European Refugee Crisis

[BruceVC]

@Rostere,

 

If you so easily denounce these claims, than perhaps bring out the data from police, lets say compare 70s rates per 1000 citizens, then 80s, 90s, etc. then apply the place of occurance. Which districs, which towns and match with the population ratios in those areas.

 

IF i knew swedish I would probably do it myself out of simple curiosity.

Dark I can guarantee you Rostere is correct, thats why I said in an earlier debate " I don't believe the Swedish migration system is a failure" 

 

This is good news by the way, it means there is less reason to question the sustainability of the EU...end of the day surly we all want the EU to survive and prosper ?

[Darkpriest]

 

 

 

Simply put, western civilization is defined by its culture, which is defined by its people. The christian heritage is part of all of us, no matter how much we deny it, it's part of our foundation. That doesn't mean that it requires a stateman to be religious or to quote the bible, but it doesn't mean either that one can deny that christian ethics, spirituality, code of conduct, social interaction, philosophical judgement, sense of justice and base values are not the product of his existence. 

 

 

Western culture is just as much a product of ancient Greek and Enlightenment traditions, I'm really not seeing why do you want to single out christianity as a uniquely relevant part of these cultural pillars.

 

 

Because claiming that the christian ethics, the concept of redemption and ethos, not to mention architecture and art having no bearing on the European heritage is wishful thinking at best. 

 

 

To be frank, both have similar impact. The Greeko-Roman culutre was inspiration for the humanism in 15 century, at the same time we cannot forget about our own gains, which were made during the medieval ages and later progressed alongside of humanism. Then you get the protestants and their ethos of work in religious pursuit.

 

Europe is a really mix of interesting ideas that had roots in various concepts, but through that it made its own identity. THe problem now is, that we have watered down our cultural roots and we are becoming shapless mix, which does not really know as a whole what is the core value around which we will move forward.

 

Other distinctive cultures do not have this issue. Muslims are driven by Islam, Chinese are driven by taoism, but moreso by the mandarinizm and imperial heritage, plus they see themsleves as a whole community instead of set of individuals (Islam is similar in this regard).

 

So yeah... good luck

[Darkpriest]

 

@Rostere,

 

If you so easily denounce these claims, than perhaps bring out the data from police, lets say compare 70s rates per 1000 citizens, then 80s, 90s, etc. then apply the place of occurance. Which districs, which towns and match with the population ratios in those areas.

 

IF i knew swedish I would probably do it myself out of simple curiosity.

Dark I can guarantee you Rostere is correct, thats why I said in an earlier debate " I don't believe the Swedish migration system is a failure" 

 

This is good news by the way, it means there is less reason to question the sustainability of the EU...end of the day surly we all want the EU to survive and prosper ?

 

 

On what basis do you guarantee that? If you have a set of hard data that proves this, please share it with me. I shared with you and compared statistics in regards to crimes and also how the life looked in Switzerland in 80s

[BruceVC]

 

 

@Rostere,

 

If you so easily denounce these claims, than perhaps bring out the data from police, lets say compare 70s rates per 1000 citizens, then 80s, 90s, etc. then apply the place of occurance. Which districs, which towns and match with the population ratios in those areas.

 

IF i knew swedish I would probably do it myself out of simple curiosity.

Dark I can guarantee you Rostere is correct, thats why I said in an earlier debate " I don't believe the Swedish migration system is a failure" 

 

This is good news by the way, it means there is less reason to question the sustainability of the EU...end of the day surly we all want the EU to survive and prosper ?

