Non-Kith Party Member?

[LaSpeakeasi]

I like having Krograg the ogre as my body guard in Caed Nua. A lot of the wilder races in PoE are fascinating. Ogres, Xaurips and Vithracks all had characters that stood out, if not downright endearing.

 

Maybe in future expansions/sequels we could get a party members from one of these races?

 

I mean let's be honest. Kith NPCs are never gonna be as good as custom party members, due to their stats alone. The only reason we play pre-made NPCs are because they bring something unique to the table.

 

Thoughts/suggestions?

[abaris]

The only reason we play pre-made NPCs are because they bring something unique to the table.

 

Thoughts/suggestions?

 

Which is a very strong reason for me. Stronger than anything stat related.

[pi2repsion]

No particular opinion here from a story perspective - any companion that is well designed pleases me, and if an ogre fit in, fine. On the other hand, I see no particular reason to have an Ogre just to have an Ogre, and it certainly is much harder to fit in an Ogre into the story than any of the kith; How would people in whatever village/town/church react to an Ogre visiting? How would it conceptually manage to walk through doorways that only reach it to the navel?

 

From a practical perspective, an ogre would make a poor companion. Being much larger than the other party members, you'd run into both the usual texture problems of having to apply something made for figures of roughly the same size to something much bigger or having to make separate textures for large and small, which is always a hassle. And not only are they much larger, while they are bipedal humanoids, their skeleton is rather different... again, a known issue with known solutions.

 

As well, there are the navigation issues, as you'd need to either a) be able to move the ogre around everywhere that somebody else could, which would put limit on how small places were available to move through, or b) make a point out of the ogre not being able to go everywhere, and trying this into the plot and general play progression. And then there's the selection circle question - same size or different? What are the implications?

 

None of these issues are by necessity blockers, but they are amongst the reasons that party members in most games that represent them in a 2D or 3D world have roughly the same size unless there are really good reasons not to, as it is less expensive and easier to design for.

 

It is usually much easier to fit in a character that is smaller than the normal range, due to lack of navigation issues of where it can't go (though there's the reverse question of whether one so small should be able to go through where some others cannot), but still... Unless there's a really good reason, the easiest is to keep them roughly the same size.

 

So from a practical perspective, Xaurips or Vithracks seem much easier to deal with than Ogres. But again... since they would be utterly unfamiliar or considered monsters by the people of the locations where kith lived, the game would have to deal with that or it would be severely immersion breaking.

[Bill Gates' Son]

No particular opinion here from a story perspective - any companion that is well designed pleases me, and if an ogre fit in, fine. On the other hand, I see no particular reason to have an Ogre just to have an Ogre, and it certainly is much harder to fit in an Ogre into the story than any of the kith; How would people in whatever village/town/church react to an Ogre visiting? How would it conceptually manage to walk through doorways that only reach it to the navel?

 

.......

 

So from a practical perspective, Xaurips or Vithracks seem much easier to deal with than Ogres. But again... since they would be utterly unfamiliar or considered monsters by the people of the locations where kith lived, the game would have to deal with that or it would be severely immersion breaking.

 

Judging by the way NPCs n the game treat Death Godlikes or Wild Orlan player characters, they probably wouldn't react at all.

 

But on a serious note, other games usually handled stuff like this before.  In fallout 2, you were prevented from entering Vault City if you had Marcus and Lenny in your party.  Or you couldn't enter 

 

Besides, even if you walked into towns or cities with non kith in your party, I doubt most people will bother you since you're obviously strong enough to kick their asses.  In the white march, most people will make some snide comments towards you for bringing the Devil in the city, but they certainly not going to do anything to get rid of her.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Bill Gates' Son

[Oralaina]

Well, just look at what happens when you hire Korgrak - you have -6 to Caed Nua rep right off the bat!  It's okay with me, because I always prefer to do things like that quest peacefully.  But as a party member, any of the wilders should cause issues with the "normal" populace.  Now, that could make for some REALLY fun RP though!

[Rathlord]

pi2repsion makes good points.

 

I've seen this issue crop up in my personal D&D campaigns- people want to play monster races. That means with every situation we encounter, in addition to tracking personalities and reactions, I also need to consider how every individual is going to react to a goblin, drow, shadar-kai, etc. in their midst. You either do a bunch of work to be ready for that (in video game terms, incredibly expensive and time-consuming) or you ignore it (BG:EE with drow, for instance) and break a lot of immersion. Which then begs the question- why have them at all if people aren't going to react.

 

In a perfect world, I'd be all for this, but given money and time as factors there's a lot of stuff I'd rather see, like the game being more communicative with the player or (please oh please) more options in the AI system.

[mph]

 

No particular opinion here from a story perspective - any companion that is well designed pleases me, and if an ogre fit in, fine. On the other hand, I see no particular reason to have an Ogre just to have an Ogre, and it certainly is much harder to fit in an Ogre into the story than any of the kith; How would people in whatever village/town/church react to an Ogre visiting? How would it conceptually manage to walk through doorways that only reach it to the navel?

 

.......

