tank advice

[Boeroer]

A little thing I want to add concerning defenses and stats: If you wear a shield and use Weapon & Shield Style you can dump DEX and PER a little bit more more because your shield will give you extra reflex. This way you can balance your defenses despite having a dent in your stat spread.

 

Another thing: if you take PER 18 and use a large shield you will have the same ACC as if you had PER 10 and used a small shield. The difference is that with the large shield you will also have a lot more reflex and deflection. There are no other disadvantages when wearing a large shield than -8 ACC.  What I want so say: you get more defense from your stat points when wearing a large shield and raising PER - without gimping your offense too much. In fact you're more flexible: If times are tough you can switch to the big shield, but when you want to use an ability that has to land or if you want to cast a spell you quickly switch to a weapon setup with a small shield and suddenly have +8 ACC - then switch back to large shield. So you might want to consider wearing a large shield and raise PER instead wearing a small shield and leave PER as it is.

[Zeraili]

Thanks for all those tips i will make my gamę much easier.

Regarding rogue race i like bonuses for dex and per from elf and litle dr boost. Orlans would be great but i jest hate how they look:/ from build side ill go more balanced way with less might and more resolve as You mentioned dmg difference is not as high:)

Ill go with druid tank and monk tank than add ranger but i was thinking about adding second druid modification of this tanky build for like shapeshift melee version with storms that You mentioned in one topic as possible strong build.

Ill use this shield trick it sounds great:)

[Sifjar]

There are 2 small shields which can buff whole party. 

[JerekKruger]

There are 2 small shields which can buff whole party. 

 

One requires a Paladin though right?

 

EDIT: not that that's a bad thing, I love Paladins, just checking.

Edited March 9, 2016 by JerekKruger

[Raven Darkholme]

 

There are 2 small shields which can buff whole party. 

 

One requires a Paladin though right?

 

EDIT: not that that's a bad thing, I love Paladins, just checking.

 

he 2nd one is not for paladins only, but you need to defeat Adra Dragon to get it.

[Sifjar]

Ye-ye. Forget it since there are no paladins in this thread and second one is high end content, so no point to discuss those shields.

 

But is that Overbearing Guard soo good? Can't really test it atm. Massacre in tavert cant give 'stress' test

And what is bonus to acc for disengagement attacks? or is it like 100% hit? Never actually cared about it. Can't run a proper test atm to check combat log for OG hits.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Sifjar

[KDubya]

Ye-ye. Forget it since there are no paladins in this thread and second one is high end content, so no point to discuss those shields.

 

But is that Overbearing Guard soo good? Can't really test it atm. Massacre in tavert cant give 'stress' test

And what is bonus to acc for disengagement attacks? or is it like 100% hit? Never actually cared about it. Can't run a proper test atm to check combat log for OG hits.

 

In my limited playtime with Overbearing (no dedicated testing, just anecdotal observation and recollection), if an enemy disengages from your Fighter he is most likely getting put on his ass unless he has a really good Fortitude. The thing is most enemies won't disengage from a Fighter built for damage who also has Overbearing and maybe a few +engagement abilities or weapons. If you made some sort of low damage "Annoying Man" build that the enemy had no fear of, it'd probably proc more as they'd run past your non-threatening Fighter. Using a Reach weapon would be good as it would allow you to engage over a larger area.

 

With the large (not sure of specific) boost to accuracy from a disengagement attack, you could propbably replicate the effect with the use of Tall Grass which prones on crit. 

 

A lot of the enemies who really like to go after your weaker members such as enemy Barbarians and Monks also have abilities that break engagement , thus defeating the entire strategy.

 

I think that the Overbearing Talent should be combined with Defender instead of being two separate abilities.

[Teioh_White]

It really should be combined; engagement is a very weak tool as is, and it would help a slight bit if two talents aimed at trying to make it somewhat better could be combined. A bit of a hefty opportunity cost to spend two ability points to boost something that frequently won't even come up in a batter, and if it does come up is largely outside the players control.

[Sifjar]

Did some random WM2 run with random tanking fighter.

Got 73 accuracy. OG used 111 accuracy for prone attack and 100 accuracy for melee attack during proc.

