European Refugee Crisis : Part 2

[Oerwinde]

I like how the French president praised Austrians for rejecting the far right. He got 49.7% of the vote. A 0.6% loss is hardly a rejection.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

The EU needs to be protected from democracy. That means these anti-immigrant parties populary elected and DiEM25 need to be shut down and all representatives should be handpicked by EU officials.

 

I'm still disappointed by your ideological change but I am hoping hard evidence will change your mind

 

I can make that long post if you want  about the EU ..but only if you want

Go ahead, given your track record it'll make more people skeptical of the EU and neoliberalism.

[Meshugger]

 

While i haven't followed the Austrian presidential elections, i did however find this interesting: https://archive.is/C6oqM

 

 

“Norbert Hofer failed in his bid for Austria’s presidency, but he would have been cut out of EU decision-making,” reported the Times of London.

 

“The EU will isolate and use sanctions against any far-right or populist governments that are swept to power or presidential office on the wave of popular anger against migration.”

 

The Times quoted Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, saying flatly: “There is no debate or dialogue with the far-right.”

 

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship.

 

Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq

No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail?

 

But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing

 

 

Why do you even ask permission? Your opinion does exist on the approval others, doesn't it? Just post or don't bother at all.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Meshugger

[BruceVC]

 

 

While i haven't followed the Austrian presidential elections, i did however find this interesting: https://archive.is/C6oqM

 

 

“Norbert Hofer failed in his bid for Austria’s presidency, but he would have been cut out of EU decision-making,” reported the Times of London.

 

“The EU will isolate and use sanctions against any far-right or populist governments that are swept to power or presidential office on the wave of popular anger against migration.”

 

The Times quoted Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, saying flatly: “There is no debate or dialogue with the far-right.”

 

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship.

 

Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq

No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail?

 

But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing

 

 

Why do you even ask permission? Your opinion does exist on the approval others, doesn't it?

 

Yes I am nearly done....and yes I agree there is no point asking for permission but if no one is interested in me writing a long post I wont bother because what would be the point and its a waste of time

 

But I do want to make this point, so I was looking for someone who would read  it because its a few paragraphs

 

And then people read  it later and comment 

Edited May 26, 2016 by BruceVC

[majestic]

While i haven't followed the Austrian presidential elections, i did however find this interesting: https://archive.is/C6oqM

 

 

“Norbert Hofer failed in his bid for Austria’s presidency, but he would have been cut out of EU decision-making,” reported the Times of London.

 

“The EU will isolate and use sanctions against any far-right or populist governments that are swept to power or presidential office on the wave of popular anger against migration.”

 

The Times quoted Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, saying flatly: “There is no debate or dialogue with the far-right.”

 

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship.

 

Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq

 

Here's the funny thing: Members of the European Commission are nominated by the national governments, members of the European Parliament are nominated by the parties voted for during the EU parliamentary elections and the European Council is made up by each member nation's head of government or state, whichever is appropriate.

 

Therefore in all nations where the head of state has a largely ceremonial role the prime minister or chancellor is the representative of the government in the  European Council. If Hofer had been elected he would have had as much to say in the EU decision making process as Van der Bellen (his opponent) or the King of Spain has now: None, what-so-ever.

 

As for the other dribble written by Pamela Geller, erm, yeah. I'll retreat to my safe space because I feel offended. Reading that article made me dumberer. I can clearly feels it. Me happy.

[majestic]

 

 

 

While i haven't followed the Austrian presidential elections, i did however find this interesting: https://archive.is/C6oqM

 

 

“Norbert Hofer failed in his bid for Austria’s presidency, but he would have been cut out of EU decision-making,” reported the Times of London.

 

“The EU will isolate and use sanctions against any far-right or populist governments that are swept to power or presidential office on the wave of popular anger against migration.”

 

The Times quoted Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, saying flatly: “There is no debate or dialogue with the far-right.”

 

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship.

 

Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq

No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail?

 

But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing

 

 

Why do you even ask permission? Your opinion does exist on the approval others, doesn't it?

