Attack speed 2.0

[Kardgar]

After reading this I decided to mess around a bit with this on my Ranger

 

26 dex

Two weapon Style

Swift Aim

Vuln Attack

Cautious Attack

Gauntlets of Swift Action

 

Durgan Refined Plate

Durgan Refined Rime Cutter

Durgan Refined Strike Hard

 

No recovery bar

[Kaylon]

After reading this I decided to mess around a bit with this on my Ranger

 

26 dex

Two weapon Style

Swift Aim

Vuln Attack

Cautious Attack

Gauntlets of Swift Action

 

Durgan Refined Plate

Durgan Refined Rime Cutter

Durgan Refined Strike Hard

 

No recovery bar

I did a few tests too and the speeds from each weapons works for both and stacks multiplicatively. However there's a slight difference in frames compared to what I was expecting. A ranger can indeed perma dual wield without recovery while wearing any kind of plate and also use Vulnerable Attack and Cautious Attack (1.2*1.15*1.2*1.15*1.2*1.15+0.2=2.82).

[AndreaColombo]

EDIT: never mind.

Edited January 17, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

Yeah, but since you get 182% you can easily place a plate in there - even without durgan reinforcement. Edit: ah, wait.. no - don't know. I'm confused...

 

Edit 2: ok, now I got it: 182% - 50% (plain old plate) - 20% (Vuln. Attack) and you are still at 112% - no recovery bar.

 

But same for the monk Swift Strikes or the barb with Frenzy (or any other class with Outlander's Frenzy that should become 1/encounter).

 

I also did a test with my speedy monk and found out that two speed enchanted weapons + durgan are much faster than two normal weapons + durgan - faster than 20% could explain. But I didn't have the idea that each weapon speed enchantment works for both weapons - which is kind of nuts by the way. That explains a lot.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Boeroer

[Kardgar]

Yeah, but since you get 182% you can easily place a plate in there - even without durgan reinforcement. Edit: ah, wait.. no - don't know. I'm confused...

 

Edit 2: ok, now I got it: 182% - 50% (plain old plate) - 20% (Vuln. Attack) and you are still at 112% - no recovery bar.

 

But same for the monk Swift Strikes or the barb with Frenzy (or any other class with Outlander's Frenzy that should become 1/encounter).

 

I also did a test with my speedy monk and found out that two speed enchanted weapons + durgan are much faster than two normal weapons + durgan - faster than 20% could explain. But I didn't have the idea that each weapon speed enchantment works for both weapons - which is kind of nuts by the way. That explains a lot.

 

 

Swift Aim lets you stay permanently like this, where as frenzy or some other short duration buff has to be managed. It's the set it and forget it no recovery setup. I don't know that anyone else can achieve this. It's a shame most of the speed enchanted weapons don't have any fun effects on them do make this setup more diverse.

[Boeroer]

I just tried and it's also possible to use non speed enchanted weapons - if you use lighter armor. With a durgan reinforced hide armor you can also have no recovery - as the math predicted.

 

I also just used a barb with frenzy and Spelltongue + Drawn in Spring. Not only does Spelltongue steal 15% attack speed (which lets you wear a bit thicker armor) - it also prolongs the duration of frenzy until the end of the encounter. This works especially well with a barb because of carnage-stealing.

 

A monk's AI can be set so that it automatically uses 1 wound to fire up swift strikes - so most of the time it's on.

 

The rest of the classes have to manage their speed buffs, that's true. But that's a tiny drawback compared to the DPS you get out of it when you recovery hits 0.

 

Edit: Forgot Sanguine Plate: that also kind of works automatically if you build your char around it.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

Edit: Forgot Sanguine Plate: that also kind of works automatically if you build your char around it.

 

Alas, if only there was a build that did it...!

[Boeroer]

I know, I know!

[Andvare]

 

You don't need armored grace, just durgan reinforced plate - which has 35% recovery penalty - that's enough to see if you have some recovery or not... Of course negative recovery doesn't make you attack faster but it allows you to use abilities or armors that otherwise would slow you down...

 

Trying to reconcile your math with my earlier test (from the link above):

 

Plate Armor (+50%)

Vulnerable Attack (+20%)

Armored Grace (-15% penalty*)

Durgan Steel armor (-15% penalty)

 

*this was before 2.03.

 

These should be additive, which means (50+20-15-15)=40% recovery penalty.