 

 

On what basis do you guarantee that? If you have a set of hard data that proves this, please share it with me. I shared with you and compared statistics in regards to crimes and also how the life looked in Switzerland in 80s

 

Rostere will present evidence  if he wants ..but he is very bright and reasonable so I do believe him

 

But its not up to me to present evidence about Sweden 

[Meshugger]

As for rapes and immigrants. While i have a friend who is a defence lawyer who claims that middle eastern and african men are 1) highly overrepresented as clients accused for committing rape compared to their size of the local population, 2) are more likely to be accused of more serious kinds of rape (locals usually are accused of rape within marriage or partnership, committed at home) and 3) seem to have the most ridiculous reasons for explaining themselves ("All finnish women are whores, what wrong did i do? Whores should not be respected", "She gave me a kiss, that means she wanted sex. Only loose women kiss", "She didn't have male companionship, therefore it was ok to rape", etc) 4) Sometimes fails to understand the concept of what rape is. But that is just one guy telling another guy about his clients, but it still can cloud my judgement.

 

But there's also the weird thing when comparing Sweden and Finland. Swedish men are often regarded as effeminate, metrosexual, nice and tolerant, but at the same time there was 6500 rapes in Sweden in 2014 (which is only about 1/5 of the reported ones, leaving to more than 30 000 rapes in total), compared to Finland who had 1000 (with 1/4 being reported, making it 4000 in total). What is more remarkable is that the amount of rapes have doubled in Finland within the last 10 years. But anyhow, the high amount of rape collides with the public image of what swedish males are, so something is amiss.

 

Adding the general unrest in Malmö, Gothenburg and the uprising in Husby, Stockholm, I do not think that it is coincidence that this trend is partly the reason why the anti-immigrant party in Sweden is polling at 20% at the moment.

 

Personally, i think that if you import a lot of people from cultures where women have to be fully clothed, because otherwise the weak male cannot control themselves and assault them, or that a women without a male escort is seen as open season, or that women by law are less valuable than men, and finally in a case of rape, need 4-5 males witnesses admitting that a rape took place, you will have some problems. Approach the problems rationally and take action accordingly instead of swiping it under the rug is the only solution. 

 

But the counter-demonstration by asylum seekers condemning the rapists in Kempele shows that it is possible for change when it comes from the immigrant-community themselves, even if it is baby-steps.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

Simply put, western civilization is defined by its culture, which is defined by its people. The christian heritage is part of all of us, no matter how much we deny it, it's part of our foundation. That doesn't mean that it requires a stateman to be religious or to quote the bible, but it doesn't mean either that one can deny that christian ethics, spirituality, code of conduct, social interaction, philosophical judgement, sense of justice and base values are not the product of his existence. 

 

 

Western culture is just as much a product of ancient Greek and Enlightenment traditions, I'm really not seeing why do you want to single out christianity as a uniquely relevant part of these cultural pillars.

 

 

Because claiming that the christian ethics, the concept of redemption and ethos, not to mention architecture and art having no bearing on the European heritage is wishful thinking at best. 

 

 

To be frank, both have similar impact. The Greeko-Roman culutre was inspiration for the humanism in 15 century, at the same time we cannot forget about our own gains, which were made during the medieval ages and later progressed alongside of humanism. Then you get the protestants and their ethos of work in religious pursuit.

 

Europe is a really mix of interesting ideas that had roots in various concepts, but through that it made its own identity. THe problem now is, that we have watered down our cultural roots and we are becoming shapless mix, which does not really know as a whole what is the core value around which we will move forward.

 

Other distinctive cultures do not have this issue. Muslims are driven by Islam, Chinese are driven by taoism, but moreso by the mandarinizm and imperial heritage, plus they see themsleves as a whole community instead of set of individuals (Islam is similar in this regard).

 

So yeah... good luck

 

 

Well, Augustine and Aquinas adopted some aristotelean and platoan methods for their theological work, i would say that the lines of thought are a bit intertwined. But hey, Merkel now says that Islam is essential to the German identity and spirit, so that must be more true......meh.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Chinese are driven by taoism

 

 

lol

[BruceVC]

As for rapes and immigrants. While i have a friend who is a defence lawyer who claims that middle eastern and african men are 1) highly overrepresented as clients accused for committing rape compared to their size of the local population, 2) are more likely to be accused of more serious kinds of rape (locals usually are accused of rape within marriage or partnership, committed at home) and 3) seem to have the most ridiculous reasons for explaining themselves ("All finnish women are whores, what wrong did i do? Whores should not be respected", "She gave me a kiss, that means she wanted sex. Only loose women kiss", "She didn't have male companionship, therefore it was ok to rape", etc) 4) Sometimes fails to understand the concept of what rape is. But that is just one guy telling another guy about his clients, but it still can cloud my judgement.

