tank advice

[Zeraili]

As I never played with other tanks than fighter I wanted to ask what classess offers as much crowd control as possible, or works the best with rogue+ ranger? How much CC offers monks and barbs AS tanks that could be usefull for rogue DPS? Every advice would be great

[Boeroer]

Build a druid tank with Returning + Relentless Storm like this one: Batsh!t Crazy

I'm serious, it works and is highly effective. Just make sure he's not the only sturdy fronliner you have and that you start casting before the enemies reach you - because if he get's beaten all the time he will also be interrupted and the casting will take forever.

Use another tanky character with a shield like a chanter or a paladin. A monk will also be great if you know how to use him.

 

One single tank will not work anymore. Enemies will just run past him towards your flimsier party members. 

[Zeraili]

Im interested in this druid build, it looks great and probably have great potential.

Ofcourse i was thinking about second tank and this where it start to be tricky because i would think that it could be some fun class but i have no idea how to build like tank monk that would be effective and dont know if its viable tank choice. Regarding Paladin or chanter i would prefer something that could do some dmg not only controll battlefield.

Like:

Rogue

Druid tank

Ranger

Second tank

[Boeroer]

You can use this build from KDubya for a monk tank, it's effective, sturdy, deals a lot of damage and is fun to play: The Juggernaut

 

By the way a Ranger with Stormcaller, a monk with Lighning Strikes and a Druid with the storm spells have great synergies.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Boeroer

[Zeraili]

Im just wondering how melee rogue will fare in such party. Especially that i like to play him as dual wielding. How hard it would be to enable him and let him DPS and not die

[Boeroer]

Well just let the druid cast his storm(s), then let the tanks engage and then flank with the rogue. You can alsways put him in thick armor if he goes down to fast. 

[Livegood118]

Just some anecdotal experience from me but my Chanter tank in my last playthrough was absolutely baller (some of the invocations/chants are paraphrased):

 

Chanter – Moon Godlike

 

Hatchet/Strike Hard, Little Saviour

 

MIG: 18

CON: 11

DEX: 03

PER: 15

INT: 18

RES: 12

 

Invocations:

 

Reny Daret's Ghosts

Damage Reduction Reducer

The Thunder Rolled: AoE Stun

White Wurms Writhed: AoE Explosion

AoE Paralyze

Urdle and Gurdel

Aoe Revive

Seven Nights She Waited While the White Winds Wept

Frost Jump Spell

 

Chants:

 

Run Speed Chant

Fort and Will Chant

Come, Come Soft Winds

Lo, Their Endless Host

Dull the Edge, blunt the Point

The Dragon Thrashed

Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr

Old Siec Would Not Rest

With all your strength, you slay the Beast

 

Weapon and Shield

Superior Deflection

Cautious Attack

Secrets of Rime

Ancient Memory

Beloved Spirits

[Whatever]

[Whatever]

 

Dex can be reduced a lot because your damage comes passively from chants. The 2nd level AoE paralyse spell is pretty godly now and one of the best sources of paralysis in the game – with brisk recitation you'll be able to pop it every 8 seconds at max level and very few enemies are immune to it (other than primordials iirc). I'd use the dragon thrashed in most ordinary mob encounters for great damage and then for smaller packs of stronger enemies Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr. The Frost spell that shoots out seven beams is really useful against large enemies (e.g. dragons) and the AoE revive invocation saved my ass more times than I can count. I think before you do a big damage invocation you can quickly switch to Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr for +25% damage added on via the Fire Lash (which can then be increased with Scion of Flame if that tickles your fancy).

Edited March 8, 2016 by Livegood118

[Raven Darkholme]

Build a druid tank with Returning + Relentless Storm like this one: Batsh!t Crazy

I'm serious, it works and is highly effective. Just make sure he's not the only sturdy fronliner you have and that you start casting before the enemies reach you - because if he get's beaten all the time he will also be interrupted and the casting will take forever.

Use another tanky character with a shield like a chanter or a paladin. A monk will also be great if you know how to use him.

 

One single tank will not work anymore. Enemies will just run past him towards your flimsier party members. 

I experienced, that the AI is not as great as everybody praises it.

