WM2 ending - question about gods (spoilers).

[Stoner]

There are probably duplicate topics, but I have rather specific questions here... After vanilla game ending, I had some solid views about what gods are and how they are represented. WM2 levelled it to the ground, now I have simply no idea what those creatures are and really confused...

 

From dialogue with Ondra we find out that Abydon was killed by... moon to the face (original, no argument). And the entire temple is basically his giant skeleton. Considerng we're talking to him in Teir Evron and Ondra gave some hints of him being, uhm... rebuilt? And he doesn't know what happened to him and doesn't even know about the Eyeless... From this dialogue I also got hints of Ondra and Abydon being "connected", artificial engwithian constructs fall in love... like, really?

On the other note, if they are constructs, how could one leave organic skeleton behind? Were they creatures of flesh and blood? If yes, how could such massive beings survive on rather tiny planet? Was there an era of giants or something?

 

Considetng tales of Saint's War, Waidwen, a human farmer was possessed by Eothas (edit: put it the wrong way), and he retained his size, right? Is there any notes about extent of "divine" powers? Because on high scale it doesn't make any sense anymore... There might be some lore stuff about it I might miss, so enlighting me on this would be appreciated.

 

Again, returning to dialogue with Ondra, it's unbelievable how such advanced creatures can be so simplistic, developing attachments, meddling in small human affairs, fixated on silliest things so hard without strong backup philosophy, coming down to childish "I want to!" as main driving motivation, and making up sloppy attempts to murder kith (like our Watcher)... And Ondra DID know that he is the ONLY chance for them to stop Woedica, right? Does it make sense?

 

All those speeches about "we don't intervene in kith civilization" is making less and less sense... Building Eyeless, and than taking them over to destroy half of the world, Saint's War again. This all feels real bad, like big powerfull lying overlords. If that's what writers are telling us, I suspect PoE2 will be fullscale war of kith against the gods in face of externination one side or another, because right now it feels like those "gods" are scheming to destroy kith.

 

P.S. Is there a possibility of our PC death in crystal chamber? I didn't seem to do anything specific in text-quest and he survived like it was prescripted...

Edited April 6, 2016 by Stoner

[house2fly]

I figured Abydon basically just incarnated himself into a giant because he thought a big rock would need a big person to stop it.  Or maybe the gods did just walk the earth as giants in the old days.

Also yeah, they do seem to have some strange limitations in what they think and do.  Ondra commanded the Eyeless to destroy anyone who knew about the White Forge... after you turned it on and the news of the White Forge spread all across the Dyrwood.  It's not until you point it out that she realises the scale of what would happen if they're not stopped.  Eothas knew about Woedica's plot to steal the souls of the Dyrwood to restore herself to power... but wasn't able to just tell the other gods, and had to march on the Dyrwood himself to stop it.  This is probably done for the sake of narrative, but it works well with the ending reveal that the gods are basically AIs.

 

Finally you can indeed die in the crystal cave.  I had low Constitution, no diving helmet, hadn't sent the souls of the Pargrun back to the Wheel, and don't know how to make Ondra save you herself, so I got a special ending slide about how I died stopping the Eyeless and the credits rolled.

[jsaving]

In the case of Ondra and Abydon, the non-interference pact to which deities supposedly adhere was stretched to the breaking point, for sure.  Ondra fired a WMD at the planet while claiming all deities but Abydon at least implicitly supported her decision -- a claim that seems at least partially vindicated by the fact that no one but Abydon lifted a finger to stop it.  Then after Abydon "succeeded", Ondra initiated a memory wipe to serve her own interests and ensure kith would lose a protecter/preserver, which the other deities must have known about ("hey Abydon, why'd you suddenly drop the preservation portfolio?") yet did nothing to address. 

 

Waidwen/Eothas is an even clearer example.  Toward the beginning of the game, you're told that Waidwen/Eothas turned to the dark side fifteen years ago and justified his warmongering with the lie that he was invading the Dyrwood in order to save it.  Provided you have Durance in your party, however, you eventually learn that Waidwen's seemingly implausible claim was 100% correct and that the entire "turned to the dark side" narrative was fabricated by Woedica/Magran to knock divine do-gooder Eothas off the playing field and then Purge his followers for their mutual benefit.  The other deities again stood by and did nothing, this time because they feared the collective lie about their divinity would be exposed if Waidwen/Eothas succeeded in stopping Thaos.  

 

Given all of that, you're right to say the non-interference pact is more appearance than reality.  (And if Eothas really is marking Chosen in preparation for his eventual reappearance, as is hinted in one of the new legendary stronghold dilemmas, is it any wonder he wouldn't be too keen to announce his rebirth to the rest of the pantheon?)   

