How to dramatically improve the stronghold with simple things

[archangel979]

 

Exactly my thoughts Bleak and archangel. I really, really wish for all this to be added in some way in the near future. The White March II will include some important other details though. It is a first step. But ALL what you both said in the 2 first posts are deeply needed.

 

A few more things:

 

- I want to be able to tell visitors to go away through actual dialogue. I really dislike having to use this impersonal mini game interface while i'm just beside them.

- Invaders of the stronghold should NOT be met INSIDE the walls when things are manually resolved, but OUTSIDE. Because it defeats the whole purpose of building WALLS. Plus, there should be some kind of portcullis (is it the right word?) and you should be able to loot the raiders rather than being forced to let them go by a loading screen.

- A limited quantity of siege machines on the walls (like in Raedric's hold) would be great too. May even be a further security upgrade. They should have NPC engineers. Of course, this, too, is more flavour oriented.

- I would like not to be warned that 5 ghosts will break into the main keep 7 DAYS later. There is no way i would be warned this much time beforehand. Actually the whole "invaders" system should be slightly reworked in order to make it more believable.

- I would like a "war room". What i mean is something like what you can see in the Crucible Keep and the Dozens' Hall: large table with map, marks, notes. A place where the chief of my garrison is, and where i can ask him about stronghold's defense related things.

- If Caed Nua is really a domain, then NPC recognizing you as its master is not enough. You can't say by your own you're a Lord in the Dyrwood. In BG2, it was by the power of Nalia and the laws she used that you were invested. The Duc should be able to make your position official (with some low nobility title maybe). Perhaps a reward after some key quest. This may even involve jealousy with some Crucible Knights.

 

The Stronghold is a cool thing. But there is SO MUCH more to do with it. Even without 1 whole year of development. Right now, it's not alive. It's impersonal. It's all about mini game interface. And it doesn't mix at all with neither the story, nor the world.

 

Impersonal is the word for the stronghold indeed.

I agree with all of these in general, especially the last. It would be even better to tie the stronghold to the main story more like in NWN2.

 

Considering this topic is about simple solutions to make the Stronghold better, trying it with main story is opposite of that.

In ideal world/game, yea it should be.

[Bleak]

 

 

Exactly my thoughts Bleak and archangel. I really, really wish for all this to be added in some way in the near future. The White March II will include some important other details though. It is a first step. But ALL what you both said in the 2 first posts are deeply needed.

 

A few more things:

 

- I want to be able to tell visitors to go away through actual dialogue. I really dislike having to use this impersonal mini game interface while i'm just beside them.

- Invaders of the stronghold should NOT be met INSIDE the walls when things are manually resolved, but OUTSIDE. Because it defeats the whole purpose of building WALLS. Plus, there should be some kind of portcullis (is it the right word?) and you should be able to loot the raiders rather than being forced to let them go by a loading screen.

- A limited quantity of siege machines on the walls (like in Raedric's hold) would be great too. May even be a further security upgrade. They should have NPC engineers. Of course, this, too, is more flavour oriented.

- I would like not to be warned that 5 ghosts will break into the main keep 7 DAYS later. There is no way i would be warned this much time beforehand. Actually the whole "invaders" system should be slightly reworked in order to make it more believable.

- I would like a "war room". What i mean is something like what you can see in the Crucible Keep and the Dozens' Hall: large table with map, marks, notes. A place where the chief of my garrison is, and where i can ask him about stronghold's defense related things.

- If Caed Nua is really a domain, then NPC recognizing you as its master is not enough. You can't say by your own you're a Lord in the Dyrwood. In BG2, it was by the power of Nalia and the laws she used that you were invested. The Duc should be able to make your position official (with some low nobility title maybe). Perhaps a reward after some key quest. This may even involve jealousy with some Crucible Knights.

 

The Stronghold is a cool thing. But there is SO MUCH more to do with it. Even without 1 whole year of development. Right now, it's not alive. It's impersonal. It's all about mini game interface. And it doesn't mix at all with neither the story, nor the world.

