Cipher 3.0 - roll a Wizard instead

[Elric Galad]

I'm not sure you guys are giving the devs enough credit. A couple of things to bear in mind. Just about every beta, every class tweak since the year dot has produced an over reaction akin to this one. In spite of that, the balance is pretty good. Now personally, I wouldn't make massive adjustments, I'd prefer baby steps, but Sawyer may be right, rather make a huge change and see what the reaction is. I'd be very surprised if they keep these changes for long. It may make the final white March expansion but pretty sure Obs will have patches after that and they will keep tweaking the classes. Patience will be rewarded. I don't personally play Ciphers but they are most definitely not finished.

I admit I'm pretty confident about Obsidian ability to balance stuff.

 

Rangers and Paladin have been saved from uselessness, Chanter is soon going to be ok. I was worried about Fighter's defender nerf, but I think it's now ok too...

 

The point is... the game has been released for about 1 year... It did evolve in the right direction but there has always been a gimped class...

 

It's not so hard to make good balance in a party game because no one need balance to be as perfect as MMO. Characters only need to be the best for their own roles.

 

With chanter buff, I sincerely hoped they finally made it.

 

And now they come with a final nerf that does not seem to address any previous complaint. For sure, Ectopsychic Melter and Godmode Wave needed a fix, but why focus ?

 

Ciphers already had their own weakness against boss fight, so I really wonder why they designed such a radical change ?

 

It WILL eventually get fixed but will they suddenly decide to nerf monk wounds or rogue sneak attack for some reasons ?

Edited January 27, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Raven Darkholme]

I definitely agree with the point, that they coulda nerfed the stronger powers.

But the weaker powers did not really get affected by this (except the new ones I guess), and sadly this way Echo did not really get affected by this.

[delfador]

Count me unhappy with this too. 

 

For me, it's not about whether the class is powerful or not. They're just more boring to play now. The point of leveling up is to get cool new abilities that add variety. Ciphers now can use powers less often. When you pick a spell at level up, odds are you'll hardly use it. (contrast: almost every other class)

 

There were already plenty of weak level 3-6 powers rarely used. Those all got nerfed. I personally thought that level 1-2 powers were useful the whole game, before the change. So I'm not sure what problem they're trying to fix here.

 

It's interesting to see the struggles with both the Cipher and the Chanter. Thematically, two great classes, but struggling to have & use interesting spells, without their per-encounter nature seeming too powerful.

[Wolken3156]

The higher focus costs can actually be gotten around somewhat slightly by using the Greater Focus talent, which will raise your starting focus by 10. The only downside is, yeah, this means you need to lose a talent. Which is kinda of a pain since Ciphers are pretty pressed on talent selections unlike a lot of other classes. Even with Greater Focus, the Cipher probably won't be tossing around powers as much, but it does ease things a little.

 

My main complaint with the new Focus costs is that it only strengthens the value of the stronger powers and lessens the value of weaker powers. You would never consider burning 30 Focus for Fractured Volition now when you could get much more powerful benefits from Ectopsychic Echo or Secret Horrors. The 4th-level powers are definitely the ones that got hit the hardest, as other than Pain Block, none of them are worth that hefty 40 focus cost.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

My main complaint with the new Focus costs is that it only strengthens the value of the stronger powers and lessens the value of weaker powers. You would never consider burning 30 Focus for Fractured Volition now when you could get much more powerful benefits from Ectopsychic Echo or Secret Horrors. The 4th-level powers are definitely the ones that got hit the hardest, as other than Pain Block, none of them are worth that hefty 40 focus cost.

 

 

If this change means that the weaker Cipher powers get an upgrade pass to balance out their higher costs, it could end up as a net win for the class. There's always been about a four to six level gap (depending on your choices) where Ciphers didn't really get any powers that were that great. The main thing this change has done is put those differences into sharper focus.

 

I'm up to level 9 in my 3.0 Beta replay now, working my way down through the Endless Paths, and honestly my moment to moment gameplay hasn't changed much from the last time I ran a cipher through these levels. I'm using Whisper of Treason instead of Puppet Master, obviously. Biggest change is probably that I'm using Mental Binding less but that's not due to the 3.0 changes -- seems like it's been hit with its own independent duration nerf, which is aggravating (I think it could use a couple extra seconds in base duration from where it is now). 