 

But there's also the weird thing when comparing Sweden and Finland. Swedish men are often regarded as effeminate, metrosexual, nice and tolerant, but at the same time there was 6500 rapes in Sweden in 2014 (which is only about 1/5 of the reported ones, leaving to more than 30 000 rapes in total), compared to Finland who had 1000 (with 1/4 being reported, making it 4000 in total). What is more remarkable is that the amount of rapes have doubled in Finland within the last 10 years. But anyhow, the high amount of rape collides with the public image of what swedish males are, so something is amiss.

 

Adding the general unrest in Malmö, Gothenburg and the uprising in Husby, Stockholm, I do not think that it is coincidence that this trend is partly the reason why the anti-immigrant party in Sweden is polling at 20% at the moment.

 

Personally, i think that if you import a lot of people from cultures where women have to be fully clothed, because otherwise the weak male cannot control themselves and assault them, or that a women without a male escort is seen as open season, or that women by law are less valuable than men, and finally in a case of rape, need 4-5 males witnesses admitting that a rape took place, you will have some problems. Approach the problems rationally and take action accordingly instead of swiping it under the rug is the only solution. 

 

But the counter-demonstration by asylum seekers condemning the rapists in Kempele shows that it is possible for change when it comes from the immigrant-community themselves, even if it is baby-steps.

Now this is an interesting post, I am not sure if its true but it does raise some debatable points 

[Zoraptor]

BruceVC, on 02 Dec 2015 - 03:24 AM, said:

Your idea of Western Culture is a state with neoliberal ideals?

 

 

Bruce's definition of the fantastic characteristics of western civilisation is, well, what Bruce himself believes (or purports to believe to get responses). Utterly unsurprising.

 

Though I suspect in this case he'd be far from alone in that.

[Drowsy Emperor]

And I would like Rostere to explain this:

 

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate

 

Sweden being the sixth country out of 119 countries at number of rapes per 100000, twice as many as the next western country (Belgium, then Iceland, Norway, France with substantially less).

 

In 2014, there were 6,700 rapes reported to the Swedish police—or 69 cases per 100,000 population—according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (BRÅ ), which is an 11 percent increase from the previous year.[6] The number of convictions has remained relatively unchanged since 2005, with approximately 190 convictions on average each year.[7][8] The BRÅ has not released detailed data on rape committed by immigrants since 1996, but according to that report individuals with an immigrant background made up 61% of all rape convictions between 1985 and 1989.

 

 

Old information, but having 61% of all rape committed by immigrants that are 14.3% of the population seems to indicate a clear problem.

[Darkpriest]

 

 

Chinese are driven by taoism

 

 

lol

 

 

ok, not everyone, mostly confucionism i realized i made a mistake when i posted that but now it is modernized to fit into a rule of the prime ruling party.

 

There is a reason why China was successful and why now it faces a hard transition into more domestic consumption driven economy

 

again, still at a core the culture of mandarins ruling China is very strong

Edited December 1, 2015 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

 

BruceVC, on 02 Dec 2015 - 03:24 AM, said:

Your idea of Western Culture is a state with neoliberal ideals?

 

 

Bruce's definition of the fantastic characteristics of western civilisation is, well, what Bruce himself believes (or purports to believe to get responses). Utterly unsurprising.

 

Though I suspect in this case he'd be far from alone in that.