 

Impersonal is the word for the stronghold indeed.

I agree with all of these in general, especially the last. It would be even better to tie the stronghold to the main story more like in NWN2.

 

Considering this topic is about simple solutions to make the Stronghold better, trying it with main story is opposite of that.

In ideal world/game, yea it should be.

 

 

That's why I don't mention it in the OP. But that depends on how you tie it too. Adding a small quest with a few waves of attacks as an event shouldn't be that difficult. Still my main gripe with it is the one I mention in the OP.

[why]

I like the stronghold.  Maybe a little more interactivity?  Maybe something more substantial than 'grand quest' with 2 'moderately powerful items' or whatever it is?  I'd like a little more fanfare.

 

Still, color me somewhere inbetween the 'let's make this an rts castle building game' some people suggest and the 'burn it with fire' that others suggest.

 

I'd also point out that people comparing Pillars of Eternity to every single game in the IE collection is unreasonable.  This is the first game in hopefully a series of games.  The combat mechanics are new.  The setting is new.  There's room for improvement and Obsidian has already shown a great deal of willingness to look for improvements and to listen to suggestions for improvements.

 

Towards that end, I would suggest making the stronghold more reactive to the world.  Have the condition and ownership of your stronghold be a minor topic in conversations generally and maybe a source of specific discussion on some occasions.  Give quests names but still allow us to dispatch our at home NPCs to accomplish those quests.  I would probably scrap the bounty-hunter but instead have a related quest line that originates in the stronghold that relates to the outside world in the same way the dungeon turns inwardly.

 

What I wouldn't do is make a sweeping and grand mini-game out of the stronghold.  I wouldn't scrap it either.  Maybe I'm the only person who enjoys the stronghold, but I'd also keep in mind that sometimes the people with the smallest grief cause the biggest outcry.  It's possible that Archangel would sing the praises of the game only if and if only the stronghold had a complex trade and kingdom building mini-game.

 

I'm all for anyone asking for anything, but I don't think some of the more grandiose plans in this thread would make the stronghold better.  I think they'd make it a chore and detract from the main game.

[Abel]

Most of the things Bleaks, archangel and i spoke about have nothing to do with some kind of RTS like, uber complex stronghold. Most are about flavor: adding some NPC for flavor, some basic lines of dialogue to them, moving some stuff from one place to another, and so on. I think Bleak and archangel explained quite well that they primarily wanted "easy" things to be done. Not uber complex ones. The examples you give are in the same trend. Maybe they're even more complex actually. Because writing and developing a quest line related to the bounty hunter may need much more work than adding 10 cloned NPC with a mere "greetings my lord" line when you approach them.

 

By the way,

 

 

Maybe something more substantial than 'grand quest' with 2 'moderately powerful items' or whatever it is?

 

This is one of the important details patch 3.00 will improve . Great thing indeed.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Abel

[why]

Most of the things Bleaks, archangel and i spoke about have nothing to do with some kind of RTS like, uber complex stronghold. Most are about flavor: adding some NPC for flavor, some basic lines of dialogue to them, moving some stuff from one place to another, and so on. I think Bleak and archangel explained quite well that they primarily wanted "easy" things to be done. Not uber complex ones. The examples you give are in the same trend. Maybe they're even more complex actually. Because writing and developing a quest line related to the bounty hunter may need much more work than adding 10 cloned NPC with a mere "greetings my lord" line when you approach them./quote]

 

 

 

 

 

-Also I really miss "throne sessions" and taxes regulation now that I remember D'Arnise keep in BG or NWN keep. Sessions with nobles/peasants coming to their lord for simple, everyday things and you decide over their fate as well as decide about the amount of taxes (forgiving/normal/cruel), shaping your character's personality and the way people treat you. Also the Lavok's Sphere's apprentice system in BG was extremely enjoyable - made you actually feel like an archmage.

 

Doesn't seem simple to me. It seems more complex. However, I wronged Archangel because it was someone other guy who mentioned the rts idea, and I think. I think he might have been joking about it now that I read it again, although Archangel responded nicely. That's probably why I thought of Archangel when I wrote about the rts idea.