If you keep squishies in stealth and wait till all melees engage, there is only one type of melee enemy that will engage them, monks (or whatever they are) with that leaping attack. (where they kinda fall down from the sky )

Tested this with a party of 3 and 2 melee + one squishy cipher (3 con and res) and sometimes it's ridicoulus how close the cipher is to a huge mob of different melees and not get engaged.

In that Bleak Walker quest of WM 2 I even had to watch the bleak walker disengage to cast healing chain and then run back and engage my paladin again...

[Boeroer]

It strongly depends on the type of enemy and type of encounter. For example during the Penhelm Fight all those Fighters want to desperately reach your squishies.

 

In other fights - with Ogres for example, it's not a problem. I think it also depends how fast they can move. Slow enemies don't disengange so often while monks, Lagufaeth and Zealous-Charge-Paladins like Xaurip Champoins and so on are more likely to make a run for your backline. At least that's my impression.

 

However - one single tank with 5 glass cannons just doesn't work.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Boeroer

[Livegood118]

It strongly depends on the type of enemy and type of encounter. For example during the Penhelm Fight all those Fighters want to desperately reach your squishies.

 

In other fights - with Ogres for example, it's not a problem. I think it also depends how fast they can move. Slow enemies don't disengange so often while monks, Lagufaeth and Zealous-Charge-Paladins like Xaurip Champoins and so on are more likely to make a run for your backline. At least that's my impression.

 

However - one single tank with 5 glass cannons just doesn't work.

Very true.

 

Since 2.0 the "pure tank" is pretty much useless – save a few very, very specific builds – and I find it's generally better to aim for balanced offence/defence which can be satisfied by using a good shield with sword and shield style and maybe superior deflection.

 

I still make most of my ranged characters glass cannons (7/10 CON and 3 RES) though will make sure they have defence abilities and a hatchet/shield on switch if things get ropey.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Livegood118

[Raven Darkholme]

It strongly depends on the type of enemy and type of encounter. For example during the Penhelm Fight all those Fighters want to desperately reach your squishies.

 

In other fights - with Ogres for example, it's not a problem. I think it also depends how fast they can move. Slow enemies don't disengange so often while monks, Lagufaeth and Zealous-Charge-Paladins like Xaurip Champoins and so on are more likely to make a run for your backline. At least that's my impression.

 

However - one single tank with 5 glass cannons just doesn't work.

Unless they are all ciphers with Echo.

[Boeroer]

^Hehe - and they team up with a trailer monk.

[Zeraili]

Thanks for help:) its decided than. I would go with rogue + ranger as DPS and druid monk tanks. If i could add one more question regarding ranger and rogue builds. Should i min/max them like max might,dex,per, and dump int and resolve?

[Raven Darkholme]

^Hehe - and they team up with a trailer monk.

Oh I think Zealous charge paladin does fairly well, too.^^

[KDubya]

Thanks for help:) its decided than. I would go with rogue + ranger as DPS and druid monk tanks. If i could add one more question regarding ranger and rogue builds. Should i min/max them like max might,dex,per, and dump int and resolve?

 You want to be careful of dumping both Intellect and Resolve due to the huge penalty to your Will defense. You don't want your glass cannon super damaging ranged attacker being the first guy charmed every fight

 

If I dump one stat I'll pump the other at a 1:1 to keep the defense even.

 

For Rogues I like to dump Intellect to a four and max out Resolve. Rogues don't have much for duration based or area abilities so the low intellect does not hamper much. A four Intellect is just enough with +2 from food, +2 item and Dexterity 16+ to be able to perma-prone someone with We Toki while wearing Leather Armor and no speed enhancing. The high Resolve gives you good intimidating type dialogues and more deflection. 

 

Might on a Rogue can be left at ten with little affect on your damage. Dexterity, and Perception are better investments to really push the envelope for getting criticals.

 

Rangers can also do well with a dumped Intellect, but they suffer more for it. If you will be going with Stormcaller I would not dump intellect, it also hampers Stunning Shots. A fully ranged Ranger could do well with dumping Resolve and pumping Intellect for the longer stun durations and increase for Stormcaller lightning storm.

[Zeraili]

 

Thanks for help:) its decided than. I would go with rogue + ranger as DPS and druid monk tanks. If i could add one more question regarding ranger and rogue builds. Should i min/max them like max might,dex,per, and dump int and resolve?