 

Yes Zora, the West offers its citizens the best quality of life and has the happiest citizens in the world

 

But these aren't just my words, they are fact 

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/03/20/international-happiness-day-happiest-countries/25073055/

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/23/travel/feat-world-happiest-countries-2015/index.html

 

http://themysteriousworld.com/10-happiest-countries-in-the-world/

 

 

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2014/05/05/the-happiest-countries-in-the-world-5/2/

 

 

But you know whats really ironic. You always provide us with " informed and reasonable " information about how corrupt, inconsistent and hypocritical the West is ....yet you live in a first world Western country. You will say  " Russia needs to invade Turkey "  behind the luxury of your first world Western comfort 

 

Don't you feel like a hypocrite?

Edited December 1, 2015 by BruceVC

[Zoraptor]

I'd only feel like a hypocrite if I advised people to ignore your trolling and deliberate provocations then spent pages responding to your drivel myself, Bruciekins. As it is I content myself with the occasional one liner.

[BruceVC]

I'd only feel like a hypocrite if I advised people to ignore your trolling and deliberate provocations then spent pages responding to your drivel myself, Bruciekins. As it is I content myself with the occasional one liner.

I wish you would stop ignoring me, I often disagree with you ....but its not personal. I enjoy having debates with you 

 

 

But I would like you to ruminate on where you live and how fortunate you are ....yet you question why I say the West offers the best quality of life to its citizens 

[213374U]

Because claiming that the christian ethics, the concept of redemption and ethos, not to mention architecture and art having no bearing on the European heritage is wishful thinking at best.

 

Can you like, put away the strawman for just a second? Nobody has argued that Christian influence has "no bearing" on the European heritage. In fact, we have asserted the opposite, but also that it is not the only thing that defines European culture. Whatever the hell that is, anyway. Am I also "arguing for the sake of arguing" now?

 

 

 

As for rapes and immigrants. While i have a friend who is a defence lawyer who claims that middle eastern and african men are 1) highly overrepresented as clients accused for committing rape compared to their size of the local population, 2) are more likely to be accused of more serious kinds of rape (locals usually are accused of rape within marriage or partnership, committed at home) and 3) seem to have the most ridiculous reasons for explaining themselves ("All finnish women are whores, what wrong did i do? Whores should not be respected", "She gave me a kiss, that means she wanted sex. Only loose women kiss", "She didn't have male companionship, therefore it was ok to rape", etc) 4) Sometimes fails to understand the concept of what rape is. But that is just one guy telling another guy about his clients, but it still can cloud my judgement.

 

But there's also the weird thing when comparing Sweden and Finland. Swedish men are often regarded as effeminate, metrosexual, nice and tolerant, but at the same time there was 6500 rapes in Sweden in 2014 (which is only about 1/5 of the reported ones, leaving to more than 30 000 rapes in total), compared to Finland who had 1000 (with 1/4 being reported, making it 4000 in total). What is more remarkable is that the amount of rapes have doubled in Finland within the last 10 years. But anyhow, the high amount of rape collides with the public image of what swedish males are, so something is amiss.

Regarding Middle Eastern/African men being accused of "more serious kinds of rape", lolwut? Marital rape is rape. From this I suspect that somebody doesn't understand what the concept of rape is. I'll give you a hint: it's you.

 

If there were only 6,500 reported rapes in Sweden in 2014, how do you know that there were 5 times more actual occurrences? How do you know that reported rapes in Finland amount to 25% of all occurrences? Because Amnesty International estimates it's actually 2-10%. Do you have any more current estimates?

 

And please, elaborate on how Swedish men are "often regarded" as effeminate. By whom, your lawyer friend too? What is this "public image" of Swedish males? And most importantly, what the **** does that **** have to do with anything?

 

 

Edited December 2, 2015 by 213374U

[Qistina]

 

 

And no Qistina, Islam hasn't invented anything. It was done by Persians, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, etc. The sooner you let go of such whimsical musings, the sooner your people will actually read books again and before you know it, you'll have your renaissance you will be walking on the moon.

 

Of course, Islam is just a religion...but this religion moved it's followers, the Arabs, to learn all knowledge available. Islam changed the Arabs from being ignorant into enlightenment. The first revelation in Quran is "Read, in the name of Allah who created you from blood clot". That's the first step. What i mean is Islam is a catalyst for changes in which makes the Arabs are knowledge hungry.

