Anyone else just waiting?

[Lord_Mord]

@Kilburn & Zenbane: What is your problem? I think we agree that the truth lies somewhere in between. In PoE you have too much money available too soon. That does not mean, that you shouldn't be filthy rich at some point in the game, it's just too early. I think what Zenbane tries to say is, that in a game like PoE (maybe in every game?) success shouldn't be a matter of ressources, but of strategy. At the beginning of the game this isn't possible, as you start with a very small toolbox of abilities to choose from. So you have to gather ressources to get more strategic options. If later that options become available, the game should focus on challenging the decisions you made (What abiites you choose, what armor you bought and so on) and how you make use of them. That does not mean, that ressources should become unlimited or unimportant, but you shouldn't be forced anymore to crawl every stupid box inside a dungeon for copper. (Unless you are the kind of player that enjoys playing Trial of Iron in Super-Hard-Mode with just one hand without looking at your computer monitor.) Both of you argue very extremistic, but I think both of you just want to play a balanced game, not an extremistic one. Oh, and of course there is endgame content. The game even is divided into acts.

 

PS: I think this post is englished very bad. Sorry for that. I hope you understand what I mean.

[Teioh_White]

RPG's getting easier towards the endgame's long been an issue with the genre. Yes, to some degree, it's supposed to happen like that, as often we go from some random orphen to a demi-god. At the same time though, the foes we're fighting are supposedly harder as well. I'd like to struggle more having to go down to hell itself to kill Satan at max level, than I did back on first level fighting a pack of wolves. Often however, it's quite the opposite. I think a big issue is that while the player gets all sorts of cool toys and new tactics as we level, the mobs in most RPG's don't follow suit, and do similar things the entire game, with just better stats/ greater numbers.

 

Of the top of my head, I can't really think of a ton of CRPGs that really get at higher levels. Throne of Baal, perhaps? The various Souls games?

[PrimeJunta]

ToB is laughably, sleep-inducingly easy with certain builds. Haven't played the Souls games though.

 

I think the "inverse difficulty curve" is inherent to cRPG's which feature significant character-building choices and optional content. The only alternative, really, is to level scale everything to Oblivion (pun intended). Either automatically or with hand-crafted difficulty settings that boost higher-level enemies more than lower-level ones, thereby pulling the endgame difficulty up.

 

Reason being, if you balance the endgame for competent completionists who have maxed out optional content (=are at the level cap, have all the best loot, and have a powerful party and know how to use it), it'll be impossibly hard for the great majority of players. So, they balance it for the "average playtester" who is probably actually not all that good at playing the game. 

 

I'm not a fan of level scaling. I'm not a fan of dead-easy endgames either, which is one reason I often don't bother with them at all, once I've finished a game once.

[Teioh_White]

Yeah, that's why I give ToB a 'maybe'. So many ways to just utterly cheese the game at that point, but if I'm trying not to cheese, it was always rougher for me than SoA. The optional thing is def an issue, but I myself am fine with level scaling. I'd trade a bit of 'immersion' for the sake of better gameplay. (I'd also trade up freedom for increased linearity if it led to better gameplay, but that seems to be an incredibly unpopular opinion.)

 

Even then, I imagine a properly designed stat system could minimize such things. Not that I have an example of anything actually pulling that off. (Sorta as you said, these games are largely only going to be finished once by most people, if even that. Not a great deal of Dev Incentive to make a super awesome balanced game that stays great through the entire process, and is replayable. Mostly because the majority of the player base will see that endgame once, if it all.)

 

Should def give the Souls games a shot if you haven't though. I think Dark Souls 1 and 2 (essentially the 2nd and 3rd of a currently 4 game 'series') are out on PC now. Some of the best, if not -the- best, gameplay I've found. Likely not to be as enjoyable now as they were around launch, as it had a semi PvP element running throughout the PvE aspect to add an edge of tension to the gameplay, which I imagine has died down.

[Zenbane]

@Kilburn & Zenbane: What is your problem? I think we agree that the truth lies somewhere in between. In PoE you have too much money available too soon. That does not mean, that you shouldn't be filthy rich at some point in the game, it's just too early. I think what Zenbane tries to say is, that in a game like PoE (maybe in every game?) success shouldn't be a matter of ressources, but of strategy. At the beginning of the game this isn't possible, as you start with a very small toolbox of abilities to choose from. So you have to gather ressources to get more strategic options. If later that options become available, the game should focus on challenging the decisions you made (What abiites you choose, what armor you bought and so on) and how you make use of them. That does not mean, that ressources should become unlimited or unimportant, but you shouldn't be forced anymore to crawl every stupid box inside a dungeon for copper. (Unless you are the kind of player that enjoys playing Trial of Iron in Super-Hard-Mode with just one hand without looking at your computer monitor.) Both of you argue very extremistic, but I think both of you just want to play a balanced game, not an extremistic one. Oh, and of course there is endgame content. The game even is divided into acts.