 

Then we have:

 

Durgan Steel weapon (+15% attack speed)

Speed weapon (+20% attack speed)

Deleterious Alacrity of Motion (+50% attack speed)

 

These should be multiplicative, which means 1.15x1.20x1.5=2.07 or 107% recovery reduction.

 

So, 140% - 107% = 33% recovery before DEX.

 

50 * 33% = 16.5 frames.

 

25 DEX (+45% action speed; applies to both attack and recovery)

 

Then we apply dexterity: (16.5 / 1.45) = 11.37

 

Et voilà: 11-frame recovery + 4-frame delay (which apparently can't be eliminated and doesn't factor in any calculation.)

 

 

This is a major breakthrough—Kaylon, you are a genius!

 

Now my LoP is not only the ultimate single-target melee DPS machine, but even has the flexibility to forgo Armored Grace and take a different ability (which is great, seeing as TWM pt. II is going to add new mid-level abilities for all classes.) I'm going to enjoy my next play through quite a lot, bwahahah!

 

 

Your LoP? 

[AndreaColombo]

Your LoP? 

 

My Lady of Pain Fighter build.

 

If you pick the Blade of the Endless Paths variant and swap the Gauntlets of Accuracy for the Gauntlets of Swift Action, you can forgo Armored Grace and still attack with no recovery (you'll still need to sip a potion of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion for it, but I sorta take it for granted as that's my standard opening move when I play the LoP and I mentioned it in the build thread.) When TWM pt. II comes out, the enchantment limit will be increased and you'll likely be able to stack a lash on the estoc to boot for extra fun (hint: The freezing lash looks very good on it.) I will update the build with these and other details when the expansion's released.

Edited January 17, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Question then -- 

 

Would it be possible to take a barbarian wearing Sanguine Plate to 0% recovery, then? Say if you were dual-wielding the "Strike Hard" warhammer (which has a speed bonus) and something else? If so, what would be the minimum investment to get there?  Am I correct in thinking that durgan on the sanguine plate, the Strike Hard's speed enchant, and Frenzy speed bonus would be enough by themselves to get you to 0 recovery, or am I doing that math wrong?  

Edited January 19, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Boeroer]

Let's see...

 

(for a barb you don't need Saguine Plate. With Sanguine Plate anybody can be a barb though)

 

The things you listed are enough if you also have a DEX bonus:

 

1.33% (Frenzy) * 1.2 (Strike Hard) * 1.15 (Durgan Refined Strike Hard) * 1.15 (Durgan Refined 2. War Hammer)  =  2,11.  Add Two Weapon Style: 2,31

 

Now you could put on a durgan reinforced plate (-0,35) and have Vulnerable Attack (-0,2): 1,76

 

If you have a DEX score that gives you +20%: 2,11 - no recovery.

 

Did I do it right?

 

 

 

Edit: forgot something that turned the whole statement upside down.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Let's see...

 

(for a barb you don't need Saguine Plate. With Sanguine Plate anybody can be a barb though)

 

The things you listed are enough if you also have a DEX bonus:

 

1.33% (Frenzy) * 1.2 (Strike Hard) * 1.15 (Durgan Refined Strike Hard) * 1.15 (Durgan Refined 2. War Hammer)  =  2,11.  Add Two Weapon Style: 2,31

 

Now you could put on a durgan reinforced plate (-0,35) and have Vulnerable Attack (-0,2): 1,76

 

If you have a DEX score that gives you +20%: 2,11 - no recovery.

 

Did I do it right?

 

 

 

Edit: forgot something that turned the whole statement upside down.

 

 

 

WOuldn't you just need a Dex score of 15, for +15% attack speed? 1.76 * 1.15 = 2.024 ? or am I doing this wrong?  Trying to figure out the *minimal* necessary investment here (I want to experiment with various interrupting and stunning carnage builds, so stat points are at a premium). 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Boeroer]

Yes, that would be sufficient. But you only will get all that *1.15 durgan stuff and strike hard quite late - so maybe you want to have more DEX so you will be a bit faster as long as your recovery didn't hit +100%.