 

 

 

What would be really awesome is if you could raise armies and invade your enemies. But that would kind of be like a RTS game within a game.

 

Would be good but can't see it happening.

Google Civcraft, new RPG/RTS currently in Early Access.

Or use this link: http://www.civcraftgame.com/

 

I actually think most of Archangel's ideas are pretty good as long as the emissary doesn't bring overly complex quest lines since the stronghold in and of itself would already provide them. If the emissary did, I would say have those plot lines supplant the bounty hunter quests. Those are cool, only a little bit out of place in my opinion.

 

Also, using trade as a reference is a nice idea as long as it begins and ends there. I see the idea of the stronghold as more or solid. It just needs sprucing up. If that's where we all are, then I guess I'm with you guys, not against you. I don't want the stronghold scrapped, that's for sure. I like having some place to call my own.

 

Now, in Pillars 2, if they want to make the stronghold more substantial with some of the OP's ideas, I'm good on that too. That will entirely depend on how they present it. Baldur's Gate 2 had extremely complex strongholds compared to Pillars, but if I remember it right, each were down class exclusive lines, which means a lot of work that most players won't see.

 

All this was a long time ago and I haven't played in forever, so maybe I'm just not remembering everything right?

Edited December 15, 2015 by why

[Bleak]

@why 

 

As far as I know everything I mentioned is simple and easy to implement and as Abel said, they are mostly for the sake of flavor and RP which, after all, is everything to this game.

 

"Throne sessions" in BG involved a couple of npcs asking you to just decide about something, giving the player to shape his personality. For example judging a small time criminal or giving your blessings to a marriage in your lands etc. One could say that bulk of the work would be writing the npcs' stories.

And at the very least, part of the micro-management should be the possibility to set taxes. The settings could be generous, normal and cruel helping you to further affect your personality and things people say to you and at most they could synergize with events. For example cruel taxes could affect the rate of visitors, another kind of event or a throne session.

As for the apprentices, in BG, they were just 3 npcs - yes each one had a lot of dialog - but besides that their only function would be to stand around a lab and depending on your choices, they would just have a % to die or craft random magical items for you.

 

Still, above all these, I would prioritize something much easier - just placing npcs all over the place and giving them a simple greeting line, maybe a couple more, to reflect reputation/personality.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Bleak

[Abel]

Yep. And "throne sessions" and amount of taxes should contribute to forge you a reputation as a ruler. Cruel one, benevolent one, weak one... That should be used at times in the game. Mostly in Defiance Bay since this is where the ducal palace (and the politics) is. This would just modify a few dialogues of few key NPCs, and add a few random lines to commoners in the street. Something about reactivity of the game to your stronghold.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Abel

[evilcat]

Most important things for me:

1. Recognition, fact that we are Lord/Lady of Cuad Nua and we restored glory of stronghold should have more impact. At least some of NPC should hear about us.

2. Stronghold quests - cook had cookbook stolen by quirps from dungeons, maisters need materials to rebuild halls (PC need to go for them) and so on, or fellow noble come with visit and we can either kick him out or do something nice for him. There are rumours that something like that is planned. 

3. Common ingreediens and supplies. After upgrade Stronghold trader should offer all common goods, supplies, potions, ingredience, crafting materials. Everything which is common and which is easy to buy in big cities. Traders restock every week. Traveling from town to town in search of ingreediens is boring.

 

Things like peasants or servants with who PC can talk are also ok. But they do not add as much as big 3.

Edited December 19, 2015 by evilcat

[Bleak]

I just hope they will keep these things in mind for PoE 2, because it worries me how they didn't pay much attention to them in 1. Because for the simplest of additions in this thread, some attention for rp was all that was needed, rather than additional resources.

[HawkSoft]

Lots of ideas so far, many of which I agree with

 

The best thing about the PoE stronghold is its location, Caed Nua is well located at a minor communications hub and it's easy (quick in game time) to stop off there when traveling from (EG) Defiance Bay to the White March.