What can i say.. It's not always working for some reason. Also there are for example oozes who can simply engage your tank, but use range attacks on rest of your party..

[Teioh_White]

Did some random WM2 run with random tanking fighter.

Got 73 accuracy. OG used 111 accuracy for prone attack and 100 accuracy for melee attack during proc.

What can i say.. It's not always working for some reason. Also there are for example oozes who can simply engage your tank, but use range attacks on rest of your party..

 

Yeah, engagement is just a really negligible gameplay mechanic. Which is kinda funny with all the whining about it I remember reading around launch, as if it was something that was seriously warping the gameplay, rather than something that by and large has no impact on an encounter.

[Zeraili]

You can use this build from KDubya for a monk tank, it's effective, sturdy, deals a lot of damage and is fun to play: The Juggernaut

 

By the way a Ranger with Stormcaller, a monk with Lighning Strikes and a Druid with the storm spells have great synergies.

Regarding synergies in my party is there a build/class that would be close to rogue in terms of dmg and have better synergy with other classes? Maybe like melee wizard or other more offensive druid/monk or barb?

 I would be interested in melee build that would maybe use sabres , this Resolution and Purgatory that i read about i would like to try it:)

But im starting to not be sure is my rogue is most fun choice for that party.

[Ymarsakar]

Lagufaeth? There's tons of them and they are all dangerous. Bounties: same. Crystal spiders: also. Ogres, too. Enemies in the Battery: a lot. There are a buch of enemies that come in great numbers and are dangerous enough for your squishies. One sticky tank alone can't glue them all in place. Don't get me wrong: it'S a good thing that this works - but I'm not convinced that one is enough.

 

By the way: Chanter tanks with a damaging aura also draw a lot of attention. I rarely see any mobster leave a chanter tank once they engaged. Maybe they classifiy them as caster and want to bring them down asap. Same with druid tanks. So maybe a mixture would be nice.

 

It's some kind of AI routine that prioritizes people who attack/cast/debuff a target. It state changes them. It also happens for people who do flank attacks, that have lower endurance for some reason or lower deflection. Like for example, my rogue with shield doesn't usually attract aggro I noticed, even when flanking an enemy. But my barbarian does when flanking with my monk, against lurkers and trolls. And it usually happens right as the barbarian's endurance goes lower than the monk, or maybe it was higher, but lower deflection.

 

But when my rogue does the hobbling special attack, then the ogres turn around on the rogue, because of the debuff and or damage they were taking.

 

So the aoe attack from the chanter is not only an aoe ability, but it also procs a debuff.

 

To Zera:

 

To replace a rogue, a ranger is usually the ideal candidate, especially for people who like a pet dps/tank and who like shooting from range. A druid with swift modal and dual sabres, flanking with the pet, can be pretty interesting for those that don't want just range.

 

The other options are barbarian/monk/cipher. Monk is closer to the rogue playstyle, shutting down single enemies that you prioritize.

 

The one thing I noticed that tends to make enemies disengage is aoe debuffs, aoe damage, and just sheer damage. It might also apply to healing, although that was hard to test for.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Zeraili]

How this druid with sabres and maybe simmilar to this tanky druid build Batsh!t Crazy, but more dmg oriented would be close to dmg that can be done by rogue?  what would be stats distribution for him?

[DreamWayfarer]

How this druid with sabres and maybe simmilar to this tanky druid build Batsh!t Crazy, but more dmg oriented would be close to dmg that can be done by rogue?

No. The only way a Druid can deal terrifyingly big melee damage is by spiritshifting.

[Ymarsakar]

How this druid with sabres and maybe simmilar to this tanky druid build Batsh!t Crazy, but more dmg oriented would be close to dmg that can be done by rogue?  what would be stats distribution for him?

 

 

Druid's dps is in the lightning spells, aoe spells, and shapeshift. His weapon is more... more of support thing for his other activities.

 

Attack speed makes you cast multiple spells faster, for example. Shields help keep you uninterrupted, use a small shield for no accuracy malus to your spells.

 

The only people I might use sabres with would be rogue/cipher/ maybe melee ranger build. A sabre on fighter/chanter is only a stop gap, it's really a way to bypass higher DR in early game. Every extra max damage on the roll, is an extra damage that could pass through enemy DR.