 You want to be careful of dumping both Intellect and Resolve due to the huge penalty to your Will defense. You don't want your glass cannon super damaging ranged attacker being the first guy charmed every fight

 

If I dump one stat I'll pump the other at a 1:1 to keep the defense even.

 

For Rogues I like to dump Intellect to a four and max out Resolve. Rogues don't have much for duration based or area abilities so the low intellect does not hamper much. A four Intellect is just enough with +2 from food, +2 item and Dexterity 16+ to be able to perma-prone someone with We Toki while wearing Leather Armor and no speed enhancing. The high Resolve gives you good intimidating type dialogues and more deflection. 

 

Might on a Rogue can be left at ten with little affect on your damage. Dexterity, and Perception are better investments to really push the envelope for getting criticals.

 

Rangers can also do well with a dumped Intellect, but they suffer more for it. If you will be going with Stormcaller I would not dump intellect, it also hampers Stunning Shots. A fully ranged Ranger could do well with dumping Resolve and pumping Intellect for the longer stun durations and increase for Stormcaller lightning storm.

 

 

Thanks for advice, hmm im to green for it how it is for rogue to not upgrade might to much and still have huge dmg?  Is there not such big difference for rogue in terms of might between 10 and 18?

 

Could You post or link some kind of build for rogue and full ranged Ranger? Because im quite confused and im maybe missing something:)

Regards

[KDubya]

 

 

Thanks for help:) its decided than. I would go with rogue + ranger as DPS and druid monk tanks. If i could add one more question regarding ranger and rogue builds. Should i min/max them like max might,dex,per, and dump int and resolve?

 You want to be careful of dumping both Intellect and Resolve due to the huge penalty to your Will defense. You don't want your glass cannon super damaging ranged attacker being the first guy charmed every fight

 

If I dump one stat I'll pump the other at a 1:1 to keep the defense even.

 

For Rogues I like to dump Intellect to a four and max out Resolve. Rogues don't have much for duration based or area abilities so the low intellect does not hamper much. A four Intellect is just enough with +2 from food, +2 item and Dexterity 16+ to be able to perma-prone someone with We Toki while wearing Leather Armor and no speed enhancing. The high Resolve gives you good intimidating type dialogues and more deflection. 

 

Might on a Rogue can be left at ten with little affect on your damage. Dexterity, and Perception are better investments to really push the envelope for getting criticals.

 

Rangers can also do well with a dumped Intellect, but they suffer more for it. If you will be going with Stormcaller I would not dump intellect, it also hampers Stunning Shots. A fully ranged Ranger could do well with dumping Resolve and pumping Intellect for the longer stun durations and increase for Stormcaller lightning storm.

 

 

Thanks for advice, hmm im to green for it how it is for rogue to not upgrade might to much and still have huge dmg?  Is there not such big difference for rogue in terms of might between 10 and 18?

 

Could You post or link some kind of build for rogue and full ranged Ranger? Because im quite confused and im maybe missing something:)

Regards

 

 

 

A Rogue will have normal attack +100%, Sneak attack +50%, deathblows +100%, Superb weapon +45% = +295% damage with 10 Might and +319% damage with 18 Might.

 

Since you have so many damage adders the effect from Might is minimized. Monks have the opposite - they have very few damage % adders so Might is hugely helpful for them.

[Zeraili]

Maybe i tested it wrong but i can see big difference in criticals between rogue with 18might and one with 10 might but like normal autoatacks are very simmilar.  i tested it on two rogues

one with

M:18

C:10

D:20

P:19

I:3

R:8

other with

M:10

C:10

D:20

P:19

I:3

R:16

and first one critted for like 110 and second for 80 with like basic sabres. Is it expected result?

 

What would be good stats distribution and is race so important for rogue?

Sorry for so many questions Im curious and want to know more about it.

[Arnegar]

Fighters make great tanks in 3.0 because of Overbearing Guard. With this talent, the AI seems very scared of the fighter's disengagement attacks and will stick to him like glue. It's incredibly effective and has largely revived the original fighter tank. It does require level 7 and two talents that don't directly improve your survivability or anything, but it means you only have to have one tank in the party. Well worth it, it's the only tank I bother to even use in WM2 because it leaves you with so much freedom to build the rest of the party in whatever fashion you want.