By contrast many of the BG2 strongholds were out in the sticks with little reason to visit them. Mages and bards had a major advantage here as theirs were actually in the main city.

 

I'm OK with a single stronghold for all classes but maybe there could be class specific pot plans or other details?

 

Resting characters should be able to contribute to the defence as well as your hirelings.

[Yosharian]

The stronghold system, is a brilliant one in general. Surely it can be improved but it's the best "stronghold system" I've ever played in a crpg. 

Yet, it feels soulless and impersonal at the same time, at least for me.

 

With a few decorative npcs and a few lines of dialog, according to what you build, you could easily change that. 

 

-Guards standing at the gate, greeting their lord when you enter the stronghold (maybe differentiate greeting by reputation).

-Soldiers training at the training grounds with possibility to upgrade their armor and weapons (leather, chain, plate/staves, swords, halberts/sw&sh).

-Philosophers arguing at the forum. Peasants/Nobles watching them.

-Nobles in the throne room, decoration on the tables of the throne room and maybe a carpet.

-Gardeners attending the gardens.

-Priests and acolytes coming to study or pray at the temple from other lands.

-Rangers, druids visiting the warden's lodge.

-Peasants at the Brighthollow. Extra nobles when you build the pool for example, librarians and scholars when you build the library.

-Construction workers, especially when something is being contstructed. I would also rather speak to an actual construction master npc rather than do it from an Impersonal interface. 

 

This simple thing, just placing npcs with a name, even if they don't have dialog (but it would be nice if they made a comment), would go a HUGE way towards making the stronghold more realistic, RP friendly and enjoyable, at least for me. For example, I don't care if my soldiers can't kill a xaurip, their presence only would suffice.

 

-A secondary thing that I feel is not quite right with the stronghold is that it feels like a field with a random assortment of buildings. I would prefer a road leading to some stairs to a decent castle entrance with the secondary buildings branching from it (like a condensed realistic stronghold for example the one in NWN) and a pit on the other side of the gate as well.

 

-Also I really miss "throne sessions" and taxes regulation now that I remember D'Arnise keep in BG or NWN keep. Sessions with nobles/peasants coming to their lord for simple, everyday things and you decide over their fate as well as decide about the amount of taxes (forgiving/normal/cruel), shaping your character's personality and the way people treat you. Also the Lavok's Sphere's apprentice system in BG was extremely enjoyable - made you actually feel like an archmage.

This is an incredibly wordy way way of saying 'the stronghold needs some ****ing effort put into it'.  All these ideas are excellent but they require time and resources (i.e. money) to achieve.

 

Sorry, I love the game but it's blatantly obvious that the stronghold has had nearly 0 effort put into it.  Virtually no NPCs, no quests, this ****ing 'feature' is an utter joke.  The one useful part it should have played from at the very least a gameplay perspective should've been to give massive rest buffs once fully upgraded, and even now it still doesn't really manage that.  Dyrford Village gives absolutely insane buffs on a 2-rest limit by comparison.

 

What irritates me the most is that they created this beautiful area and went to the trouble of creating all these upgrades and then basically said '**** it, that'll do'.  'Soulless' you said, that pretty much sums it up.  The wasted potential is what hurts the most.

 

Meh I've had a few tonight probably being a bit more cynical than is completely necessary

Edited December 31, 2015 by Yosharian

[anameforobsidian]

The stronghold had a ton of effort put into the mechanical and graphical implementation.  It has its own subsystems and changes graphically far, far more than any level in the game.  The writing to fill up those subsystems is lacking.

Edited January 1, 2016 by anameforobsidian

[Bleak]

A little decorating and writing would make it x10 times better than what it is right now. I remember being more attached with D'arnise hold for instance and it was a much more simple stronghold to maintain with far less features. I love complexity, but instead of impersonal systems and magically built structures in a couple of days by pressing buttons on an interface etc, they should have set roleplaying as a priority. I hope they keep this in mind for 2.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Bleak

[evilcat]

Some thoughs about Stronghold, maybe no longer relevant to PoE due to project ending, but something to read before PoE2.