 

So from a practical perspective, Xaurips or Vithracks seem much easier to deal with than Ogres. But again... since they would be utterly unfamiliar or considered monsters by the people of the locations where kith lived, the game would have to deal with that or it would be severely immersion breaking.

 

 In fallout 2, you were prevented from entering Vault City if you had Marcus and Lenny in your party.  Or you couldn't enter 

 

 

Just a trivia note, but it was possible to get them in if you became the Captain of the Guard (a very hidden option) - you even scored some bonus ammo by bringing Marcus to the doctor in the Vault. The First Citizen wasn't too happy with this, however...

Edited September 18, 2015 by mph

[LaSpeakeasi]

I should also add that compared to Devil of Caroc and Zahua, the original companions aren't 'bland' as some people call them. But they do feel like what we've seen before.

 

I think WM may be an indication that we're moving towards more unconventional character concepts, characters that player NPCs won't be able to realize without scripted storytelling. And I think it's a good thing.

 

In fact, that's my biggest gripe about Eora - it gets the old-school classic feel down, but at the same time doesn't take enough chances, compared to 'contemporary' worlds like Thedas. There are gay people in Thedas. Racism and religious conflicts practically define that world. And it was such a acute representation of the world we live in.

 

The whole Ethoas-Margran thing and intermingle of races in Eora seems like a missed opportunity to me.

[Heijoushin]

Well, I'm open to this. And the Devil of Caroc proves that Obsidian can get creative race/appearance wise.

 

But before we look at monsters companions, we first need:

1) Proper reactions to the current races.

2) More companions in general. 

[abaris]

Well, I'm open to this. And the Devil of Caroc proves that Obsidian can get creative race/appearance wise.

 

But before we look at monsters companions, we first need:

1) Proper reactions to the current races.

2) More companions in general. 

 

More than the 9 we already have?

 

Seriously, man. I hardly manage to give everyone we have so far, a ride. Most of them sit at home, while I stick with my favorites. Both in terms of personality as in combat value.

 

Proper reaction n the other hand, is a valid point. I would love to see people react to a Bleak Walker or a priest of Skaen, just to give two examples. Especially within the party, since - at least - Durance should have an opinion.

[Infinitron]

Can't do a Xaurip companion, they'll be accused of ripping off Baldurs Gate: Siege of Dragonspear.

 

A Vithrack companion could be cool for a future game where we have some sort of "Underdark" adventure.

[Heijoushin]

 

Well, I'm open to this. And the Devil of Caroc proves that Obsidian can get creative race/appearance wise.

 

But before we look at monsters companions, we first need:

1) Proper reactions to the current races.

2) More companions in general. 

 

More than the 9 we already have?

 

Seriously, man. I hardly manage to give everyone we have so far, a ride. Most of them sit at home, while I stick with my favorites. Both in terms of personality as in combat value.

 

Proper reaction n the other hand, is a valid point. I would love to see people react to a Bleak Walker or a priest of Skaen, just to give two examples. Especially within the party, since - at least - Durance should have an opinion.

 

 

Okay, I hear you. If you want to do everyone's quests, then there are already a lot to get around to.

 

But if you play the game multiple times, then it would be nice to be able to say "Okay, I need a fighter. Do I want to use Eder, or fighter B this time round?"

[pi2repsion]

Can't do a Xaurip companion, they'll be accused of ripping off Baldurs Gate: Siege of Dragonspear.

Pfft. Xaurips are D&D Kobolds of POE, which makes Deekin Scalesinger from Neverwinter Nights: SOU and HOTU the obvious comparison.

[Rosveen]

Do you think they're going to let a vithrac inside the Ducal Palace?

[abaris]

 

 

 

 

 

But if you play the game multiple times, then it would be nice to be able to say "Okay, I need a fighter. Do I want to use Eder, or fighter B this time round?"

 

 

As it happens, I find myself using Eder less than I used to use him in previous playthroughs. The reason for this being a very well equipped and buffed Zouha and an equally buffed Pallegina. With the White march, Pallegina really took off, with the equipment to be found there. Fully equipped and buffed, she gives Eder a run for his money, which wasn't the case in the vanilla game.

[LaSpeakeasi]

Do you think they're going to let a vithrac inside the Ducal Palace?

Did you read Vithrack's encyclopedia entry? They are extremely intelligent and not dangerous unless threatened. If their birthrate weren't so low they could very well be a Kith race. They have the sentience and technology to match.

 

But I understand your question. It's actually pretty easier to address. Just give a dialog option where the PC says, "That's my pet Xaurip / Vithrack / Ogre." Now queue sarcastic banter. If the PC doesn't requirement to trigger the dialog, guards will attack on sight.

 

Other RPGs have done it very well. Shadowrun: HK came to mind. Every mission people will react to the ghoul in your party. NWN was one, altho by today's standards Deekin was not very well fleshed out. Even BG had Viconia.

[Elric Galad]

By the way, Vithrack are more or less natural cipher. If Grieving Mother can appear as a peasant, a Vithrack NPC could appear as an innocent elvish maiden.

 

May the force be with you.