 

One handed weapons with speed that come quite early are the Sword of Daenysis (Vincent Dwellier in the Salty Mast), March Steel Dagger (quest "Something Secret" with Derrin in Copperlane), Unforgiven flail (quest "Cinders of Faith" - where you can also get Tidefall), Spelltongue (kind of speed enchanted, chest in the map Durgan's Battery - not inside the Battery itself, left side of the map near a destroyed cart ). All the others come to late to build a char around them. But that's just my opinion. 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yes, that would be sufficient. But you only will get all that *1.15 durgan stuff and strike hard quite late - so maybe you want to have more DEX so you will be a bit faster as long as your recovery didn't hit +100%.

 

One handed weapons with speed that come quite early are the Sword of Daenysis (Vincent Dwellier in the Salty Mast), March Steel Dagger (quest "Something Secret" with Derrin in Copperlane), Unforgiven flail (quest "Cinders of Faith" - where you can also get Tidefall), Spelltongue (kind of speed enchanted, chest in the map Durgan's Battery - not inside the Battery itself, left side of the map near a destroyed cart ). All the others come to late to build a char around them. But that's just my opinion. 

 

Yeah, all the really good barbarian builds seem very item dependent . I was thinking this for a relatively late-game respec build on an adventurer. I *might* try pairing Shatterstar with a March Steel and see if that works as an intermediate version of the build (since Shatterstar apparently has an Interrupt bonus). Or maybe I'll just rush Twin Elms.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[AndreaColombo]

I'm sorry to rain on your proverbial parade, but DEX applies multiplicatively after everything else, which means you can't really count on it if your objective is to achieve 0 recovery. Still plenty useful for speeding up everything else and/or bring your recovery down to very low numbers, but since you said attribute points are premium for what you have in mind, I suppose we're not going down that route.

 

The math in your example would be as follows:

 

155% recovery (100% + 35% durgan-refined plate + 20% vulnerable attack)

 

-131% recovery penalty  (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

 

which would give you 24% recovery time before dexterity (in the case of dual-wielding, we're looking at about 6 frames of recovery + the 4-frame delay.)

 

If you also wear the Gauntlets of Swift Action:

 

-162% (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan x1.15 gauntlets + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

 

then you'd have 0 recovery before dexterity

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I'm sorry to rain on your proverbial parade, but DEX applies multiplicatively after everything else, which means you can't really count on it if your objective is to achieve 0 recovery. Still plenty useful for speeding up everything else and/or bring your recovery down to very low numbers, but since you said attribute points are premium for what you have in mind, I suppose we're not going down that route.

 

The math in your example would be as follows:

 

155% recovery (100% + 35% durgan-refined plate + 20% vulnerable attack)

 

-131% recovery penalty  (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

 

which would give you 24% recovery time before dexterity (in the case of dual-wielding, we're looking at about 6 frames of recovery + the 4-frame delay.)

 

If you also wear the Gauntlets of Swift Action:

 

-162% (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan x1.15 gauntlets + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

 

then you'd have 0 recovery before dexterity

 

 

Ok, I think I'm starting to understand this. 

 

Basically, when dual weilding one-handed normal-speed weapons, you need "200%" bonus speed in order to have 0 recovery, right? Because this is all percents, and speed percentages above 100 are what reduce recovery? 

 

So, if wearing normal plate, that bumps your recovery phase up to 150%. SO you then need +150% speed to eliminate that.

 

So, if you're also Frenzied (-1.33%) and using two-weapon fighting skill, that gives you a (roughly) fifty percent bonus to recovery, cancelling out the Plate penalty but not the base penalty. 

 

If you're frenzied and using at least one speed-enhanced weapon and using two-weapon fighting, but no durgan, that's going to take you down to roughly 70% of base recovery [ (1.33 * 1.2 + .2 == 1.796), then 2.5-1.796);

 

or if you're frenzied, using two-weapon fighting and a speed enhanced weapon, AND naked, i.e., an actual barbarian, you're down to 2 - 1.796 = .204 recovery?

 

If you durganize your armor and both weapons, then, that's the formula you posted, leaving you with 24% recovery time remaining.

 

And if you then wear the gauntlets of swift action, that zeroes you out.

 

So translating this all back into frames, as per the old formula (is this still correct? http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72272-combat-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery/?p=1603618 )? 

 

You'd get, presuming normal speed weapons:

 

At 70% of base recovery, a 25 frame recovery animation with each weapon

 

at 24%, an 8 or 9 frame animation.

 

If you then have a (for example) 17 Dex, you'll take that down further, by 21%, to around 6.8 frames?