 

Sabres on monks... maybe, if an enemy is immune to crash and I have dual sabres to proc torment's, but it would prevent me from using fist/shield combo. ALthough recently I don't really need the shield at middle game. Not with a chanter/fighter plus a priest/druid.

 

As for stats on druid, hiravias has a good spread. I like more balanced spreads now. A little bit of min maxing on INT, sure, but the other stats don't need too much min maxing for a druid.

 

13-14 might, 12 con, 12-13 dex, 14 per, 15-16 INT, 11 resolve can be pretty good. I just guesstimate the numbers, they aren't exact. Of course if you get good at it, you might drop con to 9 or 8, pump it into might, get a higher resolve to not get interrupted, and more dex for shapeshifting and fast spellcasting.

 

Personally, I would go with rogue for sabres. Get escape/backstab/coordinated positioning, and it can really help out with certain fights. I've always wanted an assassin in certain fights, and the cipher doesn't easily fulfill that role. The monk and rogue do.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Blunderboss]

Assuming i want to use 2 tanks for my party Paladin and Fighter which one would better equipeed with retaliation items and built as retaliation tank ? Are there any posts about this on forum i tried search but hardly found anything

[Zeraili]

Thanks for advice, what would be great 2H build? maybe like melee mage or something totaly different with huge dmg that can stand in second row and kill everything and will be fun to play? I saw This lady of Pain build and it looks great how good it would be in killing boss or trash mobs when compared to barb or melee mage or other melee builds (this spiritshift druid is ok?) ? Im looking for something fun and with potential to stand behind my druid and monk tank.

[Ymarsakar]

Assuming i want to use 2 tanks for my party Paladin and Fighter which one would better equipeed with retaliation items and built as retaliation tank ? Are there any posts about this on forum i tried search but hardly found anything

 

Either one could work, it's just a matter of managing the inventory items and slots that give retaliation. Well, also helps if it can have some engagement talents and abilities, to hold enemies better. In that sense, fighter + overbearing guard +1 engagement item/talent would probably work better as the paladin can lose engagement when it uses special abilities. So you may not get retaliation from paladin tank, if you keep using the abilities, not do any damage, etc. Until the 11+ levels, the paladin has no aoe damage abilities if I recall, other than perhaps from some of the special orders. 

 

Also retaliation is affected by DR bypass for melee talent/modal. 

 

 

Thanks for advice, what would be great 2H build? maybe like melee mage or something totaly different with huge dmg that can stand in second row and kill everything and will be fun to play? I saw This lady of Pain build and it looks great how good it would be in killing boss or trash mobs when compared to barb or melee mage or other melee builds (this spiritshift druid is ok?) ? Im looking for something fun and with potential to stand behind my druid and monk tank.

 

Martial classes like barbarian, sometimes even rogue, can do a significant damage from the backrow. At the expense of some flexibility and speed. Tall Pike from Dyrford with Rogue's hit to crit, or barbarian's carnage with high accuracy, is one such build.

 

These days, unless the 2H weapon has something special on it, I use crossbows and arbalests instead. Does more alpha strike than 2H weapons and I don't need to micro them in melee. The sabre has (nearly) the same base damage as a 2H weapon, even. For a much better weapon speed and recovery with armors.]

 

The barbarian's carnage is like a mini AOE that is constantly on with every hit. So if you use a pike, it can stab at an enemy in the center, and then damage everybody else around them. And it applies proc on hit/crit effects as well.

 

For some variety and spot tanking or spot dps from the backrow, I use the wizard. Buff the wizard with mirror images, cast citzal's spirit lance and maybe some Llengrath, and you got a pretty good second line dps. The lance is level 5, I think, and has reach like a quarterstaff or pike. Use 3rd level Alacrity speed buff for +50%, for really good dps, just cast that first as it makes it faster to chain spells. The wizard can also cast blight spell, for ranged aoe dps, especially if you take the Blast talent. These are high duration spells, so the longer they are on, the more dps the wizard can do. Plus, they can cast other spells.