 

Yes I am nearly done....and yes I agree there is no point asking for permission but if no one is interested in me writing a long post I wont bother because what would be the point and its a waste of time

 

But I do want to make this point, so I was looking for someone who would read  it because its a few paragraphs

 

And then people read  it later and comment 

 

 

I don't think these nations need to be protected from leaving the EU. If they decide to do that, then so be it. They're not children and they don't need an overbearing EU sanction government father to protect them from making what he (or you) thinks are dangerous mistakes. Comments like the one from Juncker are also completely and utterly stupid (voting for right-wing populists now becomes the clearest act of defiance available to the general populace), but hey, what can anyone expect from the EPP these days. *sigh*

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

While i haven't followed the Austrian presidential elections, i did however find this interesting: https://archive.is/C6oqM

 

 

“Norbert Hofer failed in his bid for Austria’s presidency, but he would have been cut out of EU decision-making,” reported the Times of London.

 

“The EU will isolate and use sanctions against any far-right or populist governments that are swept to power or presidential office on the wave of popular anger against migration.”

 

The Times quoted Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, saying flatly: “There is no debate or dialogue with the far-right.”

 

So declare your opponents as enemies (=far-right, what's a far-right anyway?) of the EU, threaten with sanctions and refuse to debate them. What a time to be alive in this democraship.

 

Original link: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq

No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail?

 

But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing

 

 

Why do you even ask permission? Your opinion does exist on the approval others, doesn't it?

 

Yes I am nearly done....and yes I agree there is no point asking for permission but if no one is interested in me writing a long post I wont bother because what would be the point and its a waste of time

 

But I do want to make this point, so I was looking for someone who would read  it because its a few paragraphs

 

And then people read  it later and comment 

 

 

I don't think these nations need to be protected from leaving the EU. If they decide to do that, then so be it. They're not children and they don't need an overbearing EU sanction government father to protect them from making what he (or you) thinks are dangerous mistakes. Comments like the one from Juncker are also completely and utterly stupid (voting for right-wing populists now becomes the clearest act of defiance available to the general populace), but hey, what can anyone expect from the EPP these days. *sigh*

 

I can understand that view, its reasonable but it ignores the real and extreme economic  risk countries face who leave the EU but read my post about this as  its aimed at all you guys who live in the EU

 

I'm not trying to scare you or suggest I know more than you but these considerations are from my cousins who are much clever than me and  work in emerging markets at HSBC in the UK....they very worried about the future of all countries staying in the EU

 

They have done risk assessments of what if a country leaves the EU and I added my own concerns. I dont think the EU is trying to be condescending but there is real risk that I doubt these right wing parties think of

 

But ultimately this is based on a risk assessment so  its just suppose to be a fairly accurate warning...but my cousins are normally  accurate. They did one for South Africa and were about 60-70 % right 

[BruceVC]

Meshugger\KP I am going to share something with you that I wasn't going to  because I thought you may see it as something negative..and I'm not sure if the other members who live in the EU are aware of this 

 

 

Okay the good news and really relevant point is you should see the EU  as something grand and successful, Sure you have problems but it should be seen as an  amazing experiment that works ....yet it requires certain structures and rules. You should be very happy and content in the EU and despite some complaints like Brussels the idea of leaving the EU is not a real option

 

 

But lets say you are determined you want to leave !!!! And lets use Finland and say you represent the ruling right  party 

 

There isn't any leaving the EU, not really. This is the truth that no one wants to understand, the EU works but it could only work through components like a single currency, central financial controls and then of course the integration into the free market within the EU 

 

Its genius and many other unions tried to copy this model and failed ..like the African Union

 

But it  is also inherently a trap ...a real economic conundrum that any country wanting to leave will realize...so lets explain the ending in points and please dispute them or ask other questions 

 

• Somehow a right wing party would win the referendum in the country (this alone a herculean task ) and leave the EU
  
• The EU troika would  by now have given up  on this country and would be preparing Finland's  exit but they would be annoyed and would have to make a surreptitious point...a realistic but conceivable point to make sure no other countries follow Finland
  
• All Finish visas within the EU would be expired in 3 months or so and all Finnish citizens would be forced to return to Finland to reapply. But now most positions would be fulled by other EU candidates
  
• Almost every single hedge fund or investor would pull out of Finland, I cannot stress this enough as there would be almost no chance  an investor  in Finland would stay before Finland leaves the EU due to all the uncertainty around the economy
  
• Finland would return to using the Finnish markka, initially the value of the Finnish markka would be practicly   worthless. So we are also talking about all the numerous financial issues with using a weak currency
  