 

That's the Arabs, of course Muslims are not just the Arabs, there are Persians, Turkish, Spaniards, Moorish, Chinese, Malays...and on and on...every Muslims bring on own knowledges and share it, contribute it to Islam. That's why you can see everything found by Muslims either it was original or originated from somewhere, it is contribute to Islam. Persian Muslims don't contribute it to Persia, and so others toward their nationality, but to Islam.

 

Al Khwarizmi who created the Algebra, originally Al-Jabbar, he study Hindu numerology, and so many others, and making mathematical formula for what? For Islam...it is for Muslims to make easy counting the zakat, the alms, and make bearings toward Makkah for prayer and pilgrimage. You can't deny it is contribution from islam because Algebra is created for Islam.

 

The same in chemistry, it was Al-Khemyt, then Alchemy...it was Egyptian knowledge, learned by the Muslim Arabs for what? To learn the truth behind all things, the truth about Allah creations. What motivate the Arabs to learn that knowledge is Islam. from there the knowledge evolved and spread to the west, becoming modern chemistry.

 

You can't deny islam contribution to the world because it is too many. If there is no islam, the world don't change into what we see today.

 

 

Oh, no one is denying that Islamic scholars took Hindu, Greek and other scriptures, translated and finally developed them. But the thing is, you have all this innovation taken place when the islamic laws were the most laxed. After turning back to being closer to the scripture and focusing on out-islaming one another, all that knowledge is rendered moot and you are left with people thinking what knowledge is haram or not. All while the Iranians, who are waaaay more secular, especially the youth, are making great progress. Maybe the islamic world never emotionally recovered from the destruction of Baghdad by the Mongols, who knows. Interesting anecdote though that the Iranians have continued this tradition compared to others, either they have fallen or the Persian influence was greater that you would like to admit. Maybe they as a people, as a culture, nurture such traditions compared to the frivolous Arabs, but i admit that this last part is still speculation from my side.

 

Besides, one can say the same thing about the Romans. Or the Han dynasty in China. 

 

 

But you are denying Islam contribution to the world, that's the issue and that what makes Muslims defensive. If you can put aside your sentiment toward Islam and admit Islam do bring something good, at least in the past, no one will give you a knee jerk reaction. Western historians are always biased because of Europe centricism, for example you never know that SEA was a Muslim empire and advance isn't it? Because no one told you that. It is forgotten history.

 

It is just natural human will learn from eachother, it is natural that knowledge evolved and developed, no one can claim this and that originated here and there. But you can't deny certain group of people do dedicate themselves in knowledge pursuit and come out with something new. And today it is the western world and Japan, Muslim world become backward, it just normal, it is a cycle. When we look at history we must look at the whole....

 

Example is here...do you know Indian ocean trade route? Knowledge can passed through trades, we all learned from eachother through trades, new technology and new knowledge come in and out, but this stopped after western messed up everything in Indian ocean trade route...

 

Edited December 2, 2015 by Qistina

[Darkpriest]

ehhh.... ok two reports, first Eurostat with combined voilent crimes (for some reason they did not want to exclude rapes as a seperate category), but even here you can see where the rates are very high that had also trouble reducing it, and which countries have it fairly low and in fact are moving it down in most cases. i.e. the split is between the countries with high immigrant and variety rates and little immigrant history and fairly homogenic. This report shows the total number in thousands. I do not really want to make additional work, but if you divide these numbers into factors of per 1k capita, then probably it would show even worse picture for those immigrant heavy countries:

 

Violent crime

The figures for violent crime comprise those for violence against the person (such as physical assault), robbery (stealing by force or threat of force) and sexual offences (including rape and sexual assault).