 

The Lady/Lord of Pain fighter builds can also use a pike from front or second row, of course. I don't know what would be fun for you, you'd have to test it out. You can switch out party members in game to test things out on enemies and friendlies, then just reload. Even make custom npcs with console money. I like to start fights at taverns to get the in combat going forever, then have two custom NPCs slug it out against the other and check how it works.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Blunderboss]

Either one could work, it's just a matter of managing the inventory items and slots that give retaliation. Well, also helps if it can have some engagement talents and abilities, to hold enemies better. In that sense, fighter + overbearing guard +1 engagement item/talent would probably work better as the paladin can lose engagement when it uses special abilities. So you may not get retaliation from paladin tank, if you keep using the abilities, not do any damage, etc. Until the 11+ levels, the paladin has no aoe damage abilities if I recall, other than perhaps from some of the special orders.

fighter seems to be the choice then , thanks for advice , what do you think would be a proper fighter build ( stats and talents ) for main tank ( hireling from the inn so can be min maxed ) who is using as much retaliation and engagement bonuses as he can to keep enemies on him and retaliate as much as he can ?

Havent played fighters in poe yet always went with pala+chanter for tanks and i have no idea how to build one .

Edited March 11, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Zeraili]

I just always have problems with stats distribution for melee mage, always thinks that im doing it wrong. Could You advice how stats should be distributed or just what stats could be dumped in case of min/maxing or just what would be stats that i should increase?  Is there any reliable build for WM2, with key talents?

[KDubya]

I just always have problems with stats distribution for melee mage, always thinks that im doing it wrong. Could You advice how stats should be distributed or just what stats could be dumped in case of min/maxing or just what would be stats that i should increase?  Is there any reliable build for WM2, with key talents?

 

 For a Wizard you want a good Perception so that you reliably hit. If you will be in melee range I would not dump any stat. Might and Intellect are also very useful, Dexterity loses some luster when you gain access to a permanent Alacrity when you Master level third spells, but until then it is very important.

 

Just remember that you can't be great at everything. Think of a triangle with Damage, Accuracy, and Area/Duration - then pick two and build towards that goal.

 

 

 

 

Either one could work, it's just a matter of managing the inventory items and slots that give retaliation. Well, also helps if it can have some engagement talents and abilities, to hold enemies better. In that sense, fighter + overbearing guard +1 engagement item/talent would probably work better as the paladin can lose engagement when it uses special abilities. So you may not get retaliation from paladin tank, if you keep using the abilities, not do any damage, etc. Until the 11+ levels, the paladin has no aoe damage abilities if I recall, other than perhaps from some of the special orders.

fighter seems to be the choice then , thanks for advice , what do you think would be a proper fighter build ( stats and talents ) for main tank ( hireling from the inn so can be min maxed ) who is using as much retaliation and engagement bonuses as he can to keep enemies on him and retaliate as much as he can ?

Havent played fighters in poe yet always went with pala+chanter for tanks and i have no idea how to build one .

 

 

For a tank you should really look at a Chanter, they bring a lot to a team while a Fighter does not really make a team better, there are no real synergies from a Fighter. For that reason I'd also take a Paladin over a Fighter in all cases. The ability for auras, heals, exhortations and massive AoE is just so far superior it is not even a question.

[Crucis]

 

I just always have problems with stats distribution for melee mage, always thinks that im doing it wrong. Could You advice how stats should be distributed or just what stats could be dumped in case of min/maxing or just what would be stats that i should increase?  Is there any reliable build for WM2, with key talents?

 

 For a Wizard you want a good Perception so that you reliably hit. If you will be in melee range I would not dump any stat. Might and Intellect are also very useful, Dexterity loses some luster when you gain access to a permanent Alacrity when you Master level third spells, but until then it is very important.

 

Just remember that you can't be great at everything. Think of a triangle with Damage, Accuracy, and Area/Duration - then pick two and build towards that goal.

 

 

 

 

Either one could work, it's just a matter of managing the inventory items and slots that give retaliation. Well, also helps if it can have some engagement talents and abilities, to hold enemies better. In that sense, fighter + overbearing guard +1 engagement item/talent would probably work better as the paladin can lose engagement when it uses special abilities. So you may not get retaliation from paladin tank, if you keep using the abilities, not do any damage, etc. Until the 11+ levels, the paladin has no aoe damage abilities if I recall, other than perhaps from some of the special orders.

fighter seems to be the choice then , thanks for advice , what do you think would be a proper fighter build ( stats and talents ) for main tank ( hireling from the inn so can be min maxed ) who is using as much retaliation and engagement bonuses as he can to keep enemies on him and retaliate as much as he can ?