• There would be huge pressure on every financial instituon in Finland as the various banks work out how they will now incorporate the new currency
  
• The credit rating agencies  would downgrade Finland to Junk status 
  

 

 

All these points effectively means Finland would be under unprecedented economic pressure, I doubt anyone in Finland would remember what  its like to go from first to third world. Its not the fault of people in the EU but all these right wing groups screaming for " sovereignty ", " down with the EU " and "self-rule " are looking at this whole thing from a nationalistic perspective. They cannot possibly predict or understand the real economic pressure this will put on the counttry

 

Finally imagine the reality ....Finland leaves the EU !!! And now what? No longer does Brussels dictate policy and no longer are immigrant quotas enforced on Finland but at what cost? A country outside the EU that use to  be part of the EU seems like a lonely and ultimately pointless place to be at?

 

What real economic benefit does this bring to the citizens and that should be the only question these right wing groups should be asking themselves " does leaving the EU bring real and sustainable benefit to its citizens"  

 

For me the answer is an unequivocal NO 

[Oerwinde]

Finally imagine the reality ....Finland leaves the EU !!! And now what? No longer does Brussels dictate policy and no longer are immigrant quotas enforced on Finland but at what cost? A country outside the EU that use to  be part of the EU seems like a lonely and ultimately pointless place to be at?

 

What real economic benefit does this bring to the citizens and that should be the only question these right wing groups should be asking themselves " does leaving the EU bring real and sustainable benefit to its citizens"  

 

Leaving means they don't have to abide by EU regulations on developing their resources, which could mean more growth in some industries. Leaving the Euro and adopting their own currency means if its value goes down, exports become cheaper and export industries see growth, if the currency rises, imports become cheaper, etc. Leaving the EU isn't going to be a huge disaster for anyone but the EU. Especially if they can control their borders and don't have to bring in millions of illiterate low IQ 3rd world immigrants that do nothing but cause the welfare state to collapse and destroy social cohesion.

[obyknven]

Finally imagine the reality .... i leaves the home !!! And now what? No longer does daddy dictate to me and no longer are girlfriends quotas enforced to me but at what cost? A boy outside the Parent's house that use to  be part of the home seems like a lonely and ultimately pointless person to be at?

 

What real economic benefit does this bring to the teens and that should be the only question these right wing groups should be asking themselves " does leaving the Parent's home bring real and sustainable benefit to teens".

 

For me the answer is an unequivocal NO.

[HoonDing]

Newsflash: the most prosperous Yuroppan countries are outside the EU.

[BruceVC]

Newsflash: the most prosperous Yuroppan countries are outside the EU.

You very seldom follow-up on certain interesting comments you make so I hope you do on this one

What is your definition of "Yuroppan countries are outside the EU"

[Elerond]

I am bit of disagreement with previous arguments about Finland's membership in EU

 

Citizens of Finland don't need visas in any of the EU countries and because of two way deals that Finland has with those countries they would not need them even if Finland leaves EU. Only thing that would change in this front would be that citizens of Finland would need to carry passport instead of just identification card, but most people carry passports anyway (And this is only in theory as there isn't border checks in EU so people can travel fairly free from country to country even without identification).

 

EU regulations don't force Finland to do anything it don't want to do. Those regulations are always approved by our government and they don't come in force before our Parliament has made them as law. People can sue Finland to EU courts if they feel that our laws are against EU directives, but even EU court decisions don't force our government do anything they are just reprimands that Finland has not done what was commonly agreed on. You can see from this refugee crisis how powerless EU is against member countries that willfully decide not to follow what was decided.

 

Currently Finland suffers from phenomenon where hedge funds use EU's treaties to move money out form Finland to countries with lower taxation like for example Luxembourg. So currently EU membership helps hedge funds to withdraw money from Finland's economy in way that they would not be able to do if Finland wasn't member state.

 

Finland is relatively rich country that actually can support its own currency, even though separating from euro would cost Finland billions of euros because of bureaucratic issues, productions cost of new money, difficulties in trade with euro countries, making Finland more vulnerable to market swings, etc. issues. It would not cause Finland's economy to drop in third world levels. Currently Finland suffers effects of strong currency and our government is trying to compensate it with by lowering salaries, benefits, etc. things that would be solved by weaker currency (of course weaker currency brings other problems which is why I am stated previously in this board that I support Finland's membership in euro) 

 

Finland's credit rating will not drop much regardless of what idiotic things and how much our government try to get it to drop get their agenda pushed through, because Finland's pension funds and other investment funds that have their capital outside of Finland have multiple times more money in them than Finland has debt. So Finland's problem isn't that it can't pay it current debts but that amount of debts are rising alarmingly fast, which means that Finland needs find way to cut out its need to import things or increase value of things that it exports.