 

 

I found an OECD related report done by CIVITAS:

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf

 

The only thing that surprised me are the rates in Australia and New Zealand

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

ehhh.... ok two reports, first Eurostat with combined voilent crimes (for some reason they did not want to exclude rapes as a seperate category), but even here you can see where the rates are very high that had also trouble reducing it, and which countries have it fairly low and in fact are moving it down in most cases. i.e. the split is between the countries with high immigrant and variety rates and little immigrant history and fairly homogenic. This report shows the total number in thousands. I do not really want to make additional work, but if you divide these numbers into factors of per 1k capita, then probably it would show even worse picture for those immigrant heavy countries:

 

Violent crime

The figures for violent crime comprise those for violence against the person (such as physical assault), robbery (stealing by force or threat of force) and sexual offences (including rape and sexual assault).

 

 

I found an OECD related report done by CIVITAS:

 

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf

 

The only thing that surprised me are the rates in Australia and New Zealand

I am not trying to come across as boastful but my initial assessment was right about crime being slightly higher in East European countries 

[Darkpriest]

Was it? East Europe is:

 

Bulgaria  7.3k    (7.2 mln ppl)

Czech    19k       (10.5 mln)

Estonia   6.1k     (1.3 mln)

Latvia  1.4k           (2 mln)

Lithuania 2.8k        (2.9 mln)

Hungary   37.4k    (9.9 mln)            (the only which rose in that period)

Poland   45.6k       (38.5 mln)

Slovakia  7.2k        (5.4 mln)

 

you can pull there also Serbia and Slovenia if they want to be there, but I'd say there are more balkan than East Eu

 

I hope you are not looking at the last part with the index. The column with values cuts off in the middle (2012 year)

 

Now lets see:

 

UK - 719k      (63mln)

France - 277k and this is without a large chunk becasue the report from Gendarmeri was not included, if you look at prior year it was 353k and rising        (67 mln)

Germany - 195k      (81mln)

Sweden - 46 k       (9.8 mln)

 

Here, in excel for you:

 

                           Voilent crimes   Population  Per 1000 capita

Bulgaria                    7,300          7,200,000         1.01

Czech                       19,000        10,500,000      1.81

Estonia                       6,100          1,300,000      4.69

Latvia                       1,400          2,000,000         0.70

Lithuania                  2,800          2,900,000        0.97

Hungary                  37,400          9,900,000        3.78

Poland                    45,600        38,500,000        1.18

Slovakia                    7,200          5,400,000        1.33        

 

UK                         719,000        63,000,000       11.41

France                  353,000        67,000,000         5.27

Germany                195,000        81,000,000        2.41

Sweden                  46,000          9,800,000          4.69

 

You can do for the rest if you want. The only East EU countries with fairly high factors are Estonia and Hungary, others have near 1 voilent crime per 1000 population. the countries selected from West EU have much higher. To be honest I was surprised by UK that it is that high.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

Was it? East Europe is:

 

Bulgaria  7.3k    (7.2 mln ppl)

Czech    19k       (10.5 mln)

Estonia   6.1k     (1.3 mln)

Latvia  1.4k           (2 mln)

Lithuania 2.8k        (2.9 mln)

Hungary   37.4k    (9.9 mln)            (the only which rose in that period)

Poland   45.6k       (38.5 mln)

Slovakia  7.2k        (5.4 mln)

 

you can pull there also Serbia and Slovenia if they want to be there, but I'd say there are more balkan than East Eu

 

I hope you are not looking at the last part with the index. The column with values cuts off in the middle (2012 year)

 

Now lets see:

 

UK - 719k      (63mln)

France - 277k and this is without a large chunk becasue the report from Gendarmeri was not included, if you look at prior year it was 353k and rising        (67 mln)

Germany - 195k      (81mln)

Sweden - 46 k       (9.8 mln)

 

Here, in excel for you:

 

                           Voilent crimes   Population  Per 1000 capita

Bulgaria                    7,300          7,200,000         1.01

Czech                       19,000        10,500,000      1.81

Estonia                       6,100          1,300,000      4.69

Latvia                       1,400          2,000,000         0.70

Lithuania                  2,800          2,900,000        0.97

Hungary                  37,400          9,900,000        3.78

Poland                    45,600        38,500,000        1.18

Slovakia                    7,200          5,400,000        1.33        

 

UK                         719,000        63,000,000       11.41

France                  353,000        67,000,000         5.27

Germany                195,000        81,000,000        2.41

Sweden                  46,000          9,800,000          4.69

 

You can do for the rest if you want. The only East EU countries with fairly high factors are Estonia and Hungary, others have near 1 voilent crime per 1000 population. the countries selected from West EU have much higher. To be honest I was surprised by UK that it is that high.