Edited April 7, 2016 by jsaving

[Crucis]

Honestly, I found the whole Ondra dropping a small moon on Eora thing utterly laughable.  This isn't about doubting or questioning her power to do it (not looking for any sort of religious argument here).  It's about the idea that you could drop a "small moon" on a planet and not kill every friggin' living thing on said planet, not to mention risking the destruction of said planet as well.  I mean, really, supposedly the dinosaurs were all wiped out due to a mere comet strike.  And we're talking about a "small moon" here.  A "small moon" wouldn't just wipe out a city or a small country.  It'd almost certainly wipe out all life on the planet and quite possibly the planet itself.

 

Before these devs start thinking about dropping moons on players again, they might want to talk to someone knowledgeable on such things about the effects of doing so would have.

[anameforobsidian]

Honestly, I found the whole Ondra dropping a small moon on Eora thing utterly laughable.  This isn't about doubting or questioning her power to do it (not looking for any sort of religious argument here).  It's about the idea that you could drop a "small moon" on a planet and not kill every friggin' living thing on said planet, not to mention risking the destruction of said planet as well.  I mean, really, supposedly the dinosaurs were all wiped out due to a mere comet strike.  And we're talking about a "small moon" here.  A "small moon" wouldn't just wipe out a city or a small country.  It'd almost certainly wipe out all life on the planet and quite possibly the planet itself.

 

Before these devs start thinking about dropping moons on players again, they might want to talk to someone knowledgeable on such things about the effects of doing so would have.

 

They could have used the word moon because their society is too primitive to have words for other astrological bodies.

[house2fly]

Honestly, I found the whole Ondra dropping a small moon on Eora thing utterly laughable. This isn't about doubting or questioning her power to do it (not looking for any sort of religious argument here). It's about the idea that you could drop a "small moon" on a planet and not kill every friggin' living thing on said planet, not to mention risking the destruction of said planet as well. I mean, really, supposedly the dinosaurs were all wiped out due to a mere comet strike. And we're talking about a "small moon" here. A "small moon" wouldn't just wipe out a city or a small country. It'd almost certainly wipe out all life on the planet and quite possibly the planet itself.

 

Before these devs start thinking about dropping moons on players again, they might want to talk to someone knowledgeable on such things about the effects of doing so would have.

it's possible that Obsidian have the minimal knowledge of astronomy required to know what happens when you slam a moon into a planet but chose to have the character in their story not know it.

[JerekKruger]

Given the behaviours attributed to the Olympian pantheon I don't think it's strange that the Eoran gods are often petty and short sighted. Remember that, as I understand it, all of the gods were formed by amalgamating lots of kith souls so I imagine many of the flaws of kith would remain. I think the difficulty comes from the fact that (probably) everyone on these boards is used to the notion of a god being that of a monotheistic god in the mould of the Abrahamic religions and, even if you're consciously aware that this isn't what the Eoran gods are, it's hard to completely abandon your preconceptions about godhood. Some things to remember about the Eoran gods: they definitely did not create the world since they were created after it; they are definitely not omnipotent since; and it seems unlikely that they are omniscient.

[anameforobsidian]

They're definitely not omniscient, Magran and Durance alone prove that.  But also the gods' blindness to Woedica's plot and Eothas' response.  Also the Wael ending.

[InsaneCommander]

What I don't understand is why Eothas would be ok with the moon dropping and revolt against Woedica later for a smaller thing. Maybe he doesn't care about the hollowborn, he just didn't want to see Woedica become more powerful?

 

They speak as if she is restoring her power, so she did have more in the past and the other gods did something about it. Who knows how much of their history we don't know.
 

Sorry to necro...

[Sannom]

If the people that Ondra tried to eradicate were the Engwythians, it stands to reason that Woedica was their main ally and that the other gods wanted her to lose as much power as possible. Also, as the God of Rebirth, maybe that Eothas wanted to see the aftermath and how civilization would come back from that cataclysmic event.

[InsaneCommander]

We "saw" Abiddon creating the Eyeless so he had that body for some time before the moon fell. If Woedica didn't try to stop it, either she was confident that it wouldn't be a problem (maybe she still had more power than the others), she knew Abiddon would act or she understood that trying to stop it would be risky. I assume that giving himself a body, Abiddon accepted to be more vulnerable.

 

Or Woedica didn't care about losing the Engwithans. She can't be a goddess of revenge if there is nothing to be avenged, just like Skaen wanted the souls to be given to Woedica. He didn't want to end his slavery (or anyone else's, probably). He can't be a god of the oppressed if there is nobody to oppress others...

[Harry Easter]

I think this shows how ambivalent the gods really are.

 

They stand for eternal principles, but they are still their own creatures. They are powerful, but not wise. They make mistakes, don't talk to each other, believe to be above everything, but actually they are petty and cruel. They want to use their power, but hate their bounds, so that's why they kill some of their own (Eothas and Abydon)while still trying to preserve parts of them, because the ideas they represent give them power about people.

 

Maybe the White March was the beginning of the end and over the course of further installments we will see how they try to kill each other off, because nothing is eternal, even the gods. So everything could fit, but we have to wait for PoE 2. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Harry Easter