 

But there are other economical benefits from EU that in my opinion are so high that Finland should not leave EU, although EU's constant undermining of trade with Russia hurts Finland's economy more than our politician are willing to admit. So fixing relationships with Russia should get more importance in EU than it is currently getting (although negotiations with Russia are usually done in backrooms and not in public eye, but still current state of cold hostility isn't beneficial).

Edited May 27, 2016 by Elerond

[BruceVC]

I am bit of disagreement with previous arguments about Finland's membership in EU

 

Citizens of Finland don't need visas in any of the EU countries and because of two way deals that Finland has with those countries they would not need them even if Finland leaves EU. Only thing that would change in this front would be that citizens of Finland would need to carry passport instead of just identification card, but most people carry passports anyway (And this is only in theory as there isn't border checks in EU so people can travel fairly free from country to country even without identification).

 

EU regulations don't force Finland to do anything it don't want to do. Those regulations are always approved by our government and they don't come in force before our Parliament has made them as law. People can sue Finland to EU courts if they feel that our laws are against EU directives, but even EU court decisions don't force our government do anything they are just reprimands that Finland has not done what was commonly agreed on. You can see from this refugee crisis how powerless EU is against member countries that willfully decide not to follow what was decided.

 

Currently Finland suffers from phenomenon where hedge funds use EU's treaties to move money out form Finland to countries with lower taxation like for example Luxembourg. So currently EU membership helps hedge funds to withdraw money from Finland's economy in way that they would not be able to do if Finland wasn't member state.

 

Finland is relatively rich country that actually can support its own currency, even though separating from euro would cost Finland billions of euros because of bureaucratic issues, productions cost of new money, difficulties in trade with euro countries, making Finland more vulnerable to market swings, etc. issues. It would not cause Finland's economy to drop in third world levels. Currently Finland suffers effects of strong currency and our government is trying to compensate it with by lowering salaries, benefits, etc. things that would be solved by weaker currency (of course weaker currency brings other problems which is why I am stated previously in this board that I support Finland's membership in euro) 

 

Finland's credit rating will not drop much regardless of what idiotic things and how much our government try to get it to drop get their agenda pushed through, because Finland's pension funds and other investment funds that have their capital outside of Finland have multiple times more money in them than Finland has debt. So Finland's problem isn't that it can't pay it current debts but that amount of debts are rising alarmingly fast, which means that Finland needs find way to cut out its need to import things or increase value of things that it exports.

 

But there are other economical benefits from EU that in my opinion are so high that Finland should not leave EU, although EU's constant undermining of trade with Russia hurts Finland's economy more than our politician are willing to admit. So fixing relationships with Russia should get more importance in EU than it is currently getting (although negotiations with Russia are usually done in backrooms and not in public eye, but still current state of cold hostility isn't beneficial).

 

Once again I appreciate your input

 

I was just using Finland as an example because Meshugger lives there so the points I made are more common to all countries that may decide to leave the EU but these points would be less relevant to certain EU countries than others. So you right we need to look at each country separately. Realistically I dont consider Finland a country that will ever leave the EU, this is a good thing IMO

 

But leaving  EU  will absolutely have different outcomes for different member states 

 

For example the UK will have less negative economic  impact than most EU countries if it leaves....but there will be a negative impact. The question would be " how long will it last " 

 

But I would like to discuss Finland as you have good insights. What is the Finnish economy based on...is it banking, services, tourism? Do you know percentage figures based on GDP? I know I can google this myself but I am more interested in the personal views of an actual Finnish citizen

[Chilloutman]

Whats on table now? Does Bruce confuse Shengen with EU again?

[BruceVC]

Whats on table now? Does Bruce confuse Shengen with EU again?

