keeps rising and rising to staggering amounts, and it doesn't help at all, no way it's going to hold out without fully draining economies. Schengen has pretty much collapsed due to inability to decide anything and countries had to take their own steps. All the big decisions? EU is useless and countries need to do it themselves anyway. Why pump billions into it if the best they can come up with is "seek it out yourself"?

Their entire purpose for existance; they aren't doing. Yet it keeps needing more and more funds to not do it.

It doesn't work: What are your expectations for the EU that you say this ? The EU has always been about the free market and it is the worlds strongest economy. So hasn't it delivered on?

While other economies long been past the economic crisis Europe still dragged on. Other economies bloomed again with devaluating their currency, the EU can't. Several economies survived by pumping money in, we HAD to lower our expenses, dragging on the economic dispair further. National budgets got really tight due to all the extra money that had to go to Brussel to "save the Eurozone", but still had to keep under that 3% which meant making local economies worse again. So no, I have no idea where you got "world's strongest economy" from, but those past 10+ years or so we've seriously hanged onto a thread of life, thanks to the EU.

Sometimes it's just better to have a clean slate : Why ? What you want from a new EU...please mention real points

The actual ideals of the EU... that got wrecked by mismanagement, too rapid expansion (just allowing a lot of unqualified countries in cause they wanted to be big soon), less bureaucratic nonsense. It should be an agreement between nations for free trade, open borders and unity. Not Brussel nitpicking every single little thing, being dictatorish over everyone, sucking giant sums of money (for WHAT?) and in the end when things have to be decided like on economic reasons or the refugee issue is wholesome incapable and out-sources it again (for more money, yay!). Back to the EEG seems a good way, just economic co-operation, not this political one.

I'm sorry to seem to put you on the spot but I assume with the real instability of Brexit you have done research and can justify your view?

There is no real "instability"... it's speculators going bonkers over something unexpected happening. That pretty much always happens, so it's not really too much of a concern. Specualators wanted them to stay, expected them and that hope raised the stocks, then when they got a cold shower it dropped again, but it's pretty much an equal balance in the end, so all the fearmongering is people having no idea how financial markets work taking it as "proof" (as always happens). The stocks already started rising steadily over friday, and they will do monday. We'll see a more accurate presentation mid next-week, then I can give you a proper report of the "damage" it has done, as this is just as much fearmongering as during the campaign was done (still waiting for World War III here). All the doomscenario's all assume a break would mean Brittain would have no trade at all, but that's fairly out-of-the-world thinking, rationality of course says the EU trading partners Brittain has will not stop trading since it would seriously harm themselves. The EU is cutting their profits enough as is with the stupid trade ban with Russia without going onto another trade ban, especially seeing how fragile and weak the Euro-economy is. If they would, it would just show how class-act the EU really is, and mean their own termination too. Wasn't going to happen.

So yeah, I seriously doubt much will change for Brittain at all, as only speculative economies (which are pretty prone to heavy fluctuations) will change much, and they will veer back. Them having their own currency helps too of course. No it will be far more interesting and unpredictable to see what happens if the EU falls and the Euro dies to all of us here.

There are plenty of doom-scenario's too of course (have to threatnen people to stay in the EU since, well, that's pretty much the best argument they got) most of them being around having a very weak currency and being a trading country. Funny thing being, a majorly export based trading country like the Netherlands will very much benefit from such a weaker currency. And if the biggest scare-tactics resolve around a threat of something happening that's actually beneficial to us? Yeah, not scared, let the EU fall. We'll survive, we'll be stronger. I don't want us to be like a communistic USSR country by the time the Iron Curtain fell, let's stay way ahead of that time.

 

I appreciate your detailed response, these discussions are important as we get to exchange ideas and I really want to understand these points. The reality of any forum is people get involved in debates like not because they care about the UK or the EU but because they get  entertained by spreading or increasing negativity

 

I dont take it personally but this not some silly GG  discussion or a hypothetical debate about " was Turkey justified in shooting the Russian plane down "  .....this is in RL and is relevant and concerning to many EU forum members and to people like myself

 

So I would hope and assume our forum members would be cognizant of this reality and not make posts that have no purpose but to exacerbate the situation...and yes some people do this on this forum  

 

But I need time to respond as you made several relevant points, I  will update this later 

[BruceVC]

Café latte sipping hipsters crying. Or in this case, wine sipping hipsters crying.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/06/25/dont-tell-me-im-not-allowed-to-be-upset-about-brexit--its-person/

 

The Telegraph has gone full retard.

 

 

 

I can only take so much retard for one day.

There should be nothing unusual about people getting genuinely upset about the UK leaving the EU. We really should not mock people who really may cry as this is just a normal emotion....remember this is not like in Oz where you guys send immigrants to jungle hellhole islands....and the only time you have to think about them again is where one of the immigrants sets himself on fire in protest

 

Many people feel Oz is in contravention of human rights laws

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-22/human-rights-watch-scathing-on-australia27s-treatment-of-asylu/5212038

 

http://www.ibtimes.com/refugee-children-australian-detention-centers-subjected-sexual-abuse-denied-rights-1813728

 

 But I do think the way these people in the UK responded was unnecessary. Why would they think they had to apologize to Italians because of the BREXIT outcome? Why are people ostensibly thinking people like Boris Johnson when he motivating leaving the EU said he plans to export any non-British people from the UK 

 

So even though I understand real grief they are unintentionally making the situation worse by suggesting the BREXIT supporters are racists ...this part below summarizes my concern

 

Our social media feeds were full of similar anger and grief.  Tearful emojis littered posts about people feeling physically ill and shocked by the result. Friends outside of Europe commiserated and asked “WTF Britain?”. Others in the European Union wondered if their futures were uncertain too.

 

So what this tells me is these social media feeds and people are happy to admit there ignorance because for weeks the BREXIT supporters have explained and evangelized there views, it was no secret and the justification  easily accessible. So anyone who really cared and wanted to understand this  could just have researched this information but they refuse to accept responsibility for there own laziness 

 

And this last paragraph must be the most irritating, so old people my age cant possibly be looking at this BREXIT exit strategically ...no we must be racist, sexist and homophobic 

 

We worry that those same populists who were so key to this revolt will use their new found influence and justification to start targeting other freedoms the EU has been integral to achieving: LGBTI and women’s rights in particular.

Edited June 26, 2016 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDdLxTXBaAY

Probably best reason to leave EU that I have heard. 

 

 

 

Don't know if video is real or fake, but at least it is bit funny

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDdLxTXBaAY

Probably best reason to leave EU that I have heard. 

 

 

 

Don't know if video is real or fake, but at least it is bit funny

 

Its not like you to post these types of video because this is just a cruel generalization, that women comes as incredibly stupid ....seriously I feel embarrassed for her

 

 

She is the worst type of person to somehow represent the intellectual  reasoning for BREXIT

 

So again this type of video will be used by people to say things like "  ha ha...look how stupid people in the UK are "

 

Do you think its fair ....yes she is hot but this is not about her looks 

[Nonek]

Mr Hitler is on the case with astonishing rapidity as per usual:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2D8MB5s8Jg