 

There are a lot of cipher powers that could be good if they got tweaked, even at the new "price points". Body Attunement would be great if it had twice the duration -- as it is now it doesn't pay for itself. Silent Scream wouldn't be bad if it were an AoE stun or if it did more damage. Puppet Master also needs its duration doubled at least. I'm sure other folks can name other specific powers in this vein.

 

I've also been playing with Pain Link but I can't figure out how to spot the damage from it in the combat log so I can't verify it's doing anything.  It's more a button I press to empty my focus meter than anything else.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Boeroer]

Pain Link is (or was?) great - it's damage doesn't show up in the log though. You have to watch the red numbers tha pop out of the foe's head.

If you cast it on a tank that gets smacked hard by four foes every hit causes a retaliation that hits ALL foes around the tank - not just the guy who hit you. So four hits from four foes means each of them gets hit four times. The more foes attack the better. Best cast on a low RES but high CON monk with Shod-in-Faith boots.  

[Wolken3156]

Pain Link is also one of the few powers that can be cast outside of battle, though it may take a while to have enough initial Focus to be able to use it. Everything else I'll say about it will just parrot Boeroer's post, so uhh... look above.

 

Can't say I like the new Focus changes though. I'm finding my Cipher is struggling to even use 2nd-level powers. Granted I'm only at 4th level, having just cleared out Raedric's pad, but I'm not too thrilled at the moment. Charm still works like a... charm though.

[HawkSoft]

My monk led party (level 7) has just met up with Grieving Mother and swapped her for Sagani.

Grieving Mother came equipped with a fine crossbow, is this a change?

 

So far she has held her own in a few fights at Dyrford Crossing against mostly low DR stuff.

Updated cipher AI is impressive and seems to eek out her focus quite well.

She seems to be multi-tasking by reloading the crossbow whilst *casting* the slower spells, can anyone confirm or refute this?

 

Eyestrike is now Foe AOE   

 

 

EDIT:

The party is now encountering clumps of animats in the ruins: after her initial barrage of spells Grieving Mother is left with a handful of focus and a concerned expression.

Edited January 27, 2016 by HawkSoft

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Eyestrike has always had an AoE; it's one of the cipher's best powers overall. 

 

Pain Link is also one of the few powers that can be cast outside of battle, though it may take a while to have enough initial Focus to be able to use it. Everything else I'll say about it will just parrot Boeroer's post, so uhh... look above.

 

Can't say I like the new Focus changes though. I'm finding my Cipher is struggling to even use 2nd-level powers. Granted I'm only at 4th level, having just cleared out Raedric's pad, but I'm not too thrilled at the moment. Charm still works like a... charm though.

 

It seemed pretty clear at game release that Cipher powers, especially the higher-level ones, had never really gotten that final polishing pass. Things like some of them being useable out of combat just emphasize that. 

 

I suspect, at this point, that the big problem with these changes is that they're going to leave the Cipher too weak during the midgame. Levels 1 to 5 or so you're doing mostly fine, largely because the low level powers are mostly good. You might bork up your character if you take the wrong powers but there are enough good ones that you'll probably get a useable character.

 

Problem comes in between level 5 and 10. There aren't any generally useable "wow, that's cool" powers you get at those levels. There are a few that are situationally useful (Borrowed Instinct and Tactical Meld are good for boss encounters) but by the time you gather the focus for them they feel anticlimactic. By the time you're dropping Tactical Meld, the party's wizard has dropped Arduous Delay AND combusting wounds AND expose vulnerabilities (and per rest doesn't matter because it's a boss fight anyway). 

Edited January 27, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Gfted1]

Does PoE force high level spells into the high level spell slots? Meaning, instead of wasting high level spell slots with spells you will rarely be able to use, can you populate those slots with low level / faster / less focus spells?

[AndreaColombo]

Does PoE force high level spells into the high level spell slots? Meaning, instead of wasting high level spell slots with spells you will rarely be able to use, can you populate those slots with low level / faster / less focus spells?

 

When you level up, you can elect to pick lower-level powers even if a new power level has become available. However, you don't really need to pick that many lower-level powers; after a while, the good ones deplete.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Does PoE force high level spells into the high level spell slots? Meaning, instead of wasting high level spell slots with spells you will rarely be able to use, can you populate those slots with low level / faster / less focus spells?

 

Yes, and you should. There are at least four level one powers you want to take -- mind blast, soul shock, eyestrike, and whisper of treason. Personally I think the smart move is to only take two level 3 powers (Echo and Pain Link) and grab the fourth level 1 power then.