 

Edér can do this build just fine, or you can make it a custom companion in which case I recommend pale elf for the elemental DRs. If you make your own, don't skimp too much on might/perception as this will gimp his very valuable disengagement attacks. Since intelligence is of limited importance to such a character, you could even make it a hybrid tank/DPS, although the mob-grabbing potential of this build is so effective that you kinda need to be very tanky.

 

From what I can tell, Overbearing Guard seems to simply prevent enemies from leaving the vicinity of the tank entirely. They'll never take that disengagement attack. Very few things are immune to prone, it's pretty much just oozes and like will-o-wisps.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Arnegar

[MaxQuest]

From what I can tell, Overbearing Guard seems to simply prevent enemies from leaving the vicinity of the tank entirely. They'll never take that disengagement attack. Very few things are immune to prone, it's pretty much just oozes and like will-o-wisps.

I have definitely seen a few enemies trying to disengage from Eder and go for my backline.

But due to Overbearing Guard and stunning Cladhalíath none has succeeded so far. (in combat log you see when there is a roll for OG)

[Boeroer]

Even if it works like that - on PoTD there are so many enemies that they can't all flock around one tank. What will you do if he's engaged and surrounded by four enemies?

[Arnegar]

Usually when there are so many enemies, they're just xaurips and stuff which you can simply mow down or ignore. There's rarely 5+ seriously dangerous enemies in one place. When there is, you can charm the one or two excess ones. I have had absolutely no problems on PotD using just that one tank, whereas trying to make do with a single paladin or chanter tank is hugely frustrating as enemies will be all over the place and largely ignore the tank. That forces you to have multiple tanks, or at least sturdy melees.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Arnegar

[Boeroer]

Lagufaeth? There's tons of them and they are all dangerous. Bounties: same. Crystal spiders: also. Ogres, too. Enemies in the Battery: a lot. There are a buch of enemies that come in great numbers and are dangerous enough for your squishies. One sticky tank alone can't glue them all in place. Don't get me wrong: it'S a good thing that this works - but I'm not convinced that one is enough.

 

By the way: Chanter tanks with a damaging aura also draw a lot of attention. I rarely see any mobster leave a chanter tank once they engaged. Maybe they classifiy them as caster and want to bring them down asap. Same with druid tanks. So maybe a mixture would be nice.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Boeroer

[DreamWayfarer]

By the way: Chanter tanks with a damaging aura also draw a lot of attention. I rarely see any mobster leave a chanter tank once they engaged. Maybe they classifiy them as caster and want to bring them down asap. Same with druid tanks. So maybe a mixture would be nice.

I don't know about the druid tanks part, since my Druid is probably the second char on my party with highest damage, and most foes ignore him until there are only two characters left. Maybe it is because he has almost twice as much deflection as the frontliners, when he switches to shield+hatchet.

[KDubya]

Maybe i tested it wrong but i can see big difference in criticals between rogue with 18might and one with 10 might but like normal autoatacks are very simmilar.  i tested it on two rogues

one with

M:18

C:10

D:20

P:19

I:3

R:8

other with

M:10

C:10

D:20

P:19

I:3

R:16

and first one critted for like 110 and second for 80 with like basic sabres. Is it expected result?

 

What would be good stats distribution and is race so important for rogue?

Sorry for so many questions Im curious and want to know more about it.

 

An 18 Might will do more damage but percentage wise it is not as big of a difference. In comes down to priorities, if you want 10 Constitution, 18 Dexterity, 18 Perception, 4 Intellect, and  18 Resolve you have none left for Might and will have 10. To balance your Will Save you need a 16 Resolve if you take Intellect down to 4. You could put two points somewhere other than Resolve.

 

In your example the top guy has -18 to his will save, +16 to his Fortitude and +36 to Reflex, the bottom guy has -2 Will, +0 Fortitude and +38 Reflex. having a big negative to one of the defenses is a bad idea many times. With the stats spread I used you have +4 Will, +0 Reflex and +32 Reflex.

 

For Race I'd choose what you enjoy. From a mechancs standpoint - Island Aumaua are nice due to the extra weapon slot, Boreal Dwarves have a nice Acc boost, Pale elves have nice elemental DR, Orlans get a nice hit>crit. I don't personally like Godlikes.