Yes I was looking at the last column

[Meshugger]

 

Because claiming that the christian ethics, the concept of redemption and ethos, not to mention architecture and art having no bearing on the European heritage is wishful thinking at best.

 

Can you like, put away the strawman for just a second? Nobody has argued that Christian influence has "no bearing" on the European heritage. In fact, we have asserted the opposite, but also that it is not the only thing that defines European culture. Whatever the hell that is, anyway. Am I also "arguing for the sake of arguing" now?

 

I was responding to alumni about the christian heritage, not to you. Who's we? What are you talking about arguing for the sake of arguing, did the quote system break?

 

 

As for rapes and immigrants. While i have a friend who is a defence lawyer who claims that middle eastern and african men are 1) highly overrepresented as clients accused for committing rape compared to their size of the local population, 2) are more likely to be accused of more serious kinds of rape (locals usually are accused of rape within marriage or partnership, committed at home) and 3) seem to have the most ridiculous reasons for explaining themselves ("All finnish women are whores, what wrong did i do? Whores should not be respected", "She gave me a kiss, that means she wanted sex. Only loose women kiss", "She didn't have male companionship, therefore it was ok to rape", etc) 4) Sometimes fails to understand the concept of what rape is. But that is just one guy telling another guy about his clients, but it still can cloud my judgement.

 

But there's also the weird thing when comparing Sweden and Finland. Swedish men are often regarded as effeminate, metrosexual, nice and tolerant, but at the same time there was 6500 rapes in Sweden in 2014 (which is only about 1/5 of the reported ones, leaving to more than 30 000 rapes in total), compared to Finland who had 1000 (with 1/4 being reported, making it 4000 in total). What is more remarkable is that the amount of rapes have doubled in Finland within the last 10 years. But anyhow, the high amount of rape collides with the public image of what swedish males are, so something is amiss.

Regarding Middle Eastern/African men being accused of "more serious kinds of rape", lolwut? Marital rape is rape. From this I suspect that somebody doesn't understand what the concept of rape is. I'll give you a hint: it's you.

 

If there were only 6,500 reported rapes in Sweden in 2014, how do you know that there were 5 times more actual occurrences? How do you know that reported rapes in Finland amount to 25% of all occurrences? Because Amnesty International estimates it's actually 2-10%. Do you have any more current estimates?

 

And please, elaborate on how Swedish men are "often regarded" as effeminate. By whom, your lawyer friend too? What is this "public image" of Swedish males? And most importantly, what the **** does that **** have to do with anything?

 

There is a difference in rape because they are classified as such by law and thus sentenced as such as well. What my lawyer friend stated was that finnish men are usually convicted of rape within marriages, were there it usually boils down to the wife not being in the mood and the drunken husband would have none of it, which in turn leaves very little to no physical evidence and the case is mostly based on testimony by the accused and accuser. In those cases, finnish men are overrepresented. However, when i refer to "serious kinds of rape", it is the legal term used here, as it leaves with longer sentences. This is when we are talking about surprise gangrapes ending with the victim bleading from both holes, clothes ripped apart, the victim being hospitalized and suffering such physical or mental trauma that they have difficulty taking the stand in court....here it is that middle eastern and african men are clearly overrepresented compared to the local population. If you want to argue against that, you have to argue against the whole legal system and practice of justice, which is really something worth a thread of it's own. 