 

PS: I think this post is englished very bad. Sorry for that. I hope you understand what I mean.

 

Well your choppy English aside, you pretty much described my point. As you stated, only in the early game should players feel the need to search every "box" in a dungeon. However as the game progresses, while some players may still want to do that, the game itself shouldn't require it beyond a certain point. I mean... this isn't the Diablo series where players need to search everywhere for that Godly Sword of Haste, na' mean?

[mosspit]

I think the "inverse difficulty curve" is inherent to cRPG's which feature significant character-building choices and optional content. The only alternative, really, is to level scale everything to Oblivion (pun intended). Either automatically or with hand-crafted difficulty settings that boost higher-level enemies more than lower-level ones, thereby pulling the endgame difficulty up.

 

Reason being, if you balance the endgame for competent completionists who have maxed out optional content (=are at the level cap, have all the best loot, and have a powerful party and know how to use it), it'll be impossibly hard for the great majority of players. So, they balance it for the "average playtester" who is probably actually not all that good at playing the game. 

 

I'm not a fan of level scaling. I'm not a fan of dead-easy endgames either, which is one reason I often don't bother with them at all, once I've finished a game once.

 

Pretty much. It is easier to control the difficulty at the start as the game can project most if not all of the gamer's choices. Towards end game, the progression paths of different gamers will be vastly different. Difficulty here can be thought as a filtering process to stop bad builds from completing the game. However, it risks being too restrictive as to promote boredom.

 

Even then, I imagine a properly designed stat system could minimize such things. Not that I have an example of anything actually pulling that off. (Sorta as you said, these games are largely only going to be finished once by most people, if even that. Not a great deal of Dev Incentive to make a super awesome balanced game that stays great through the entire process, and is replayable. Mostly because the majority of the player base will see that endgame once, if it all.)

 

Should def give the Souls games a shot if you haven't though. I think Dark Souls 1 and 2 (essentially the 2nd and 3rd of a currently 4 game 'series') are out on PC now. Some of the best, if not -the- best, gameplay I've found. Likely not to be as enjoyable now as they were around launch, as it had a semi PvP element running throughout the PvE aspect to add an edge of tension to the gameplay, which I imagine has died down.

I think it is more like getting the AI to make decisions that approach that how an actual human would take in a given situation. It is extremely difficult to code that kind of response, least of all for a game. In the Souls games, it kinda addressed this with the help of human invaders. Also that's why most crpgs inflate stats and enemy numbers to make up for the discrepancy.

 

I only tried Demon Souls. As an arpg, I admit it isn't my cup of tea. The difficulty you can find in arpg games is a little different from a crpg, as they demand different things from the gamer ie reflexes, memorising attack patterns and tell-tale signs etc.

 

And again, it really depends on how one define difficulty in a crpg.

[Sylvus_Moonbow]

I waited until October to purchase Pillars of Eternity, I'm not waiting around to play it a second time. It's just too good, this adventure for fortune and fame!

RAWR!

[sibakruom]

Perhaps some people come from that growing mentality of "quick gratification" from mobile App gaming. People wanna load up once, thumb through something fairly painlessly, then say, "that was cool, whats next?" ... before they go download the next thumb war RPG.

 

Having to take part in the long journey of a multi-patched RPG system is more alluring to the classic style gamers.

 

Being willing to wait for several months after the game's release before starting it up does not exactly spell "quick gratification". And isn't the saying 'games used to be released when they were done' something usually associated with said classic style gamers? Because they sure didn't learn to "take part in the long journey of a multi-patched RPG system" from the classic games.

Edited November 13, 2015 by sibakruom

[Zenbane]

The "quick gratification" characteristic isn't prevalent in the mere fact that someone wants to "wait to play." It comes from the reason behind the desire to wait; sepecifically: some players wish to wait because they want a powerbuild that's guaranteed to remain unaffected by any patches/updates during their 1-time full playthrough, and the content needs to be at its peak because a second playthrough aint an option.