Thats irrelevant to the broader economic consequences of leaving the EU, so in summary my point is  most countries who leave the EU will achieve what they think matters, border control and no more orders from Brussels

 

My point is the severe economic consequences that will follow will have such a terrible impact the positive will be forgotten 

[Elerond]

 

But I would like to discuss Finland as you have good insights. What is the Finnish economy based on...is it banking, services, tourism? Do you know percentage figures based on GDP? I know I can google this myself but I am more interested in the personal views of an actual Finnish citizen

 

 

Finland's GDP is bit over 200 billion euros, Finland product export is about 56 billion euro's worth, from which chemical industry products are about 18.8%, forest industry products about 21.5%, metal industry products about 14.7%, machine products about  21%, electric products about 12% and other products about 12%. When you add services (tourism, banking etc.) then value of exported things rises to about 78 billion euros, which is about  37.9% of GDP. Finland imports stuff about 38.7% of its GDP. (This are 2014 numbers, euro amounts have grown bit from mentioned, but I don't have last years industry percentages so 2014 has to be enough )

 

Lots of Finland's GDP comes from circulating money inside of Finland (aka running our socialistic economy)

 

Big junk of chemical products consist from exporting biofuel.

Metal industry has lots of smaller companies that produce all sort of things.

Machine products consist from luxury cruisers, elevators, paper machines, forest work machines.

Electric products are also lots of smaller companies producing all sort of things.

 

But after fall of Nokia's mobile phone business there has not be one sector that clearly dominates Finland's economy.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Elerond

[Meshugger]

 

No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail?

 

But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing

 

 

 

 

Meshugger\KP I am going to share something with you that I wasn't going to  because I thought you may see it as something negative..and I'm not sure if the other members who live in the EU are aware of this 

 

 

Okay the good news and really relevant point is you should see the EU  as something grand and successful, Sure you have problems but it should be seen as an  amazing experiment that works ....yet it requires certain structures and rules. You should be very happy and content in the EU and despite some complaints like Brussels the idea of leaving the EU is not a real option

 

 

But lets say you are determined you want to leave !!!! And lets use Finland and say you represent the ruling right  party 

 

There isn't any leaving the EU, not really. This is the truth that no one wants to understand, the EU works but it could only work through components like a single currency, central financial controls and then of course the integration into the free market within the EU 

 

Its genius and many other unions tried to copy this model and failed ..like the African Union

 

But it  is also inherently a trap ...a real economic conundrum that any country wanting to leave will realize...so lets explain the ending in points and please dispute them or ask other questions 

 

• Somehow a right wing party would win the referendum in the country (this alone a herculean task ) and leave the EU
• The EU troika would  by now have given up  on this country and would be preparing Finland's  exit but they would be annoyed and would have to make a surreptitious point...a realistic but conceivable point to make sure no other countries follow Finland
• All Finish visas within the EU would be expired in 3 months or so and all Finnish citizens would be forced to return to Finland to reapply. But now most positions would be fulled by other EU candidates
• Almost every single hedge fund or investor would pull out of Finland, I cannot stress this enough as there would be almost no chance  an investor  in Finland would stay before Finland leaves the EU due to all the uncertainty around the economy
• Finland would return to using the Finnish markka, initially the value of the Finnish markka would be practicly   worthless. So we are also talking about all the numerous financial issues with using a weak currency
• There would be huge pressure on every financial instituon in Finland as the various banks work out how they will now incorporate the new currency
• The credit rating agencies  would downgrade Finland to Junk status 

 

 

All these points effectively means Finland would be under unprecedented economic pressure, I doubt anyone in Finland would remember what  its like to go from first to third world. Its not the fault of people in the EU but all these right wing groups screaming for " sovereignty ", " down with the EU " and "self-rule " are looking at this whole thing from a nationalistic perspective. They cannot possibly predict or understand the real economic pressure this will put on the counttry

 

Finally imagine the reality ....Finland leaves the EU !!! And now what? No longer does Brussels dictate policy and no longer are immigrant quotas enforced on Finland but at what cost? A country outside the EU that use to  be part of the EU seems like a lonely and ultimately pointless place to be at?

 

What real economic benefit does this bring to the citizens and that should be the only question these right wing groups should be asking themselves " does leaving the EU bring real and sustainable benefit to its citizens"  

 

For me the answer is an unequivocal NO 

 

 

So Finland is to be protected from leaving the EU on the same basis that Finland shouldn't have declared independence from Russia in 1917: Because of bad economical forecasts. Got it.

[BruceVC]

 

 

No this is necessary to protect these countries from leaving the EU...I can explain it more detail?