 

Or, if you just stay naked, a  20.4% (naked, frenzied, speed weapon), a 6.12 frame animation.

 

Meanwhile, of course Dexterity is also reducing your actual attack animation (which no other speed boosts can do?)(does this game round frames up or down? Are there "break points"?)

 

 

Similarly, if you're using Fast weapons, with shorter animations, then

 

70% speed (frenzy, two-weapon, magical speed weapon) == 16 frame recovery,

 

24% speed (frenzy, two-weapon, magical speed weapon, full durgan) == 5.76 frame recovery? (at which point the Gloves would be redundant because you're at the four frame limit already?)

 

Sorry if I'm breaking this down into baby language, I'm just coming back to this game after a long hiatus and having to re-learn everything.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[AndreaColombo]

The post you linked is still accurate, give or take a few frames (IME, average/slow weapons have 30-frame attack, 50-frame recovery rather than 30/54; not sure about fast weapons and dual-wielding as I've never done much frame counting for those.)

 

When your character is naked and has 10 DEX, you'll attack with those timings which are your 100%. You need to stack -100% recovery to bring it down to 0 from there. If you add penalties to the mix, you'll need to stack bonuses up to 100% + whatever penalty you have. So yes, if you're wearing plate you'll need -150% to go down to 0, and so on and so forth.

 

Keep in mind that even with your recovery down to 0, there will always be a 4-frame delay in between attacks. This can't be eliminated and was likely introduced by the devs to prevent animations from getting messy when stacking bonuses like we're doing here.

 

 

Some math from page 1 of this thread.

Edited January 19, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Furism]

Just to make sure I understand this right, could somebody please confirm the terminology?

 

What is the difference between "melee speed" and "attack speed" ? Are they the same, except attack speed targets both melee and ranged attack speed?

 

What does Attack Speed include exactly? Is it only recovery frames or animation + recovery frames?

 

What is Fire Rate?

[Boeroer]

Thanks to this thread I could invent this: barb disabler

 

Thanks a lot guys! 

Edited January 20, 2016 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Thanks to this thread I could invent this: barb disabler

 

Tanks a lot guys! 

A ranger with Lenas Er is much more effective because Twinned Arrows and Stunning Shots which lower defenses even further. The problem is most targets will be dead even before they will reach their lowest defenses...

Edited January 20, 2016 by Kaylon

[Kaylon]

Just to make sure I understand this right, could somebody please confirm the terminology?

 

What is the difference between "melee speed" and "attack speed" ? Are they the same, except attack speed targets both melee and ranged attack speed?

 

What does Attack Speed include exactly? Is it only recovery frames or animation + recovery frames?

 

What is Fire Rate?

 

Attack speed affects the recovery of all attacks. Melee speed affects only the recovery of melee attacks (including spells benefiting from Vulnerable Attack like Jolting Touch). Ranged speed affects only the recovery of ranged attacks (including ranged spells benefiting from Penetrating Shot like Minoletta's Missiles). Fire rate affects only the recovery of ranged weapons (bows, firearms, implements). The only thing that affects the attack animation is the dex.

[Boeroer]

I'm pretty sure he's not more effective. Like... a 120% sure.

 

He's doing great things against one single target, no doubt about that. I also like my Twinned Arrows ranger. But he's not doing this in an AoE like the barb. Driving Flight doesn't work with on-hit-effects (except the x%-trigger things like Stormcaller and others of WM have). Plus: Lenas Er, Stunning Shots and Twinned Arrows come really late AND your pet has to be alive and kicking to trigger stunning shots. I prefer Stormcaller since you can get (and unlock it to exceptional) way earlier.

 

This guy debuffs whole mobs - not just one single target. Not only with the bebuffs but also with interrupts as a bonus. If you combine very high INT with an overseeing item and the enemies are not too big (like ogres) you easily can reach 5-6 foes at once. With Barbaric Blow and Heart of Fury (if you need a debuff NOW) even the Vile Loner's Lance is enough - and that thing you can have very early if you want. 

[Kaylon]

If you want to debuff multiple targets then yes, but against single targets the ranger is king 

[DreamWayfarer]

If you want to debuff multiple targets then yes, but against single targets the ranger is king

Well, using a barbarian for single targets is kinda missing the whole point of the class, isn't it?

Edited January 20, 2016 by DreamWayfarer