 

The changes (patches) that have been released up til now are far from "complete game overhaul" categorization. We are talking about bug fixes, balance tweaks, and incremental content enhancements. Anyone who realizes this and then concludes, "omg i need to wait til this game stabilizes" is clearly just a thumb war mobile app instant gratification tweaker; who, might I add, likely won't even complete the full PoE campaign even in its most stabilized state. Halfway through there will be another excuse to stop playing, like the folks complaining about micromanaging attacks during Paused Combat.

 

This type of stuff is painfully obvious when you look at the trend of posters on one side of the spectrum complaining about micromanagement, and a totally different trend of posters on the opposite end complaining about how PoE combat is too easy (infinite money and overly effective power builds) - which apparently was made even easier due to the White March.

 

Combat can't be both too difficult to micromanage and too easy to power through, now can it? Clearly these are viewpoints from instant gratification addicts vs die-hard RPG junkies

[Teioh_White]

Well, combat can both be easy and require excessive micro. Micro's not much a pain when you're making decisions, as that's fun. It's a pain when you're just having to manually do the exact same tasks that don't require decision making each fight. An easy example is any fight in this game from 1.X, especially if you wanted to have a portion of the time fire off guns at the start, then swap to melee, then back to guns to start the next fight (or God forbid, multiple guns. That don't manually reload after combat.) Easy things that basic scripts or options could account for, and to a small degree 2.0X has reduced that micro. It can still be reduced further, without any altering of the difficulty of a fight.

 

Basically, forcing me to mindless make a bunch of clicks does not increase the difficulty of the combat, but rather decreases the quality of it. (Not that this game is all mindless micro; it has some good fights that require active decision making. Too much of it though is mindless micro'n the same moves every fight to the point a script could do it with ease).

[Mocker22]

I absolutely love that the devs are constantly looking at balance etc. Yes, this is a single player game so balance has less impact overall but in my experience almost all the changes made have been quite positive. Many classes have improved and I feel like all of the classes are playable within their roles, if not all OPed....chanters may be the exception here. I find them very underwhelming and quite boring to play too boot.

 

You can always tailor classes to your particular likes/dislikes. Avoid classes you find OP. Also try running with less than a full party if you can to increase difficulty. Or Solo.

[mosspit]

Playing with a reduced party is one of the last things I will personally do in PoE, not until I exhausted other options. It is already rare that rpgs nowadays feature 6-man parties (usually they have 4 or less). I really like being able to micro 6 characters through hectic encounters.

[ShadySands]

Yep, I've played through once but I've set the game aside for now until the second half of the xpac and all of following patches are out of the way

[Kilburn]

The "quick gratification" characteristic isn't prevalent in the mere fact that someone wants to "wait to play." It comes from the reason behind the desire to wait; sepecifically: some players wish to wait because they want a powerbuild that's guaranteed to remain unaffected by any patches/updates during their 1-time full playthrough, and the content needs to be at its peak because a second playthrough aint an option.

 

The changes (patches) that have been released up til now are far from "complete game overhaul" categorization. We are talking about bug fixes, balance tweaks, and incremental content enhancements. Anyone who realizes this and then concludes, "omg i need to wait til this game stabilizes" is clearly just a thumb war mobile app instant gratification tweaker; who, might I add, likely won't even complete the full PoE campaign even in its most stabilized state. Halfway through there will be another excuse to stop playing, like the folks complaining about micromanaging attacks during Paused Combat.

 

This type of stuff is painfully obvious when you look at the trend of posters on one side of the spectrum complaining about micromanagement, and a totally different trend of posters on the opposite end complaining about how PoE combat is too easy (infinite money and overly effective power builds) - which apparently was made even easier due to the White March.

 

Combat can't be both too difficult to micromanage and too easy to power through, now can it? Clearly these are viewpoints from instant gratification addicts vs die-hard RPG junkies

 

Some changes are close to a complete overhaul actually. Individual stealth and perception switches from deflection to accuracy are huge changes. If they are making changes like this obviously they have a ways to go in terms of developement in my opinion. I want to play the finished product.

 

It has nothing to do with powerbuilds and everything to do with waiting to see if the game gets it all together.

 

Exp still hasnt been addressed.

Gold doesnt look like it will be addressed.

The game cant follow its own rules: things like this annoy me. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83035-203-zealous-focus-suppresses-blessing/

White march makes it even easier, well im glad I didnt it buy it then because thats the opposite of what Im looking for.