[Boeroer]

You can choose powers of lower levels instead of the actual one that you unlocked with your levelup. If there are any left.

[Boeroer]

Why does everybody recommend Whisper of Treason? I like Tenous Grasp much better. What's the advantage of Whisper of Treason?

[Wolken3156]

Why does everybody recommend Whisper of Treason? I like Tenous Grasp much better. What's the advantage of Whisper of Treason?

Charmed enemies attack other enemies plus its duration is a little longer than Whisper of Treason. Whisper of Treason's advantage is the fact it also inflicts Frightened on top of Confuse and has a shorter casting time.

 

Its more of preference thing really. I personally prefer Charm but I can see why others would prefer Tenuous Grasp.

[lameover]

Devs, fix my Cypher please! 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Why does everybody recommend Whisper of Treason? I like Tenous Grasp much better. What's the advantage of Whisper of Treason?

Charmed enemies attack other enemies plus its duration is a little longer than Whisper of Treason. Whisper of Treason's advantage is the fact it also inflicts Frightened on top of Confuse and has a shorter casting time.

 

Its more of preference thing really. I personally prefer Charm but I can see why others would prefer Tenuous Grasp.

 

 

Yeah, slightly longer duration and it usually takes two enemies out of the fight, the target and the target's new target.

 

i don't like Tenuous Grasp because it's shorter duration and Confuse is unreliable (I discount the fear effect because so many other powers grant fear, including a Chanter phrase). If I want a debuff I prefer Eyestrike because of the AoE.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Boeroer]

Every time I use Tenous Grasp from stealth the confused enemy gets beaten to death by his comrades or severely wounded. What I don't like about Whisper of Treason is indeed it's longer casting time.

Charmed enemies suffer a hefty debuff, but I still dislike how long it takes.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Every time I use Tenous Grasp from stealth the confused enemy gets beaten to death by his comrades or severely wounded. What I don't like about Whisper of Treason is indeed it's longer casting time.

Charmed enemies suffer a hefty debuff, but I still dislike how long it takes.

I can understand that. The tactical problem with ciphers is the quick getaway when something aggros you, and quick cast powers are ideal for that. I still prefer Mental Binding for that purpose though just because of the AoE root.

[HawkSoft]

I've kust cleared the temple/ruins near Dyrford and it seems every enemy cipher has been rearmed with pistols (I had a lot to sell to the smith), there was even a fine blunderbuss (nice loot, very expensive to buy).

Even on normal those ciphers seemed a lot more annoying/dangerous than they had been on previous play throughs.

 

 

I'm wondering if the *balance* changes were intended to nerf enemy ciphers who can now (with improved AI scripts) *perfectly* mesh casting powers with reloading slow missile weapons?

[Raven Darkholme]

I've kust cleared the temple/ruins near Dyrford and it seems every enemy cipher has been rearmed with pistols (I had a lot to sell to the smith), there was even a fine blunderbuss (nice loot, very expensive to buy).

Even on normal those ciphers seemed a lot more annoying/dangerous than they had been on previous play throughs.

 

 

I'm wondering if the *balance* changes were intended to nerf enemy ciphers who can now (with improved AI scripts) *perfectly* mesh casting powers with reloading slow missile weapons?

Those ciphers always used guns.

[HawkSoft]

 

I've kust cleared the temple/ruins near Dyrford and it seems every enemy cipher has been rearmed with pistols (I had a lot to sell to the smith), there was even a fine blunderbuss (nice loot, very expensive to buy).

Even on normal those ciphers seemed a lot more annoying/dangerous than they had been on previous play throughs.

 

 

I'm wondering if the *balance* changes were intended to nerf enemy ciphers who can now (with improved AI scripts) *perfectly* mesh casting powers with reloading slow missile weapons?

Those ciphers always used guns.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

 

I'm still wondering if the cypher nerf is connected with over effective AI ciphers than player concerns.

[Wolken3156]

Cipher AI seems unchanged for to me.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Wolken3156

[Raven Darkholme]

Not only that, but most ciphers are way less volatile than a player char would be.

Those in Dyrford don't even come close to the strongest ciphers, the strange spirits (forgot name) in Durgan's Battery (level 2 and further) who spam cipher abilities like crazy and even regen hp are pretty crazy.

I don't think they need focus for their attacks. ;P

[Infinitron]

There is another expansion comming after white march called ascension was a article on rpggamer for it

 

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