[Bill Gates' Son]

 

Well, I'm open to this. And the Devil of Caroc proves that Obsidian can get creative race/appearance wise.

 

But before we look at monsters companions, we first need:

1) Proper reactions to the current races.

2) More companions in general. 

 

More than the 9 we already have?

 

Seriously, man. I hardly manage to give everyone we have so far, a ride. Most of them sit at home, while I stick with my favorites. Both in terms of personality as in combat value.

 

Proper reaction n the other hand, is a valid point. I would love to see people react to a Bleak Walker or a priest of Skaen, just to give two examples. Especially within the party, since - at least - Durance should have an opinion.

 

 

Baldur's gate 2 manage to get away with 17 companions.     It's certainly helpful for the people who enjoy multiple playthoughs.

 

From what I played of White March, Obsidian is actually getting better with reactions though.  My priest of Berath was actually able to be friends with a group of Fampyr.  I assume any other character would have been attacked on sight.  Small changes like this is a great start.

 

 

Can't do a Xaurip companion, they'll be accused of ripping off Baldurs Gate: Siege of Dragonspear.

 

How can you forget Deekin, your faithful kobold companion in both NWN expansions?

Edited September 18, 2015 by Bill Gates' Son

[Infinitron]

Well, I certainly haven't forgotten him. But it's a different thing if you do it at the same time as a recently released game.

[LaSpeakeasi]

Pretty sure there's enough room for 2 kobolds xaurips to coexist in the world of videogames. The friendly kobold's always been such a popular trope in D&D anyway I'm surprised not more games have done it already.

 

Plus, if Obsidian were worried about comparison to the BG franchise they shouldn't have made this game at all should they?

 

The only difference between rip-offs and tributes are the latter being done well.

[abaris]

You know what they say about opinions. Can' repeat it here, since it includes a dirty word, but it's just opinions what everybody voices here. Me too for that matter. And I couldn't care less about companion Xaurips, Kobolds or whatever. strikes everybodies fancy. I'm content with what we have. Not in terms of everything being perfect. But in general, I really don't need outlandish creatures in the party.

Edited September 18, 2015 by abaris

[gkathellar]

Sentient Black Ooze wizard gogogo

[globalCooldown]

Generally, yeah, please prioritize reactions to existing kith races.

 

But if you WERE to have a non-kith companion, you could make a strong case for vithrack. Vithrack have natural cipher abilities, and ciphers can disguise themselves with a "caul" that makes other people ignore them. Just look at Grieving Mother.

 

If your party member has a caul, people are gonna ignore them, even if they're a freaking spider-monster.

Edited September 19, 2015 by globalCooldown

[Elric Galad]

The fascinating thing about Xaurip is their bond to dragons. Kobolt were linked to dragons, but not to the same extend. They often serve dragons but they can have autonomous "societies". Their bond to dragons is mostly a pride issue : they are one of the weakest race, ans their only racial pride is their link to one of the strongest one.

 

For Xaurips, it seems to be a mix of religion and biology. They are linked to dragons almost as drones to a queen bee. But they are sentient beings, so this biological devotion has been converted into a religion. This can be spotted by the number of priests and paladins in their ranks. This is a good twist in the usual recurring "hive mind" of so much fantasy and sci-fi universes. I will not be surprised if we discover that Xaurip, even if able to reproduce by themselves, depends on special dragon hormon for fertility. Their lore really seems to be about a symbiosis with dragon.

 

Their biological bond is their fate, and this fate prevents them from being a Kith race, because in a certain way it kills their freedom of acting.

 

 

Vithrack are also a good twist about the "dangerous alien". They have such a different mindset that they are barely able to recognize Kiths as intelligent beings. At the same time, they are so much more powerful than Kiths that they always frighten me.

 

Their plot twist is that contrary to usual aliens, they can't reproduce quickly. This makes their background very sad.

 

But what if they manage to find a way to reproduce quickly ? They may threaten all other sentient beings. They will enslave them, treat them as animals, or kill them. They will not hesitate too much before doing this because they don't have much empathy for Kiths and think they are animals.

 

So my PC usually exterminates all Vithracks he meets. Too dangerous for the future of the Kiths. But at the same times, their story is so sad that he does this with regrets. And this ambiguous feeling is just so nice ^^

 

 

Ogres are quite similar to usual ogres. Unable to unite because they are too brutal. The difference comes from the fact they not stupid as usual ogres. They fate is their brutality that kills their freedom of acting like dragon bond kills it for Xaurips.

 

They are unable to make a society because they just can't bear it. They are like primeval beings, slaves of primeval instincts, but intelligent enough to feel this limitation and express it. The lines from the Dryford ogre makes me feel he was almost jealous about weak humans whose society condamns him to live like a pariah, meanwhile he was absolutely unwilling to be a part of any society. PoE has so much good writing, even when depicting brutal humanoids (and I haven't met White March ogres yet).

Edited September 19, 2015 by Elric Galad

[gkathellar]

Their biological bond is their fate, and this fate prevents them from being a Kith race, because in a certain way it kills their freedom of acting.

 

Well, no. The main issue is that they can't speak kith languages, due to the structure of their jaws and throat.