 

I finished Origins. I cant be bothered to finish POE. It gets too easy too quickly.

[Zenbane]

It has nothing to do with powerbuilds and everything to do with waiting to see if the game gets it all together.

 

I kinda sorta get what you are trying to say, but when I disagree I provide some observable context whereas you tend to remain general and vague. "get it all together" sounds like something that belongs inside a Fortune Cookie, na' mean?

 

The other items you listed are not game changing in an overhaul kinda way; and there are Rogue/Stealth builds that allowed for successful playthroughs in spite of any temporary functionality issues.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Zenbane

[LuccA]

Combat can't be both too difficult to micromanage and too easy to power through, now can it? Clearly these are viewpoints from instant gratification addicts vs die-hard RPG junkies

 

The complaints are not on the difficulty of micromanaging, but on how annoying and repetitive it is. One thing does not exclude the other. The combat can be easy and still demand a lot of thoughtless work.

 

Sensuki made a thread discussing how the combat can become easy and repetitive after you got the hang of the micromanaging: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83050-a-query-on-combat-gameplay/, which I think is getting unreasonably bashed by the community. The lackluster combat is a considerable flaw it seems, and we SHOULD encourage discussing solutions to make PoE a better game. 

[Zenbane]

Some things I encounter while playing PoE that I do not see posters consider when proclaiming that combat is "annoying and repetitive"

 

1) I maintain no more than 3 NPC's at a time in my group, along with 2-3 custom Hires

 

2) I switch out NPC's any time I want to follow up on their individual storylines

 

3) I switch out custom Hires any time I want to experiment with a new build/combo

 

This greatly reduces the chance of annoying/repetitive/montonous gameplay tactics. I did this by default because before I came to the forums I honestly thought that this was one of the main ways we were expected to play PoE. We can only hold a party of 6, so with all the NPC choices and ability to purchase Hired Adventurers... how could anyone stick to one and only one thing that causes annoying repetitiveness?

 

More importantly, terms like "annoying" and "repetitive" are highly subjective and such claims on these forums are rarely backed by actual in-game scenarios. And the few times that a highlighted moment is brought up to prove a point about annoying repetitiveness, it is done so in such a way that the author is strategically manipulating the description of the situation in order to prove a point: similar to what Politicians do to prove that unless you vote in their favor, "the terrorists win" lol

 

As far as Sensuki is concerned... I'm fairly certain that anyone using him as a reference point in a discussion will instantly gain -75 Prestige (in a 100 point system). You seems fairly logical and level-headed, so don't let Sensuki's love for Sensuki pollute your intellectual contributions. Even if Sensuki did manage to stumble upon a good idea, it seems to me that his presentation of anything meaningful is completely polluted by the fact that he's jaded. And I assume he is jaded because he spent $200 as a PoE Backer yet no one coded a single one of his ideas.

 

But I digress...

 

I agree that combat and story and balance and overall mechanics can be improved upon in PoE. How those discussions take place on this forum, however, need more much improvement imo

 

 

 

[Lord_Mord]

 

Some changes are close to a complete overhaul actually. Individual stealth and perception switches from deflection to accuracy are huge changes. If they are making changes like this obviously they have a ways to go in terms of developement in my opinion. I want to play the finished product.

 

That's what the players requested. They wouldn't have changed stealth and perception, but everyone complained about it. How could they know, before the release? Most players think, it was a good decision. So, what's wrong about it?

[LuccA]

 

This greatly reduces the chance of annoying/repetitive/montonous gameplay tactics. I did this by default because before I came to the forums I honestly thought that this was one of the main ways we were expected to play PoE. We can only hold a party of 6, so with all the NPC choices and ability to purchase Hired Adventurers... how could anyone stick to one and only one thing that causes annoying repetitiveness?

 

Well, because someone wants to stick with a party of pre-made NPCs, out of attachment or to improve their abilities, which shouldn't be an unespected thing.

 

The point is: a single-player game should force you to play with variation of strategies and play-styles so you can get past it. Instead of having the player meta-game his way so he can find some fun, like "well, let's see how a party of godlike shapeshifting druids will perform!". This can be done in replays, like how achievements work, and replay-value shoudn't be prioritized over the first-playthrough-value (getting back to the topic's main theme).

 

To have to get past dozens of trash mobs in your first playthough is like playing chess, or tennis, or any 1x1 game, against the same adversary over and over again, without any of you improving. It loses it's fun and becomes a huge let down to keep playing the game.