 

But its basically the reality that no country will leave the EU...and this is a good thing

 

 

 

 

Meshugger\KP I am going to share something with you that I wasn't going to  because I thought you may see it as something negative..and I'm not sure if the other members who live in the EU are aware of this 

 

 

Okay the good news and really relevant point is you should see the EU  as something grand and successful, Sure you have problems but it should be seen as an  amazing experiment that works ....yet it requires certain structures and rules. You should be very happy and content in the EU and despite some complaints like Brussels the idea of leaving the EU is not a real option

 

 

But lets say you are determined you want to leave !!!! And lets use Finland and say you represent the ruling right  party 

 

There isn't any leaving the EU, not really. This is the truth that no one wants to understand, the EU works but it could only work through components like a single currency, central financial controls and then of course the integration into the free market within the EU 

 

Its genius and many other unions tried to copy this model and failed ..like the African Union

 

But it  is also inherently a trap ...a real economic conundrum that any country wanting to leave will realize...so lets explain the ending in points and please dispute them or ask other questions 

 

• Somehow a right wing party would win the referendum in the country (this alone a herculean task ) and leave the EU
• The EU troika would  by now have given up  on this country and would be preparing Finland's  exit but they would be annoyed and would have to make a surreptitious point...a realistic but conceivable point to make sure no other countries follow Finland
• All Finish visas within the EU would be expired in 3 months or so and all Finnish citizens would be forced to return to Finland to reapply. But now most positions would be fulled by other EU candidates
• Almost every single hedge fund or investor would pull out of Finland, I cannot stress this enough as there would be almost no chance  an investor  in Finland would stay before Finland leaves the EU due to all the uncertainty around the economy
• Finland would return to using the Finnish markka, initially the value of the Finnish markka would be practicly   worthless. So we are also talking about all the numerous financial issues with using a weak currency
• There would be huge pressure on every financial instituon in Finland as the various banks work out how they will now incorporate the new currency
• The credit rating agencies  would downgrade Finland to Junk status 

 

 

All these points effectively means Finland would be under unprecedented economic pressure, I doubt anyone in Finland would remember what  its like to go from first to third world. Its not the fault of people in the EU but all these right wing groups screaming for " sovereignty ", " down with the EU " and "self-rule " are looking at this whole thing from a nationalistic perspective. They cannot possibly predict or understand the real economic pressure this will put on the counttry

 

Finally imagine the reality ....Finland leaves the EU !!! And now what? No longer does Brussels dictate policy and no longer are immigrant quotas enforced on Finland but at what cost? A country outside the EU that use to  be part of the EU seems like a lonely and ultimately pointless place to be at?

 

What real economic benefit does this bring to the citizens and that should be the only question these right wing groups should be asking themselves " does leaving the EU bring real and sustainable benefit to its citizens"  

 

For me the answer is an unequivocal NO 

 

 

So Finland is to be protected from leaving the EU on the same basis that Finland shouldn't have declared independence from Russia in 1917: Because of bad economical forecasts. Got it.

 

It may sound simplistic and myopic but yes, the economic outcome should be the most influential

 

The problem is groups like the right wing, nationalists or EU skeptics have helped to change the narrative where this is not the focus

 

What do you think is more relevant?

[majestic]

 

Newsflash: the most prosperous Yuroppan countries are outside the EU.

You very seldom follow-up on certain interesting comments you make so I hope you do on this one

What is your definition of "Yuroppan countries are outside the EU"

 

 

Oh Bruce, really, HoonDing is all about shooting one-liners and not following up on anything. Sometimes he has a point, and sometimes, like here, he doesn't.

 

Besides, with a minimal amount of research you'd figure it out: There are only two truly prosperous European nations that are not members of the European Union: Norway and Switzerland (I apologize to any posters from Iceland ). The former draws most of its wealth from natural resources and the latter from all sorts of criminal cash deposits (I'd write no offense meant but that wold be a lie ).

 

While both are not members of the EU they all have a large number of treaties with the EU and enjoy many benefits without the most perceivable downsides like net budget contributions and overbearing EU regulations, but also the downside of being affected by some EU regulations without being able to partake in the decision making process. So far it would seem the, uhm, benefits outweigh the downsides.

 

For populist parties they're also generally the go-to examples of wealthy states that do not need the EU to be prosperous, but it's very problematic to assume a nation could leave the EU and copy either Norway or Switzerland because of their very unique positions.