 

As for the numbers, here is the source of the swedish rapes: http://www.hs.fi/paivanlehti/14022015/a1423815249949

 

Translated:

 

 

In Sweden, for sexual offenses is spoken in public a lot more than in Finland. Nevertheless, the police seem to have sexual offense notices in Sweden in relation to even less than in Finland, only an estimated 10-20 per cent of all sexual offenses. The Swedish figures are taken from the Swedish Ministry of Justice Research Institute under Bråsta.

 

Researcher Klara Hradilova Selin says that providing reasons for tabling in Sweden has studied reliably.

 

"It is known that the more violent the crime is, the more likely it will be announced to the police. Instead of notifying leaving most likely to occur when the author is familiar."

 

Finnish rapes: http://www.hs.fi/paivanlehti/14022015/a1423815351567

 

The graph says the following about the unreported rapes: "I didn't report being raped because":

 

46% - It was a private matter

31% - I didn't see it as a serious matter

24% - I thought that it wasn't a matter for the police

17% - I didn't think that the police were capable of doing anything

8% - I didn't think that the police were even interested in it in the first place

 

Rough translation:

 

Sexual crime victims a belittles or ashamed of their own experience, and notify the police.

 

According to a recent police Barometer 2014 survey, in only one in four sexual harassment or violence on the people involved reported the matter to the police.

 

Three of the four left, therefore, without notice. Nearly half of them failed to notify because they kept the matter private. Thus the number of believers has increased by 15 percentage points from two years ago when the issue was last examined. One in four did not think a matter for the police. A third again did not consider the offense serious enough.

 

Rape Crisis woman's legal work Development Manager Riitta Silver keeps worrying phenomenon.

 

"The front is made of long-term work, so that it does not remain merely notify a private matter. The matter is, for example, provided for the authorities," says Silver.

 

Rape is currently the subject of criminal prosecution. The prosecutor can bring charges even if the victim does not want the perpetrator be punished.

 

Except for types of offense, including the victim and the offender crime ratio has the effect of making declarations.

 

"Silence of the studies it is known already that the notification willingness to significantly reduce, if the author is a member of the family or other close," Silver says.

Related article

 

    Picking: In Sweden, just one in ten reported to the police 02.14.2015

 

Counsellor Kirsi Porras Family Federation estimates that discredit simply affected by fear.

 

"Rape or violent rape is often understood as a clear matter for the police, while sexual harassment is not necessarily in the same manner unknown, and the victim may be afraid, to enable him to even seriously," Porras explains.

 

In less severe cases, the victim may not understand have been the victim of the crime.

 

"Identify perhaps a bad feeling, but do not understand why that is." "

 

Porras that sexual offenses are created, should be made clearer in society known.

 

"At present, the victim reads the text of the law, and not necessarily even realize that it can also apply to him," Porras image.

 

Victim Support Executive Director Leena-Kaisa Åberg says that especially young people may have difficulty recognizing the crime occurred.

 

"This also applies to other crimes, but especially sex crimes are typically hidden crime, which does not necessarily come from the" Åberg says.

 

Although the deed to recognize, notification may not want to shackle the fear to go in the process.

 

"Many simply do not have enough of the right information, for example, legal processes. The image of lawsuits may be based on the television series," Åberg believes.

 

Åberg points out that meeting the EU this year, going from crime victimization Directive obliges Member States to organize crime victims clearly support even before the police report submission.

 

"For example, the crime victim emergency services can ask your support person, who can come along to leave the notice, the police interrogation, and later in the trial."

 

Finally as for the public image of swedish men, my mistake if you haven't noticed. But at least here in the nordic countries they have always been seen as a bunch of sissies, a bit gay and unmanly. It is pretty much part of the public collective consciousness and people laugh about it. So when people hear about a huge amount of rapes, it pretty much shatters that old conception. Just to illustrate this, the following examples are from the biggest comedy show in Finland:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw3e64sosEg

[Blarghagh]

What the heck is this thread even about anymore? Closed for length and being entirely derailed. Someone can make another thread on the European Refugee Crisis as long as it holds to the forum guidelines?