 

If getting hired adventurers and changing your party composition every so often is the only way we can avoid repetitiveness in the game, then we should be forced to do so, by 'having temporary NPC' parts or something like that. Of course, making the encounters more varied and challenging overall is and easier and more efficient solution, so you would be able to have fun and be increasingly challenged with the same party thoughout the whole game.

 

Annoying is indeed a subjective thing, but repetitiveness is not. Obsidian made things more difficult for themselves with the mega-dungeon for example, which honestly I think was a ****ty idea. It's no easy task to make a 17 level dungeon interesting all along, impossible considering the time and budget for PoE's development.

 

 

 

But I digress...

 

Indeed you do. PoE's combat needs more (forced) variation. If it's on party movement, or positioning, or different strategies, personally I haven't played it for a long time to discuss (personally I don't dislike Josh's measures to avoid exploitation of the game's system). But any discussion should be supported, and with logical replies instead of hate-driven ones. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by LuccA

[Zenbane]

Well, because someone wants to stick

 

 

Indeed you do... and therein lies the problem. I consider it a great value that PoE does not rely on a complete replay of the game in order to try variations; whereas you managed to type up this feature in a way that paints it in a negative light. You are literally arguing in favor of remaining stagnant, while chastising PoE for providing features that allow for in-game deviations... while also arguing that combat is too repetitive. Hm?

 

I'm starting to think that you don't really have a strong point here, and instead are playing "rock, paper, scissors" with my posts.

 

The reason I claim that "repetition" is subjective is because the numbers themselves are not constant amongst everyone. I may feel that doing the same thing more than 100 times is too much repetition, whereas you may feel that doing something more than twice is repetitive. As far as I'm concerned, if anyone has played Baldurs Gate, IceWind Dale, or Neverwinter Nights, then they likely should have stayed away from PoE if "repetition" was a concern lol

Edited November 15, 2015 by Zenbane

[rheingold]

I quite like the combat in pillars and I think they are starting to get a handle on class balance as well.

I'm playing original sin enhanced edition now, while I wait for the 2nd part of WM. And, oh my hat is it bad, just bad. I loved Original sin, but the enhanced edition, well, they have fallen into the trap of making changes for the sake of making changes. And very few of them are good, most of them are downright awful. Hopefully pillars won't fall into the same trap.

[Kilburn]

I think the combat is generally really good.

 

I don't understand the point of the double health bar system or why it is better than the traditional way. I also don't like per encounter and per rest. The stamina system from origins was much better. Just let us stack as many modals or use as many abilities as we want if we have the stamina for it like in origins. Obvs it won't happen for this game but maybe for pillars 2.

 

Or if you think that would be super broken like for paladin modals just specifically state that only one aura can be active at a time.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Kilburn

[mosspit]

Endurance and Health bars are meant to complement the supplies resource management for resting. What makes it seem redundant is the fact that resting can be done with not much consequence. It kinda ties in the Health aspect as well as the the per-rest abilities aspect.

 

I have previously suggested ways to make the resource management stricter eg. make some dungeons un-escapeable once entered so the supplies management is more crucial. Then came the objections as this would legitimately have a game-over effect, in which one might need to reload before entering the dungeon if the supplies was wrongly managed. Note that there are some situations where this is already present in the game itself, eg. The drop to lv5 of Endless Path via pit or the final dungeon of Sunless Shadow.

 

At this point, you can also place self-restriction on camping.

Edited November 16, 2015 by mosspit

[anameforobsidian]

I'm waiting for both expansions to come out to do my full party PotD run.  

[Kilburn]

Endurance and Health bars are meant to complement the supplies resource management for resting. What makes it seem redundant is the fact that resting can be done with not much consequence. It kinda ties in the Health aspect as well as the the per-rest abilities aspect.I have previously suggested ways to make the resource management stricter eg. make some dungeons un-escapeable once entered so the supplies management is more crucial. Then came the objections as this would legitimately have a game-over effect, in which one might need to reload before entering the dungeon if the supplies was wrongly managed. Note that there are some situations where this is already present in the game itself, eg. The drop to lv5 of Endless Path via pit or the final dungeon of Sunless Shadow.At this point, you can also place self-restriction on camping.

Sounds good to me. How about making camping supplies finite in potd - they never restock. And all inns are closed for renovation. That would sure shake things up