 

Both could, though, serve as a template for a much needed EU reform by cutting back on the bureaucratic overhead and taking a few steps back to what the EU used to be in the past, a unifying economic pact, not a supra-national entity steeped in indecision and corruption.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Newsflash: the most prosperous Yuroppan countries are outside the EU.

You very seldom follow-up on certain interesting comments you make so I hope you do on this one

What is your definition of "Yuroppan countries are outside the EU"

 

 

Oh Bruce, really, HoonDing is all about shooting one-liners and not following up on anything. Sometimes he has a point, and sometimes, like here, he doesn't.

 

Besides, with a minimal amount of research you'd figure it out: There are only two truly prosperous European nations that are not members of the European Union: Norway and Switzerland (I apologize to any posters from Iceland ). The former draws most of its wealth from natural resources and the latter from all sorts of criminal cash deposits (I'd write no offense meant but that wold be a lie ).

 

While both are not members of the EU they all have a large number of treaties with the EU and enjoy many benefits without the most perceivable downsides like net budget contributions and overbearing EU regulations, but also the downside of being affected by some EU regulations without being able to partake in the decision making process. So far it would seem the, uhm, benefits outweigh the downsides.

 

For populist parties they're also generally the go-to examples of wealthy states that do not need the EU to be prosperous, but it's very problematic to assume a nation could leave the EU and copy either Norway or Switzerland because of their very unique positions.

 

Both could, though, serve as a template for a much needed EU reform by cutting back on the bureaucratic overhead and taking a few steps back to what the EU used to be in the past, a unifying economic pact, not a supra-national entity steeped in indecision and corruption.

 

You have made  some very good observations and comments, thanks for sharing 

 

Yes I agree about Hoonding, he often makes interesting points but then refuses to get pulled into a debate. I am always fascinated by human nature and the human psyche. In RL I find it relatively easy to understand human nature and expected results but I find myself often confused by the responses of some people on forums like this. For example going back to Hoonding he clearly has knowledge of certain things we discuss yet he wont go into detail once he initiates the conversation...its a strange way to interact with people?

 

I see what you guys mean by those two countries and as you said the right wing would make the comparison but my whole argument is to leave the EU once you are member for many years is much harder than people may assume. The entire way a country's financial, economic and political structures become aligned to how the EU requires them to be. So now you want to leave the EU and revert back to previous structures....fine in theory but much harder to do in practice  

[obyknven]

Mordornews. Russians send Gypsies GTFO.

 

http://youtu.be/5VH5TpQ7coA

 

http://youtu.be/3WuYgPg_oLQ

[Gorth]

For me the answer is an unequivocal NO

That is the exact kind of scare mongering based on no facts whatsoever that makes people fed with politics... entirely anecdotal, but it sounds like a copy and paste of the scare campaign that the political and corporate establishment used to try to bully the Danes into voting yes to Maastricht in 1992 and guess what? They voted no and gave the politician, corporate leaders and most of all EU the middle finger. Either the EU would bend and drop trying to integrate Denmark further into the bureaucratic muck or Denmark would leave. several decades later, Denmark isn't a smoking crater in the ground where people live in tent camps, fed by scraps generously donated by our better off neighbours

[Meshugger]

Dalai Lama weighs in on the refugee crisis: https://web.archive.org/web/20160531155702/http://www.ibtimes.com/refugee-crisis-europe-2016-dalai-lama-says-there-are-too-many-asylum-seekers-eu-2376054

 

 

 

 "Europe, Germany in particular, cannot become an Arab country, Germany is Germany," he added.

 

*yawn* another pointless "we need to open our hearts and our borders"-diatribe, WAIT WHAT?

[Oerwinde]

Dalai Lama weighs in on the refugee crisis: https://web.archive.org/web/20160531155702/http://www.ibtimes.com/refugee-crisis-europe-2016-dalai-lama-says-there-are-too-many-asylum-seekers-eu-2376054

 

 

"Europe, Germany in particular, cannot become an Arab country, Germany is Germany," he added.

*yawn* another pointless "we need to open our hearts and our borders"-diatribe, WAIT WHAT?

He can't very well rail against mass han chinese migration to Tibet changing the identity of the region, then think its ok elsewhere. Plus he was good friends with various nazis and other nationalists.