Havent played fighters in poe yet always went with pala+chanter for tanks and i have no idea how to build one .

 

 

For a tank you should really look at a Chanter, they bring a lot to a team while a Fighter does not really make a team better, there are no real synergies from a Fighter. For that reason I'd also take a Paladin over a Fighter in all cases. The ability for auras, heals, exhortations and massive AoE is just so far superior it is not even a question.

 

 

Some thoughts in reply.

 

A.  On spell sword wizards, I wonder if melee wizards can't get away with a little less than super high INT.  After all, if their primary goal is buffing themselves for melee combat, area of effect isn't going to be all that important.  Duration might be important, but I think that if one checks out the various spells that might be important to a melee mage, it's possible that the durations would be sufficient even if your wizzy's INT was, say, 14 or so.  But it does seem to me that perception is key to wizards, melee or otherwise. 

 

For all the value of  greater damage that Might brings or the greater AoE and duration that INT brings, for offensive spells, none of that matters if you can't actually HIT the target!  And that requires a good PER.  Yes, you can boost PER with the Arcane Accuracy spell or potion, but I wouldn't build a wizard who was depending on those to make up for a bad PER score.  IMO, Arcane Accuracy should be more for making certain that your Accuracy is high enough to make a hit nearly certain, not to cover up for a terrible PER score.

 

 

B. On tanks, honestly I think that I prefer plain ol' fighters in this role.  It doesn't matter that much to me that they can't do the things a pally can do, for example.  What a fighter brings to the table is extreme competence in his role as the team's primary melee combatant.  At high levels, the Fighter ability, into the fray, is great for pulling enemies right onto the fighter.  And it's great when those enemies are squishies that want no part of melee with a nasty fighter.  (It has been particularly amusing in my part with Eder and Pallegina in the front row when they both charge an enemy, and Eder pulls an enemy towards him, only to have that enemy stopped right on Pallegina's greatsword!  Ouch!  Now that's some team work!)

 

That said, having a pally in the mix is a great idea, whether it's to stand beside the fighter as the #2 tank or perhaps in the second row as an off-tank, healer, debuffer, etc.  IMO, Chanters actually may be slightly better in some ways as #2 tanks than pallies.  Why?  Because they're more low maintenance in combat.  If you have your pally in the second row, it's easier for him to use his pally abilities with less risk of being interrupted, whereas chanters don't cast their invocations all that often in battle.  And also by being in the second rank (but ready to move to the front), the pally should still be more than close enough for his auras to assist the front liners.

 

In my own party, I've been switching between having Pallegina and Kana in these two roles (i.e. #2 tank and second line off tank).  The reason is mostly due to what enemies were being faced in any given battle.  When facing the Eyeless, I put Pallegina in the front row with her Redeemer, and kept Kana in support.  But against more general enemies, Kana can be more than sufficient as a #2 tank next to Eder.

[Raven Darkholme]

Int is absolutely essential for wizards because of duration.

There's plenty of things pally can tank and fighter can't, but it matters less with a party ofc since you get external buffs and enemies die fast.

[Blunderboss]

Well my tanks will be Fighter main tank ( Overbearing Guard , Retaliation ) and Pala Secondary Tank + Some damage (for Bleak Walker ) that is set , i played twice already with chanter as one of the tanks , i find them boring troughout the game but they were kinda nice for first Playtroughs but now i want something different . Original question still stands : what would be nice build for Main Tank Fighter hireling using overbearing guard and retaliation items and abilities as much as i can stack on him ( Stats , abilities , talents ? )

Edited March 11, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Zeraili]

I will go with monk(juggernaut)+druid(or paladin/chanter) tanks and than something more dmg oriented like spiritshift druid, ranger or maybe this lady of pain fighter build. Now im looking into options for dps. Just dont know what would be great dps to this tanks composition. Just looking for something with nice synergies but not a big fan of pure casters or full ranged (maybe besides trying ranger)