 

Good things about stronhold:

- Bounties - are optional, offer some challenge, allow to revisit old locations, offer rare loot woot.

- Campfire - simple place when player can put some of items in the stash, talk with companions, or simply rest very fast. Resting in inns often requires extra loading screen, but in stronghold it is simplier. However PoE overdo it, blowing stronghold to big size. Aproach from Dragon Age Origins, or Shadowrun is enouht for my needs.

- Vendor hub - running around the Dyrwood in search that one vendor who sells some plant/brain/gem is no exiting. So having all basic vendors in one place is big ease of use improvment.

 

 

I am ok with that:

- Endless Dungeon - it is hard to complain about endless paths since it is realisation of the promise. It is good that is is optional. Allows to just kill things and test our party in combat after many non lethal quests. However same result could be achieved with smaller dungeon (8-10 levels).

- Rest bonus - ok inns offer one, so stronghold should to. However it is mostly gold sink, so there is not much extra value in it. Not entertaining.

 

The bad, things annoying for no reason:

- Raids, monster raids are horrible idea, since it is obligatory, offers no loot and no story. Just something which stops me during some cool exploration elsewhere.

- Loading screen, various bildings in Stronghold have loading screens, so making easy tasks could take longer time.

 

Missing:

- Story, there is lack of some story arc around stronghold. Similar to BG2. PoE type players probably like stories so there should be one connected with Stronghold.

- Recognition, it is rare that upgrading our stronhold to super center of trade and justice have any impact on the world. (single mercenaries is not enought) It would be good to use our lordship like seal the deal for ourselves, or marry handsome prince, or took over gilden dale after Roderick expires...

 

Maybe in PoE2 it will be enought to have something smaller: safehouse, tradeship, wachtower, mancave, theatre, temple...

Edited January 12, 2016 by evilcat

[scottii]

honestly surprised this was not a sandbox feature, like what most other games have right now.

[Fenixp]

How does "Fallout 4" translate into "Most other games"? Can't think of any other RPG featuring sandbox building. That is unless by "Most other games" you mean all those online survival grindfests, in which case... Well there's your answer, Pillars is not one of them.

 

Edit: Spellforce! But that's cheating.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Fenixp

[HawkSoft]

honestly surprised this was not a sandbox feature, like what most other games have right now.

Did you mean sandbox or litter tray ?

 

 

I think that Divinity: Original Sin is more of a sandbox game than PoE given its vast crafting system and elemental rock-paper-scissors combat system but you have virtually zero control over the rambling stronghold in that game.

[Karkarov]

All those sandbox building games are also giant piles of camel dung and suck.  But hey whatevs.  Even in Stupidly triple A mega funded Fallout 4 it was still mostly a pointless and derivative mini feature that you could totally ignore and suffer absolutely no penalty for doing so.

[Lord_Mord]

I didn't play those games. Can somebody explain in a few words, how a sandbox stronghold works?

[Bleak]

From my experience the closest thing to a "sandbox stronghold" (not game), if there is such a thing, is actually the stronghold in PoE. 

 

Being "sandbox" is a positive characteristic as long as it is not a "litter tray" as HawkSoft mentioned earlier, which, in my book, is essentially an assortment of meaningless micromanaging with recurring bland events that have no impact, meaning or consequences.

 

This is mostly what PoE's stronghold is imo, that's why I made this thread. If the stronghold had the most basic of elements, on which the game is also built on, roleplaying and good writing, it would be ten times more enjoyable for me. If your decisions and skills actually affected its own events or the main story's events, even better.  

[Valorian]

This would dramatically improve both the stronghold and the game:

 

- Increase renovation prices tenfold

- When all is done, as prestige is oozing through the roof, a special merchant who sells the best food and potions in the game appears

[Bleak]

Hope you guys keep these in mind now that PoE 2 has been announced.

[Yosharian]

Again, couldn't agree more. Strongholds are currently ghost towns. So disappointing to finish an upgrade and see zero NPCs populate it.